DUST Search - The assault rifles are balanced. No, really.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

The assault type is just as valid a type as tactical, burst, or breach. Nothing makes those types any more "specialized", or the assault any less "specialized". It does not make sense why you want to exclude assault as a legitimate type.

The AR starts with assault type as its base - Every other rifle gets an assault variant to mimic the AR
RR starts with breach type as its base - Every other rifle will get a breach variant to mimic the RR
SCR starts with tactical type as its base - Every other rifle will get a tactical variant to mimic the SCR
CR starts with burst type as its base - Every other rifle will get a burst variant to mimic the CR

Yes the assault variants of the CR, RR, and SCR are more expensive then the AR, but same is true for the burst variant of the AR (and future burst variants of the RR and SCR) when compared to the CR, or the tactical variant of the AR (and future tactical variants of the RR and CR) when compared to the price of a SCR. Extra variants that are not your rifle's base variant cost more and require higher skill to operate; the assault variants are not singled out in this regard.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

Furthermore, your analysis of the assault variants are very one-dimensional. the assault SCR for example has higher magazine size (72), a reflex sight, much better range, so I'm willing to pay more for it than a GEK. Yes, I know you want to equalize the ranges, but that not only contradicts lore like I explained in my first post, but equalizing ranges also takes away the racial flavor of the variants; the solution to balancing the assault types should be to tweak DPS so high range ones sacrifice DPS, but low range ones gain high DPS.

Making the assault variant base, and the other base variants special variants does not solve any balance issues like I explained in my first post. Even if you did turn all the other base variants into special variants, the AR would be screwed with its variant. The breach AR is one of the worst guns in the game, the current base RR (which you incorrectly called a "tactical") would still be overpowered, etc. It doesn't fix the balance issues, it would just shift them to the variants.


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Cooper Eudaemon DUST University Ivy League 152	Posted - 2014.01.26 19:25:00 - [1] - Quote Like a lot of people, I believe the new weapons, the Rail Rifle and the Combat Rifle, were OP. That the Assault Rifle (Plasma Rifle!) and the Scrambler Rifle were UP. But I've noticed that I'm still dying as quickly and easily against the AR and SR as I do against the RR and CR. So, I decided to take a closer look, and do some light number crunching. The STD AR does 34 HP of damage at 750 RPM, for a DPS of 425 HP/S The STD RR does 55 HP of damage at 461.54 RPM, for a DPS of 422.95 HP/S, not counting the charge time The STD SR does 72 HP of damage at 705.88 RPM, for a DPS of 847.008 HP/S, not counting the semi-automatic fire mode The STD CR does 32 HP of damage at 1200 RPM, for a DPS of 640, not counting the burst fire mode Obviously, with different fire modes, it's difficult to compare these weapons. The only way to make a fair comparison of the Plasma, Rail, Scrambler, and Combat Rifles is to look at the Assault variants for each. The ADV AR does 35.7 HP of damage at 750 RPM, for a DPS of 445.25 HP/S The ADV Assault RR does 45.04 HP of damage at 600 RPM, for a DPS of 450.4 HP/S The ADV Assault SR does 37.8 HP of damage at 705.88 RPM, for a DPS of 445.78 HP/S The ADV Assault CR does 22 HP of damage at 1200 RPM, for a DPS of 440 HP/S That's right, just 10.4 HP/S difference between the highest and lowest DPS. Differences in damage types aside, if you shoot someone for the same length of time, you'll deal very, very close to the same amount of damage. Or will you? Accuracy is a squirrely stat. I assume the number indicates a percentage of rounds that will hit at a given (unknown) range. I have no idea if it applies to hip-fire, ADS (Aim Down Sights), or both. What the hell, let's look at it anyway. The ADV AR hits 56.14% of the time, for a DPS of 249.96 HP/S The ADV Assault RR hits 58.35% of the time, for a DPS of 262.81 HP/S The ADV Assault SR hits 57.73% of the time, for a DPS of 257.35 HP/S The ADV Assault CR hits 59.86% of the time, for a DPS of 263.38 HP/S The gap widens, to a 13.424 HP/S difference between the highest and lowest DPS. The difference in accuracy, btw, is 3.72% So, where are some differences? The prices. ADV AR 10,770 ISK ADV Assault RR 17,625 ISK ADV Assault SR 17,625 ISK ADV Assault CR 17,625 ISK Advantage, Assault (Plasma!) Rifle. The skills ADV AR requires Assault Rifle Operation III (15% reduction to kick) ADV Assault RR requires Rail Rifle Operation IV (20% reduction to kick) ADV Assault SR requires Scrambler Rifle Operation IV (no recoil, so 20% bonus to cooldown speed) ADV Assault CR requires Combat Rifle Operation IV (20% reduction to kick) Advantage, Assault (Plasma!) Rifle. The Assault Combat Rifle description quotes "increased kick," and the Assault Rail Rifle loses "range and stability," so the extra 5% reduction likely means equal recoil to the ADV AR--and at level V, the AR should in theory have less recoil than either the ARR or ACR. So why is everyone raging about the AR being so weak, and the CR or RR being so strong? It has to be the ranges. The ADV AR has an optimum range from 0 to 41 meters The ADV Assault RR has an optimum range from 0 to 68 meters* The ADV Assault SR has an optimum range from 0 to 52 meters The ADV Assault CR has an optimum range from 0 to 52 meters (stats from https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40886 ) That's a 27 meter difference between the highest and lowest ranges. *Despite the weapon description implying a shorter range, this is identical to the normal ADV RR. Or... Is it the other way around? Is everything else too similar, except for the range? It's been described best both here, and here. So, this is what I propose: Flatten the ranges, and make the "assault" variant the default for all races, priced the same, requiring the same skill level. Then, give each race a meaningful variant. Caldari - Tactical Rail Rifle (lower RPM, lower hip-fire accuracy, longer range, higher alpha [per shot damage]) Amarr - Charge Scrambler Rifle (either semi-auto and higher alpha, or auto and lower alpha, plus charged shot) Minmatar - Burst Combat Rifle (three or five-round bursts, higher alpha, higher accuracy) Gallente - Breach Assault Rifle (higher alpha, lower range, higher spread--to be more effective in short range) I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums... I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
Cooper Eudaemon DUST University Ivy League 158	Posted - 2014.01.27 00:51:00 - [2] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301 You should consider range. DPS is one thing, applying it is another. If all the assault variants outdps and outrange the AR the AR by relation is weakest. Even if the DPS gap is small they are applying that DPS where an AR can not. I did, and I think the ranges should be flattened. Currently, there's a difference of 27 meters between the shortest assault (Gallente) and the longest (Caldari), which is the only major difference between the four assault-type rifles. Among assault-type rifles I don't think we should see more than a 10 meter difference between the shortest and longest ranges. I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums... I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
Cooper Eudaemon DUST University Ivy League 158	Posted - 2014.01.27 01:06:00 - [3] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Tactical = semi-auto Breach = low ROF but automatic Burst = burst fire Assault = high ROF automatic Are you saying you want the RR to be semi-automatic (tap R1 for each shot)? The SCR is already semi-auto and tactical, what would you want to see happened to it if its no longer the tactical one? or do you want both to be tactical? I used the terms differently than how they're currently applied, in order to get four unique racial variants while excluding Assault as a racial type--and this is the crux of the matter. What I believe is, all of the current grief is because the rifles are backwards. The Caldari, Amarr, and Minmatar rifles all start with a specialised version of their rifles, while the Gallente start with the assault type. You have to skill higher, and pay more ISK, to use the assault versions of the Rail, Scrambler, or Combat Rifles, and as I've shown here, they perform almost identically to the normal Advanced Assault Rifle, which makes them a bad investment. At the same time, no current alternate version of the Gallente Assault Rifle is notably better than the assault, nor is there a version that is as unique or compelling as the normal versions of the Rail, Scrambler, and Combat Rifles. This leaves the Gallente Assault Rifle a poor cousin to the other races' rifles--so I think we should turn the whole thing around. Let the Assault version be the default type for all four races (and re-name the Gallente rifle the Plasma Rifle). Then, at the Advanced level, give each race its own special variant. I believe this is a much more balanced solution. I also think having four versions of each races' rifle would be not only excessive, but boring, in the end. I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums... I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
Cooper Eudaemon DUST University Ivy League 158	Posted - 2014.01.27 01:08:00 - [4] - Quote Waiyu Ren wrote: Another thing that bugs me, though it is purely superficial and has no impact on balance, is that weapons never deal their stated damage. Every weapon actually deals X +/- Y, depending on whether it is better at reducing shield or armour, and what each round is hitting at the time... But Y is an invisible stat. Just a small tweak, but could i see the damage vs each listed on the weapon itself, rather than have to look it up on the forums? Pretty please? :) Done and done. ^o^ You can also go here: http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Weapons_Overview I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums... I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
Cooper Eudaemon DUST University Ivy League 163	Posted - 2014.01.27 13:15:00 - [5] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Just curious, did you read my first comment? Of course, but I don't agree with it. You're approaching this from a perspective that largely accepts the current paradigm, but there's no reason we have to keep that framework. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The assault type is just as valid a type as tactical, burst, or breach. Nothing makes those types any more "specialized", or the assault any less "specialized". It does not make sense why you want to exclude assault as a legitimate type. The AR starts with assault type as its base - Every other rifle gets an assault variant to mimic the AR RR starts with breach type as its base - Every other rifle will get a breach variant to mimic the RR SCR starts with tactical type as its base - Every other rifle will get a tactical variant to mimic the SCR CR starts with burst type as its base - Every other rifle will get a burst variant to mimic the CR Yes the assault variants of the CR, RR, and SCR are more expensive then the AR, but same is true for the burst variant of the AR (and future burst variants of the RR and SCR) when compared to the CR, or the tactical variant of the AR (and future tactical variants of the RR and CR) when compared to the price of a SCR. Extra variants that are not your rifle's base variant cost more and require higher skill to operate; the assault variants are not singled out in this regard. If the assault rifle is just as valid, why do so many people assert that it's woefully underpowered? Well, the stats in my first post show exactly why. Its DPS is almost identical to the assault variants of the other rifles, and it has the shortest range. It has no value, except as the poor man's rifle. If the Assault Rifle is the Gallente base, it needs to be the best assault, just like the CR is the best burst. So, that's a legitimate option, but I don't think it's the simplest. What I'm proposing instead is, make each race's base rifle "assault." That way a new player in any race can start with his or her own race's weapon, and be on a level playing field. Then at advanced level, give each race one unique variant. These would be better, they would be different from each other, and they would require more skill to use. It makes each race's weapon more meaningful. There's no need for every race to have every flavor rifle, it's too much, it's boring, and it makes the differences between races less special. And because each race does have a specialty, there will still be one race's version of each type that's better than the others, making the other races' pointless. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Furthermore, your analysis of the assault variants are very one-dimensional. the assault SCR for example has higher magazine size (72), a reflex sight, much better range, so I'm willing to pay more for it than a GEK. Yes, I know you want to equalize the ranges, but that not only contradicts lore like I explained in my first post, but equalizing ranges also takes away the racial flavor of the variants; the solution to balancing the assault types should be to tweak DPS so high range ones sacrifice DPS, but low range ones gain high DPS. Making the assault variant base, and the other base variants special variants does not solve any balance issues like I explained in my first post. Even if you did turn all the other base variants into special variants, the AR would be screwed with its variant. The breach AR is one of the worst guns in the game, the current base RR (which you incorrectly called a "tactical") would still be overpowered, etc. It doesn't fix the balance issues, it would just shift them to the variants. I didn't mean to suggest equalizing the ranges, merely lessening the differences between them, to achieve parity with the rest of each weapon's stats, as they are all otherwise very similar. I deliberately kept my analysis narrow, to make as direct a comparison as possible. Features like different sights are a matter of personal preference, but we can compare some more statistics: ADV AR magazine 60 rounds, fired in 4.8 s, reload 3 s ADV Assault RR 42 rounds, fired in 4.45 s (including 0.25 s spool time), reload 3.2 s ADV Assault CR 68 rounds, fired in 3.4 s, reload 2.6 s ADV Assault SR 72 rounds, fired in 6.12 s, reload 2.5 s - with a further delay for the cooldown The differences here, like the differences in fire rate and alpha, are balanced. They suit different playstyles, but no rifle has an inherent advantage. Remember, each of these rifles does an almost identical amount of damage per second. The Scrambler and Assault rifles are suited for longer engagements, while the Combat Rifle is suited to guerilla tactics, and the Rail Rifle would do better at a distance. All of which is racially appropriate. Just to nitpick, I'm not being incorrect with the terms, "Tactical, Breach, Burst, Charge." I'm suggesting that we redefine them. If the Gallente variant of the Assault Rifle was the Breach, it would have to be a much better and different version than what we have now. One that in its niche is as powerful as the Rail, Combat, and Scrambler Rifles are in theirs. I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums... I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
Cooper Eudaemon DUST University Ivy League 163	Posted - 2014.01.27 13:20:00 - [6] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Cooper Eudaemon wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301 You should consider range. DPS is one thing, applying it is another. If all the assault variants outdps and outrange the AR the AR by relation is weakest. Even if the DPS gap is small they are applying that DPS where an AR can not. I did, and I think the ranges should be flattened. Currently, there's a difference of 27 meters between the shortest assault (Gallente) and the longest (Caldari), which is the only major difference between the four assault-type rifles. Among assault-type rifles I don't think we should see more than a 10 meter difference between the shortest and longest ranges. That would be no fun, everything operates the same with little differences amongst stats The thing is, there's already little effective difference between each race's assault-type rifle. To me, it makes sense to go all the way with that. Bring the range difference down to 10 meters between the worst and best, and make the assault type the default for each race's rifle. Then, give each race one (and only one) variant--the current versions of the Rail, Combat, and Scrambler rifles, and an improved version of the Breach Assault rifle that deals high damage with a wide spread, sort of halfway between the AR and the shotgun. This gives every race a starting rifle on a level playing field, and gives a compelling reason to skill up and use the variants. It also gives each race a distinct advantage in their particular areas of strength. I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums... I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...