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Cooper Eudaemon
DUST University Ivy League
152
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Posted - 2014.01.26 19:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Like a lot of people, I believe the new weapons, the Rail Rifle and the Combat Rifle, were OP. That the Assault Rifle (Plasma Rifle!) and the Scrambler Rifle were UP.
But I've noticed that I'm still dying as quickly and easily against the AR and SR as I do against the RR and CR. So, I decided to take a closer look, and do some light number crunching.
The STD AR does 34 HP of damage at 750 RPM, for a DPS of 425 HP/S The STD RR does 55 HP of damage at 461.54 RPM, for a DPS of 422.95 HP/S, not counting the charge time The STD SR does 72 HP of damage at 705.88 RPM, for a DPS of 847.008 HP/S, not counting the semi-automatic fire mode The STD CR does 32 HP of damage at 1200 RPM, for a DPS of 640, not counting the burst fire mode
Obviously, with different fire modes, it's difficult to compare these weapons. The only way to make a fair comparison of the Plasma, Rail, Scrambler, and Combat Rifles is to look at the Assault variants for each.
The ADV AR does 35.7 HP of damage at 750 RPM, for a DPS of 445.25 HP/S The ADV Assault RR does 45.04 HP of damage at 600 RPM, for a DPS of 450.4 HP/S The ADV Assault SR does 37.8 HP of damage at 705.88 RPM, for a DPS of 445.78 HP/S The ADV Assault CR does 22 HP of damage at 1200 RPM, for a DPS of 440 HP/S
That's right, just 10.4 HP/S difference between the highest and lowest DPS. Differences in damage types aside, if you shoot someone for the same length of time, you'll deal very, very close to the same amount of damage. Or will you?
Accuracy is a squirrely stat. I assume the number indicates a percentage of rounds that will hit at a given (unknown) range. I have no idea if it applies to hip-fire, ADS (Aim Down Sights), or both. What the hell, let's look at it anyway.
The ADV AR hits 56.14% of the time, for a DPS of 249.96 HP/S The ADV Assault RR hits 58.35% of the time, for a DPS of 262.81 HP/S The ADV Assault SR hits 57.73% of the time, for a DPS of 257.35 HP/S The ADV Assault CR hits 59.86% of the time, for a DPS of 263.38 HP/S The gap widens, to a 13.424 HP/S difference between the highest and lowest DPS. The difference in accuracy, btw, is 3.72%
So, where are some differences? The prices.
ADV AR 10,770 ISK ADV Assault RR 17,625 ISK ADV Assault SR 17,625 ISK ADV Assault CR 17,625 ISK
Advantage, Assault (Plasma!) Rifle.
The skills
ADV AR requires Assault Rifle Operation III (15% reduction to kick) ADV Assault RR requires Rail Rifle Operation IV (20% reduction to kick) ADV Assault SR requires Scrambler Rifle Operation IV (no recoil, so 20% bonus to cooldown speed) ADV Assault CR requires Combat Rifle Operation IV (20% reduction to kick)
Advantage, Assault (Plasma!) Rifle. The Assault Combat Rifle description quotes "increased kick," and the Assault Rail Rifle loses "range and stability," so the extra 5% reduction likely means equal recoil to the ADV AR--and at level V, the AR should in theory have less recoil than either the ARR or ACR.
So why is everyone raging about the AR being so weak, and the CR or RR being so strong?
It has to be the ranges.
The ADV AR has an optimum range from 0 to 41 meters The ADV Assault RR has an optimum range from 0 to 68 meters* The ADV Assault SR has an optimum range from 0 to 52 meters The ADV Assault CR has an optimum range from 0 to 52 meters (stats from https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40886 ) That's a 27 meter difference between the highest and lowest ranges. *Despite the weapon description implying a shorter range, this is identical to the normal ADV RR.
Or... Is it the other way around? Is everything else too similar, except for the range? It's been described best both here, and here.
So, this is what I propose: Flatten the ranges, and make the "assault" variant the default for all races, priced the same, requiring the same skill level. Then, give each race a meaningful variant. Caldari - Tactical Rail Rifle (lower RPM, lower hip-fire accuracy, longer range, higher alpha [per shot damage]) Amarr - Charge Scrambler Rifle (either semi-auto and higher alpha, or auto and lower alpha, plus charged shot) Minmatar - Burst Combat Rifle (three or five-round bursts, higher alpha, higher accuracy) Gallente - Breach Assault Rifle (higher alpha, lower range, higher spread--to be more effective in short range)
I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums...
I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
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Waiyu Ren
Immortal Guides
16
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Posted - 2014.01.26 19:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Nice amount of thought you put into the subject Cooper, +1.
I have a debate coming though... But only a small one.
I personally like the difference in combat doctrine between the races. The suits are looking like they are beginning to be quite tightly balanced (not including fittings) while maintaining their unique flavours. Weapons not so much..... But given that two of them are new, well yeah. Instead, i would like to see each race specialise in a variant, and for each to have something truly different to offer. At the moment only the ScrR strikes me as actually unique..... The others look like just statistics teaks of the AR.
Each race would of course get a full set of variants for their own, but their main would be stronger in that specific role than the other races "knock-off" variants.
Who gets which, i don't know. Maybe Caldari = Tactical, Minimatar = Burst, Amarr = Assault, Gallente = Breach? (personally i don't want anyone to get breach. Breach just seems really bad all round.)
Edit: I just re-read and realised i was agreeing with you rather than debating. Reading comprehension fail..... |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
8478
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Posted - 2014.01.26 19:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
AR and RR are both automatic, so they can be compared. The RR is OP, it has basically th same DPS as the AR, but with EXTREMELY higher range, and its spool up time can easily be countered by tapping R1 repeatedly for pre-spooling if you know where yur enemy is coming from (which is often the case with scanners.
SCR would be overpowered if it was not for the overheat mechanic; you can fire around 15 quick shots before being damaged and paralyzed by overheat (almost certain death). Also yu can't use the RPM listed on the SCR for DPS because it only fires as fast as you can tap; you have to measure how fast you yourself can fire and use that as an ROF stat, so your DPS stat is grossly unrepresentative.
I'm honestly not sure about the CR yet, I need to do more tests and math to reach a conclusion (also figure out how fast it can be tapped, but not tapping before one burst is complete so no tap is wasted).
I'm pretty sure that's not how accuracy works.
Ranges have to be different, flattening ranges would not make sense. Blaster weapons (like the AR) are supposed to have the shortest range.
Projectile weapons (like the CR) are supposed to have the second shortest range
Laser weapons (like the SCR) are supposed to have the second longest range.
Rail weapons (like the RR) are supposed to have the longest range.
Just balance out the ranges with DPS. For example, the AR should have very high DPS to compensate for its inferior ranges, and the RR should have low DPS to compensate for its high ranges.
The AR is cheaper because "assault" is its base variant, so of curse its cheaper. It doesn't make the AR special, is just how variants work. Base rifle variant is always cheaper, but the extra rifles always require more skills and more ISK.
The assault rifle is the assault variant Just like the scrambler rifle is its own tactical variant Just the rail rifle is its own breach variant (not tactical) Just like the combat rifle is its own burst variant
Each race's rifle is supposed to have a different kind of behavior (assault, breach, burst, tactical) as its base variant. In addition to each base variant, they are each supposed to get variants to mimic the other race's rifles. For example: the rail rifle has an assault variant to mimic the assault rifle, the assault rifle has a burst variant to mimic the combat rifle, etc. Each rifle will eventually have a variant to mimic the others, though right now most of them only have assault variants. This information is from a CCP developer, CCP Remnant. Here is a link.
Your variant plan would ruin the unique flavor of each of the rifles. I don't support it.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Justin Tymes
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
647
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Posted - 2014.01.26 19:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's not just Rifles you have to balance them with everything else in the game. |
Bojo The Mighty
L.O.T.I.S.
2903
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Posted - 2014.01.26 19:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301
You should consider range. DPS is one thing, applying it is another. If all the assault variants outdps and outrange the AR the AR by relation is weakest. Even if the DPS gap is small they are applying that DPS where an AR can not.
Check out latest BSOTT Guide
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
341
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Posted - 2014.01.26 20:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cooper Eudaemon wrote:Like a lot of people, I believe the new weapons, the Rail Rifle and the Combat Rifle, were OP. That the Assault Rifle (Plasma Rifle!) and the Scrambler Rifle were UP. But I've noticed that I'm still dying as quickly and easily against the AR and SR as I do against the RR and CR. So, I decided to take a closer look, and do some light number crunching. The STD AR does 34 HP of damage at 750 RPM, for a DPS of 425 HP/S The STD RR does 55 HP of damage at 461.54 RPM, for a DPS of 422.95 HP/S, not counting the charge time The STD SR does 72 HP of damage at 705.88 RPM, for a DPS of 847.008 HP/S, not counting the semi-automatic fire mode The STD CR does 32 HP of damage at 1200 RPM, for a DPS of 640, not counting the burst fire mode Obviously, with different fire modes, it's difficult to compare these weapons. The only way to make a fair comparison of the Plasma, Rail, Scrambler, and Combat Rifles is to look at the Assault variants for each. The ADV AR does 35.7 HP of damage at 750 RPM, for a DPS of 445.25 HP/S The ADV Assault RR does 45.04 HP of damage at 600 RPM, for a DPS of 450.4 HP/S The ADV Assault SR does 37.8 HP of damage at 705.88 RPM, for a DPS of 445.78 HP/S The ADV Assault CR does 22 HP of damage at 1200 RPM, for a DPS of 440 HP/S That's right, just 10.4 HP/S difference between the highest and lowest DPS. Differences in damage types aside, if you shoot someone for the same length of time, you'll deal very, very close to the same amount of damage. Or will you? Accuracy is a squirrely stat. I assume the number indicates a percentage of rounds that will hit at a given (unknown) range. I have no idea if it applies to hip-fire, ADS (Aim Down Sights), or both. What the hell, let's look at it anyway. The ADV AR hits 56.14% of the time, for a DPS of 249.96 HP/S The ADV Assault RR hits 58.35% of the time, for a DPS of 262.81 HP/S The ADV Assault SR hits 57.73% of the time, for a DPS of 257.35 HP/S The ADV Assault CR hits 59.86% of the time, for a DPS of 263.38 HP/S The gap widens, to a 13.424 HP/S difference between the highest and lowest DPS. The difference in accuracy, btw, is 3.72% So, where are some differences? The prices. ADV AR 10,770 ISK ADV Assault RR 17,625 ISK ADV Assault SR 17,625 ISK ADV Assault CR 17,625 ISK Advantage, Assault (Plasma!) Rifle. The skills ADV AR requires Assault Rifle Operation III (15% reduction to kick) ADV Assault RR requires Rail Rifle Operation IV (20% reduction to kick) ADV Assault SR requires Scrambler Rifle Operation IV (no recoil, so 20% bonus to cooldown speed) ADV Assault CR requires Combat Rifle Operation IV (20% reduction to kick) Advantage, Assault (Plasma!) Rifle. The Assault Combat Rifle description quotes "increased kick," and the Assault Rail Rifle loses "range and stability," so the extra 5% reduction likely means equal recoil to the ADV AR--and at level V, the AR should in theory have less recoil than either the ARR or ACR. So why is everyone raging about the AR being so weak, and the CR or RR being so strong? It has to be the ranges. The ADV AR has an optimum range from 0 to 41 meters The ADV Assault RR has an optimum range from 0 to 68 meters* The ADV Assault SR has an optimum range from 0 to 52 meters The ADV Assault CR has an optimum range from 0 to 52 meters (stats from https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40886 ) That's a 27 meter difference between the highest and lowest ranges. *Despite the weapon description implying a shorter range, this is identical to the normal ADV RR. Or... Is it the other way around? Is everything else too similar, except for the range? It's been described best both here, and here.So, this is what I propose: Flatten the ranges, and make the "assault" variant the default for all races, priced the same, requiring the same skill level. Then, give each race a meaningful variant. Caldari - Tactical Rail Rifle (lower RPM, lower hip-fire accuracy, longer range, higher alpha [per shot damage]) Amarr - Charge Scrambler Rifle (either semi-auto and higher alpha, or auto and lower alpha, plus charged shot) Minmatar - Burst Combat Rifle (three or five-round bursts, higher alpha, higher accuracy) Gallente - Breach Assault Rifle (higher alpha, lower range, higher spread--to be more effective in short range)
And AGAIN AGAIN AND AGAIN. Rifles are balanced EACH OTHER.
But not with the ENTIRE GAME. It's not balanced with DROPSUITS. NOT WITH OTHER PRIMARY WEAPONS. AND NOT WITH THE ENTIRE WORLD.
Sorry got pissed off. |
Mejt0
Made in Poland... E-R-A
85
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Posted - 2014.01.26 20:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Emm why you write ~50% hit time on each gun? Everyone hits 90-100% its hard to miss. And RR too good. After .8 heavies with RR/CR will be king of the hill |
Waiyu Ren
Immortal Guides
16
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Posted - 2014.01.26 20:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Each race's rifle is supposed to have a different kind of behavior (assault, breach, burst, tactical) as its base variant. This information is from a CCP developer, CCP Remnant. Here is a link.
Hey! That's good to know. I'm glad that it seems like they did have a plan all along, though yeah.... It needs more work. At the moment i look at the guns and think "Do i want to skill into a Scrambler for something different, or stick with the AR/CR/RR."
Personally i feel that the RR should be tactical. It has the range, it has the accuracy. It shouldn't be a CqC weapon at all... And i just don't understand the CR.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Your variant plan would ruin the unique flavor of each of the rifles. I don't support it.
EDIT: Even if you did turn all the other base variants into special variants, the AR would be screwed with its variant. The breach AR is one of the worst guns in the game, the current base RR (which you incorrectly called a "tactical") would still be overpowered, etc. It doesn't fix the balance issues, it would just shift them to the variants.
But they aren't unique enough for me to notice their uniqueness.... :(
Breach needs love, it's weird and virtually useless.
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Fire of Prometheus
Alpha Response Command
3185
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Posted - 2014.01.26 20:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Finally someone who knows what's up!!!!!!
A mighty +1 to you good sir!!!!
Commando 6 // A.R.C Commander // C.E.O of Alpha Response Command
A Balac's and a Thale's.....What's on your commando?
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
8478
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 20:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Waiyu Ren wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Each race's rifle is supposed to have a different kind of behavior (assault, breach, burst, tactical) as its base variant. This information is from a CCP developer, CCP Remnant. Here is a link. Hey! That's good to know. I'm glad that it seems like they did have a plan all along, though yeah.... It needs more work. At the moment i look at the guns and think "Do i want to skill into a Scrambler for something different, or stick with the AR/CR/RR." Personally i feel that the RR should be tactical. It has the range, it has the accuracy. It shouldn't be a CqC weapon at all... And i just don't understand the CR. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Your variant plan would ruin the unique flavor of each of the rifles. I don't support it.
EDIT: Even if you did turn all the other base variants into special variants, the AR would be screwed with its variant. The breach AR is one of the worst guns in the game, the current base RR (which you incorrectly called a "tactical") would still be overpowered, etc. It doesn't fix the balance issues, it would just shift them to the variants. But they aren't unique enough for me to notice their uniqueness.... :( Breach needs love, it's weird and virtually useless. Tactical = semi-auto Breach = low ROF but automatic Burst = burst fire Assault = high ROF automatic
Are you saying you want the RR to be semi-automatic (tap R1 for each shot)? The SCR is already semi-auto and tactical, what would you want to see happened to it if its no longer the tactical one? or do you want both to be tactical?
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Justin Tymes
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
647
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Posted - 2014.01.26 20:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Also, I thought those AR variants before 1.7 were just placeholders, and were suppose to be removed when the real ones came out in 1.7. |
Waiyu Ren
Immortal Guides
17
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Posted - 2014.01.26 20:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
I would like the RR to do more alpha, but have less dps. I look at the Scrambler and think "That's cool, it has an alpha shot that takes skill to use effectively, but a serious downside if you just try to spray it." The RR spool time is not doing it's intended job.... As someone said (you?), you can just tap the trigger to keep it spooled. Even just a progressive damage drop-off when firing in automatic, to simulate the capacitor draining from repeated firing would be good, requiring people to spool between bursts to keep it at its best dps.
As for the CR, I have no idea still. I don't use it so i can't comment. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
8478
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 20:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:Also, I thought those AR variants before 1.7 were just placeholders, and were suppose to be removed when the real ones came out in 1.7. Remnant said they wont be removed, and each rifle will have the complete set of variants (counting what their base variants already are).
Example, the SCR will one day have: SCR = (tactical) base variant [already have] Assault SCR = mimics the AR [already have] Burst SCR = mimics the CR [currently missing] Breach SCR = mimics the RR [currently missing]
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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HYENAKILLER X
AGGRESSIVE TYPE
506
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 20:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
I really liked the info but I really think the only real need is increase ar range.
Great post though!
You are welcome for my leadership
*Proven Aggressive Type
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Waiyu Ren
Immortal Guides
17
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Posted - 2014.01.26 20:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Another thing that bugs me, though it is purely superficial and has no impact on balance, is that weapons never deal their stated damage.
Every weapon actually deals X +/- Y, depending on whether it is better at reducing shield or armour, and what each round is hitting at the time... But Y is an invisible stat.
Just a small tweak, but could i see the damage vs each listed on the weapon itself, rather than have to look it up on the forums? Pretty please? :) |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1728
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 21:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
I don't get it, you have all the data in front of you but you can't see how outclassed the AR is.
Armor and Shields are not the same!
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Cooper Eudaemon
DUST University Ivy League
158
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 00:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301
You should consider range. DPS is one thing, applying it is another. If all the assault variants outdps and outrange the AR the AR by relation is weakest. Even if the DPS gap is small they are applying that DPS where an AR can not.
I did, and I think the ranges should be flattened. Currently, there's a difference of 27 meters between the shortest assault (Gallente) and the longest (Caldari), which is the only major difference between the four assault-type rifles.
Among assault-type rifles I don't think we should see more than a 10 meter difference between the shortest and longest ranges.
I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums...
I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
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Sextus Hardcock
0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
218
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Posted - 2014.01.27 00:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Balancing an automatic weapon 101
Long range? Go with lower DPS Short range? Go with higher DPS
DPS of the RR is very close to the AR, while having double the effective range.
math
I am the sixth son
Chrome Vet
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Monkey MAC
Lost Millennium
1675
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Posted - 2014.01.27 01:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cooper Eudaemon wrote:Like a lot of people, I believed the new weapons, the Rail Rifle and the Combat Rifle, were OP. That the Assault Rifle (Plasma Rifle!) and the Scrambler Rifle were UP. But I've noticed that I'm still dying as quickly and easily against the AR and SR as I do against the RR and CR. So, I decided to take a closer look, and do some light number crunching. The STD AR does 34 HP of damage at 750 RPM, for a DPS of 425 HP/S The STD RR does 55 HP of damage at 461.54 RPM, for a DPS of 422.95 HP/S, not counting the charge time The STD SR does 72 HP of damage at 705.88 RPM, for a DPS of 847.008 HP/S, not counting the semi-automatic fire mode The STD CR does 32 HP of damage at 1200 RPM, for a DPS of 640, not counting the burst fire mode Obviously, with different fire modes, it's difficult to compare these weapons. The only way to make a fair comparison of the Plasma, Rail, Scrambler, and Combat Rifles is to look at the Assault variants for each. The ADV AR does 35.7 HP of damage at 750 RPM, for a DPS of 445.25 HP/S The ADV Assault RR does 45.04 HP of damage at 600 RPM, for a DPS of 450.4 HP/S The ADV Assault SR does 37.8 HP of damage at 705.88 RPM, for a DPS of 445.78 HP/S The ADV Assault CR does 22 HP of damage at 1200 RPM, for a DPS of 440 HP/S That's right, just 10.4 HP/S difference between the highest and lowest DPS. Differences in damage types aside, if you shoot someone for the same length of time, you'll deal very, very close to the same amount of damage. Or will you? Accuracy is a squirrely stat. I assume the number indicates a percentage of rounds that will hit at a given (unknown) range. I have no idea if it applies to hip-fire, ADS (Aim Down Sights), or both. What the hell, let's look at it anyway. The ADV AR hits 56.14% of the time, for a DPS of 249.96 HP/S (Hybrid Plasma, +10% S -10% A) The ADV Assault RR hits 58.35% of the time, for a DPS of 262.81 HP/S (Hybrid Rail, -10% S, +10% A) The ADV Assault SR hits 57.73% of the time, for a DPS of 257.35 HP/S (Laser Pulse, +20% S -20% A) The ADV Assault CR hits 59.86% of the time, for a DPS of 263.38 HP/S (Projectile, -5% S +10% A) The gap widens, to a 13.424 HP/S difference between the highest and lowest DPS. The difference in accuracy, btw, is 3.72% So, where are some differences? The prices. ADV AR 10,770 ISK 47 CPU 6 PG ADV Assault RR 17,625 ISK 41 CPU 12 PG ADV Assault SR 17,625 ISK 48 CPU 12 PG ADV Assault CR 17,625 ISK 43 CPU 4 PG Advantage, Assault (Plasma!) Rifle, honorable mention to Combat Rifle. The skills ADV AR requires Assault Rifle Operation III (15% reduction to kick) ADV Assault RR requires Rail Rifle Operation IV (20% reduction to kick) ADV Assault SR requires Scrambler Rifle Operation IV (no recoil, so 20% bonus to cooldown speed) ADV Assault CR requires Combat Rifle Operation IV (20% reduction to kick) Advantage, Assault (Plasma!) Rifle. The Assault Combat Rifle description quotes "increased kick," and the Assault Rail Rifle loses "range and stability," so the extra 5% reduction likely means equal recoil to the ADV AR--and at level V, the AR should in theory have less recoil than either the ARR or ACR. So why is everyone raging about the AR being so weak, and the CR or RR being so strong? It has to be the ranges. The ADV AR has an optimum range from 0 to 41 meters The ADV Assault RR has an optimum range from 0 to 68 meters* The ADV Assault SR has an optimum range from 0 to 52 meters The ADV Assault CR has an optimum range from 0 to 52 meters (stats from https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40886 ) That's a 27 meter difference between the highest and lowest ranges. *Despite the weapon description implying a shorter range, this is identical to the normal ADV RR. Or... Is it the other way around? Is everything else too similar, except for the range? It's been described best both here, and here.So, this is what I propose: Flatten the ranges, and make the "assault" variant the default for all races, priced the same, requiring the same skill level. Then, give each race a meaningful variant. NOTE: names do not match current conventions Caldari - Tactical Rail Rifle (lower RPM, lower hip-fire accuracy, longer range, higher alpha [per shot damage]) Amarr - Charge Scrambler Rifle (either semi-auto and higher alpha, or auto and lower alpha, plus charged shot) Minmatar - Burst Combat Rifle (three or five-round bursts, higher alpha, higher accuracy) Gallente - Breach Assault Rifle (higher alpha, lower range, higher spread--to be more effective in short range) TL;DR Comparing racial variant weapons is apples to oranges. The default rifle for all races should be Assault type, then each race should get its own unique variant. 1) Don't flatten the ranges-thats the whole point of the 4 races 2)Rifles are only balanced against other rifles or HROF weaponry, what about the 150DPS mass driver, or theshotgun that can't killat >5m, or the lwser rifle, or the flaylock, no other weapon compares to the RAR and thats why they are unbalanced.
Tanks 514
I told you, I bloody well told you.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
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Cooper Eudaemon
DUST University Ivy League
158
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Posted - 2014.01.27 01:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Tactical = semi-auto Breach = low ROF but automatic Burst = burst fire Assault = high ROF automatic
Are you saying you want the RR to be semi-automatic (tap R1 for each shot)? The SCR is already semi-auto and tactical, what would you want to see happened to it if its no longer the tactical one? or do you want both to be tactical?
I used the terms differently than how they're currently applied, in order to get four unique racial variants while excluding Assault as a racial type--and this is the crux of the matter.
What I believe is, all of the current grief is because the rifles are backwards. The Caldari, Amarr, and Minmatar rifles all start with a specialised version of their rifles, while the Gallente start with the assault type. You have to skill higher, and pay more ISK, to use the assault versions of the Rail, Scrambler, or Combat Rifles, and as I've shown here, they perform almost identically to the normal Advanced Assault Rifle, which makes them a bad investment. At the same time, no current alternate version of the Gallente Assault Rifle is notably better than the assault, nor is there a version that is as unique or compelling as the normal versions of the Rail, Scrambler, and Combat Rifles. This leaves the Gallente Assault Rifle a poor cousin to the other races' rifles--so I think we should turn the whole thing around.
Let the Assault version be the default type for all four races (and re-name the Gallente rifle the Plasma Rifle). Then, at the Advanced level, give each race its own special variant. I believe this is a much more balanced solution. I also think having four versions of each races' rifle would be not only excessive, but boring, in the end.
I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums...
I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
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Cooper Eudaemon
DUST University Ivy League
158
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Posted - 2014.01.27 01:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Waiyu Ren wrote:Another thing that bugs me, though it is purely superficial and has no impact on balance, is that weapons never deal their stated damage.
Every weapon actually deals X +/- Y, depending on whether it is better at reducing shield or armour, and what each round is hitting at the time... But Y is an invisible stat.
Just a small tweak, but could i see the damage vs each listed on the weapon itself, rather than have to look it up on the forums? Pretty please? :)
Done and done. ^o^
You can also go here: http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Weapons_Overview
I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums...
I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
8536
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Posted - 2014.01.27 02:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cooper Eudaemon wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Tactical = semi-auto Breach = low ROF but automatic Burst = burst fire Assault = high ROF automatic
Are you saying you want the RR to be semi-automatic (tap R1 for each shot)? The SCR is already semi-auto and tactical, what would you want to see happened to it if its no longer the tactical one? or do you want both to be tactical?
I used the terms differently than how they're currently applied, in order to get four unique racial variants while excluding Assault as a racial type--and this is the crux of the matter. What I believe is, all of the current grief is because the rifles are backwards. The Caldari, Amarr, and Minmatar rifles all start with a specialised version of their rifles, while the Gallente start with the assault type. You have to skill higher, and pay more ISK, to use the assault versions of the Rail, Scrambler, or Combat Rifles, and as I've shown here, they perform almost identically to the normal Advanced Assault Rifle, which makes them a bad investment. At the same time, no current alternate version of the Gallente Assault Rifle is notably better than the assault, nor is there a version that is as unique or compelling as the normal versions of the Rail, Scrambler, and Combat Rifles. This leaves the Gallente Assault Rifle a poor cousin to the other races' rifles--so I think we should turn the whole thing around. Let the Assault version be the default type for all four races (and re-name the Gallente rifle the Plasma Rifle). Then, at the Advanced level, give each race its own special variant. I believe this is a much more balanced solution. I also think having four versions of each races' rifle would be not only excessive, but boring, in the end.
Just curious, did you read my first comment?
The assault type is just as valid a type as tactical, burst, or breach. Nothing makes those types any more "specialized", or the assault any less "specialized". It does not make sense why you want to exclude assault as a legitimate type.
The AR starts with assault type as its base - Every other rifle gets an assault variant to mimic the AR RR starts with breach type as its base - Every other rifle will get a breach variant to mimic the RR SCR starts with tactical type as its base - Every other rifle will get a tactical variant to mimic the SCR CR starts with burst type as its base - Every other rifle will get a burst variant to mimic the CR
Yes the assault variants of the CR, RR, and SCR are more expensive then the AR, but same is true for the burst variant of the AR (and future burst variants of the RR and SCR) when compared to the CR, or the tactical variant of the AR (and future tactical variants of the RR and CR) when compared to the price of a SCR. Extra variants that are not your rifle's base variant cost more and require higher skill to operate; the assault variants are not singled out in this regard.
Furthermore, your analysis of the assault variants are very one-dimensional. the assault SCR for example has higher magazine size (72), a reflex sight, much better range, so I'm willing to pay more for it than a GEK. Yes, I know you want to equalize the ranges, but that not only contradicts lore like I explained in my first post, but equalizing ranges also takes away the racial flavor of the variants; the solution to balancing the assault types should be to tweak DPS so high range ones sacrifice DPS, but low range ones gain high DPS.
Making the assault variant base, and the other base variants special variants does not solve any balance issues like I explained in my first post. Even if you did turn all the other base variants into special variants, the AR would be screwed with its variant. The breach AR is one of the worst guns in the game, the current base RR (which you incorrectly called a "tactical") would still be overpowered, etc. It doesn't fix the balance issues, it would just shift them to the variants.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Bojo The Mighty
L.O.T.I.S.
2907
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Posted - 2014.01.27 02:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cooper Eudaemon wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301
You should consider range. DPS is one thing, applying it is another. If all the assault variants outdps and outrange the AR the AR by relation is weakest. Even if the DPS gap is small they are applying that DPS where an AR can not. I did, and I think the ranges should be flattened. Currently, there's a difference of 27 meters between the shortest assault (Gallente) and the longest (Caldari), which is the only major difference between the four assault-type rifles. Among assault-type rifles I don't think we should see more than a 10 meter difference between the shortest and longest ranges. That would be no fun, everything operates the same with little differences amongst stats
Rifle Changes: DPS, range, and damage
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Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
2101
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Posted - 2014.01.27 02:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cooper Eudaemon wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301
You should consider range. DPS is one thing, applying it is another. If all the assault variants outdps and outrange the AR the AR by relation is weakest. Even if the DPS gap is small they are applying that DPS where an AR can not. I did, and I think the ranges should be flattened. Currently, there's a difference of 27 meters between the shortest assault (Gallente) and the longest (Caldari), which is the only major difference between the four assault-type rifles. Among assault-type rifles I don't think we should see more than a 10 meter difference between the shortest and longest ranges. meh 1/2 DPS = x2 range easy math... easy balancing
A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
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Cooper Eudaemon
DUST University Ivy League
163
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Posted - 2014.01.27 13:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Of course, but I don't agree with it. You're approaching this from a perspective that largely accepts the current paradigm, but there's no reason we have to keep that framework.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The assault type is just as valid a type as tactical, burst, or breach. Nothing makes those types any more "specialized", or the assault any less "specialized". It does not make sense why you want to exclude assault as a legitimate type.
The AR starts with assault type as its base - Every other rifle gets an assault variant to mimic the AR RR starts with breach type as its base - Every other rifle will get a breach variant to mimic the RR SCR starts with tactical type as its base - Every other rifle will get a tactical variant to mimic the SCR CR starts with burst type as its base - Every other rifle will get a burst variant to mimic the CR
Yes the assault variants of the CR, RR, and SCR are more expensive then the AR, but same is true for the burst variant of the AR (and future burst variants of the RR and SCR) when compared to the CR, or the tactical variant of the AR (and future tactical variants of the RR and CR) when compared to the price of a SCR. Extra variants that are not your rifle's base variant cost more and require higher skill to operate; the assault variants are not singled out in this regard.
If the assault rifle is just as valid, why do so many people assert that it's woefully underpowered? Well, the stats in my first post show exactly why. Its DPS is almost identical to the assault variants of the other rifles, and it has the shortest range. It has no value, except as the poor man's rifle. If the Assault Rifle is the Gallente base, it needs to be the best assault, just like the CR is the best burst. So, that's a legitimate option, but I don't think it's the simplest.
What I'm proposing instead is, make each race's base rifle "assault." That way a new player in any race can start with his or her own race's weapon, and be on a level playing field. Then at advanced level, give each race one unique variant. These would be better, they would be different from each other, and they would require more skill to use. It makes each race's weapon more meaningful. There's no need for every race to have every flavor rifle, it's too much, it's boring, and it makes the differences between races less special. And because each race does have a specialty, there will still be one race's version of each type that's better than the others, making the other races' pointless.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Furthermore, your analysis of the assault variants are very one-dimensional. the assault SCR for example has higher magazine size (72), a reflex sight, much better range, so I'm willing to pay more for it than a GEK. Yes, I know you want to equalize the ranges, but that not only contradicts lore like I explained in my first post, but equalizing ranges also takes away the racial flavor of the variants; the solution to balancing the assault types should be to tweak DPS so high range ones sacrifice DPS, but low range ones gain high DPS.
Making the assault variant base, and the other base variants special variants does not solve any balance issues like I explained in my first post. Even if you did turn all the other base variants into special variants, the AR would be screwed with its variant. The breach AR is one of the worst guns in the game, the current base RR (which you incorrectly called a "tactical") would still be overpowered, etc. It doesn't fix the balance issues, it would just shift them to the variants.
I didn't mean to suggest equalizing the ranges, merely lessening the differences between them, to achieve parity with the rest of each weapon's stats, as they are all otherwise very similar.
I deliberately kept my analysis narrow, to make as direct a comparison as possible. Features like different sights are a matter of personal preference, but we can compare some more statistics:
ADV AR magazine 60 rounds, fired in 4.8 s, reload 3 s ADV Assault RR 42 rounds, fired in 4.45 s (including 0.25 s spool time), reload 3.2 s ADV Assault CR 68 rounds, fired in 3.4 s, reload 2.6 s ADV Assault SR 72 rounds, fired in 6.12 s, reload 2.5 s - with a further delay for the cooldown
The differences here, like the differences in fire rate and alpha, are balanced. They suit different playstyles, but no rifle has an inherent advantage. Remember, each of these rifles does an almost identical amount of damage per second. The Scrambler and Assault rifles are suited for longer engagements, while the Combat Rifle is suited to guerilla tactics, and the Rail Rifle would do better at a distance. All of which is racially appropriate.
Just to nitpick, I'm not being incorrect with the terms, "Tactical, Breach, Burst, Charge." I'm suggesting that we redefine them. If the Gallente variant of the Assault Rifle was the Breach, it would have to be a much better and different version than what we have now. One that in its niche is as powerful as the Rail, Combat, and Scrambler Rifles are in theirs.
I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums...
I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
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Cooper Eudaemon
DUST University Ivy League
163
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Posted - 2014.01.27 13:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Cooper Eudaemon wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301
You should consider range. DPS is one thing, applying it is another. If all the assault variants outdps and outrange the AR the AR by relation is weakest. Even if the DPS gap is small they are applying that DPS where an AR can not. I did, and I think the ranges should be flattened. Currently, there's a difference of 27 meters between the shortest assault (Gallente) and the longest (Caldari), which is the only major difference between the four assault-type rifles. Among assault-type rifles I don't think we should see more than a 10 meter difference between the shortest and longest ranges. That would be no fun, everything operates the same with little differences amongst stats
The thing is, there's already little effective difference between each race's assault-type rifle.
To me, it makes sense to go all the way with that. Bring the range difference down to 10 meters between the worst and best, and make the assault type the default for each race's rifle.
Then, give each race one (and only one) variant--the current versions of the Rail, Combat, and Scrambler rifles, and an improved version of the Breach Assault rifle that deals high damage with a wide spread, sort of halfway between the AR and the shotgun.
This gives every race a starting rifle on a level playing field, and gives a compelling reason to skill up and use the variants. It also gives each race a distinct advantage in their particular areas of strength.
I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums...
I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
8625
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Posted - 2014.01.27 16:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Cooper Eudaemon wrote: Of course, but I don't agree with it. You're approaching this from a perspective that largely accepts the current paradigm, but there's no reason we have to keep that framework.
If the assault rifle is just as valid, why do so many people assert that it's woefully underpowered? Well, the stats in my first post show exactly why. Its DPS is almost identical to the assault variants of the other rifles, and it has the shortest range. It has no value, except as the poor man's rifle. If the Assault Rifle is the Gallente base, it needs to be the best assault, just like the CR is the best burst. So, that's a legitimate option, but I don't think it's the simplest.
What I'm proposing instead is, make each race's base rifle "assault." That way a new player in any race can start with his or her own race's weapon, and be on a level playing field. Then at advanced level, give each race one unique variant. These would be better, they would be different from each other, and they would require more skill to use. It makes each race's weapon more meaningful. There's no need for every race to have every flavor rifle, it's too much, it's boring, and it makes the differences between races less special. And because each race does have a specialty, there will still be one race's version of each type that's better than the others, making the other races' pointless.
I deliberately kept my analysis narrow, to make as direct a comparison as possible. Features like different sights are a matter of personal preference, but we can compare some more statistics:
ADV AR magazine 60 rounds, fired in 4.8 s, reload 3 s ADV Assault RR 42 rounds, fired in 4.45 s (including 0.25 s spool time), reload 3.2 s ADV Assault CR 68 rounds, fired in 3.4 s, reload 2.6 s ADV Assault SR 72 rounds, fired in 6.12 s, reload 2.5 s - with a further delay for the cooldown
The differences here, like the differences in fire rate and alpha, are balanced. They suit different playstyles, but no rifle has an inherent advantage. Remember, each of these rifles does an almost identical amount of damage per second. The Scrambler and Assault rifles are suited for longer engagements, while the Combat Rifle is suited to guerilla tactics, and the Rail Rifle would do better at a distance. All of which is racially appropriate.
Just to nitpick, I'm not being incorrect with the terms, "Tactical, Breach, Burst, Charge." I'm suggesting that we redefine them. If the Gallente variant of the Assault Rifle was the Breach, it would have to be a much better and different version than what we have now. One that in its niche is as powerful as the Rail, Combat, and Scrambler Rifles are in theirs.
Underpowered =/= invalid. Just balance it by making the range drawbacks worth it with comparatively high DPS. You don't need to declare a weapon invalid and fundamentally change everything every time there is a balance issue.
Each race having a variant allows you to try different item archetypes without spending SP in another rifle, it gives more options and value to the SP you put in operation skills. Furthermore, each race's take on a variant adds a unique damage profile and range (like a Caldari burst RR would have the best range out of the burst variants, and do -10% to shields, and +10% to armor). This also allows you to have a wider array of options to get what suits you.
I reject the premise that the base variants need to be the best versions of a type, they all need to be equally good, just different based on racial style.
I believe that the current assault types are wrong, there should be trade off between range and DPS.
You say each race getting a variant of each type (which would have the race's unique comparative range and shield/armor damage profiles) would make things less special, but I find turning each race's base variant into assault and getting rid of their unique ranges even more boring and make everything even less special.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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