Player A chooses gimped weapon
Player B chooses FOTM

A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or GÇ£learnGÇ¥ the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the GÇ£scrubGÇ¥ has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. HeGÇÖs lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant.

That is the POINT of the game![/b]

The fault lies fully with CCP, and no one else. People get so happy when something gets nerfed, and they make sure to let FOTM chasers know. Oh sorry, your suit sucks now, how does it feel? Oh, so what, you were jealous, and now you have to rub it in a players face, when it was CCP who allowed these imbalances!

And people LOVE to bring this up in Respec discussions. Here is what is happening though.

Player A chooses gimped weapon
Player B chooses FOTM

Player B murders Player A for several months, until CCP makes another crack at balancing.
Player B gets nerfed Player A and B on more equal footing.

So, you wouldn't want an FOTM chaser to get a respec, because they made you suffer for 3 months. So they should suffer too. Does anyone else see how childish this all is. THE PLAYERS HAVE NEVER BEEN AT FAULT FOR DOING ANY WRONG. They just play to win, which is how you SHOULD play. So people did their homework, and choose the most powerful suit. Sorry you didn't do the same?

FOTM has no place in a respec discussion, I mean jesus how often can a FOTM player be an FOTM player. After they nerf them, they cease to be FOTM, and now must grind out new suits. WHICH AT THIS POINT THEY NO DOUBT HAVE DONE. Is everyone that went into the new rail rifle and combat rifle FOTM chasers! Should they be fair and just put down their shiny toys in place of something on your level!

People seem to think dust is real life, and not a video game

But EvE has many non competitive aspects as well

If you are not playing to win, you are not playing the game!

Whilst I agree that FOTM should be kept out of respec discussions, there are a lot of things you are wrong about.

Video games are all about enjoyment. Some people prefer a more casual non-competitive environment where winning isn't everything. Others prefer a very competitive and hostile environment where everyone will abuse anything within their power to win. Both groups of players should be respected as 2 important demographics and should be catered for. Even EVE, considered one of the most hostile games around, has lots of non-competitive elements and caters quite nicely for casuals. As you've said so yourself:



However, Dust currently fails to cater to casuals. The casuals are forced to play against tryhards who ruin their experience as they can't play in an environment they feel comfortable in. However, they tryhards never consider the fact that different people get enjoyment from different things. They only see it like this:



And as the people they're fighting aren't challenging this, they're relatively comfortable. They don't see what they're doing wrong and expect the casuals to change their play style to conform to their hyper-competitive, testosterone fueled opinion on how it 'should' be.


The two groups should have environments (hi sec, low sec and null sec) that suit the level of competition and 'asshattery'.

Yes, its called ethics. By that notion, the us is scrubs, for not nuking everyone. Definition noted, lulled at, and discarded.

Let's stop and take a step back here.

Dust 514 is a competitive game. But what does that? Let's take it's counterpart, EVE, for comparison.

I can safely say EVE is a competitive game. In both PVP and PVE. But EvE has many non competitive aspects as well, like mining and producing. The main source of competition though comes from PVP, Ship vs Ship battles. Like Dust, there are strength in numbers, so it's not all about having the best gear, but it still plays a huge part.

In EVE, having a better ship, and in some cases bigger ship, than the one you are going up against will win you the encounter. In equal matchups between ships, it comes down to the persons skills. And then you have your Fleets (squads) coordinating together to take down enemies. The biggest thing though for both EVE and Dust, is the competition, you play to win.

When it comes to competing against another person, you look for every way possible to win. I don't think there is any such thing as a cheap tactics or FOTM. We are here to compete, we are here to win. In Dust how is it that you interact with other players? There are Red dots and Blue dots! Dust has a hint of RPG elements to it, but it IS a competitive team based shooter.

People go into the FOTM, not because they are scrubs! Because they, like anyone else, WANT TO WIN. Like back when everyone was running around in a Cal Logi, that suit was the ****. Even then people were crying FOTM and hating them for it. You know why you feel that hate, because there is an imbalance between your choices, and their choices. It has nothing to do with the person that chooses the FOTM, no doubt you would feel differently if that had been your first choice. People don't choose the FOTM to be ******* dicks, they choose it because they want to win. That is the POINT of the game!

The fault lies fully with CCP, and no one else. People get so happy when something gets nerfed, and they make sure to let FOTM chasers know. Oh sorry, your suit sucks now, how does it feel? Oh, so what, you were jealous, and now you have to rub it in a players face, when it was CCP who allowed these imbalances!

And people LOVE to bring this up in Respec discussions. Here is what is happening though.

Player A chooses gimped weapon
Player B chooses FOTM

Player B murders Player A for several months, until CCP makes another crack at balancing.
Player B gets nerfed Player A and B on more equal footing.

So, you wouldn't want an FOTM chaser to get a respec, because they made you suffer for 3 months. So they should suffer too. Does anyone else see how childish this all is. THE PLAYERS HAVE NEVER BEEN AT FAULT FOR DOING ANY WRONG. They just play to win, which is how you SHOULD play. So people did their homework, and choose the most powerful suit. Sorry you didn't do the same?

FOTM has no place in a respec discussion, I mean jesus how often can a FOTM player be an FOTM player. After they nerf them, they cease to be FOTM, and now must grind out new suits. WHICH AT THIS POINT THEY NO DOUBT HAVE DONE. Is everyone that went into the new rail rifle and combat rifle FOTM chasers! Should they be fair and just put down their shiny toys in place of something on your level!

NO, adapt or die. Oh they have rail rifles, well guess I'll pull mine to counter. Tactics 101.

If you are not playing to win, you are not playing the game!

So in essence, if this "competitive player" found a way to constantly call in an orbital strike for the entire match, this would be ok with you? Because it's the same thing. And if you say no, then you've just proved yourself wrong.

Racing is a competitive game too. Do think it's ok for an F1 car to go up against a NASCAR car in the same race? There's a reason why people complain about these things and that's all thanks to these KDR whores whole have gotten every weapon, build, vehicle that has ever dominated the game at any point in the history if Dust to have that high KDR. And no. Constant orbital strikes are not ok.

Let's stop and take a step back here.

Dust 514 is a competitive game. But what does that mean? Let's take it's counterpart, EVE, for comparison.

I can safely say EVE is a competitive game. In both PVP and PVE. But EvE has many non competitive aspects as well, like mining and producing. The main source of competition though comes from PVP, Ship vs Ship battles. Like Dust, there are strength in numbers, so it's not all about having the best gear, but it still plays a huge part.

In EVE, having a better ship, and in some cases bigger ship, than the one you are going up against will win you the encounter. In equal matchups between ships, it comes down to the persons skills. And then you have your Fleets (squads) coordinating together to take down enemies. The biggest thing though for both EVE and Dust, is the competition, you play to win.

When it comes to competing against another person, you look for every way possible to win. I don't think there is any such thing as a cheap tactics or FOTM. We are here to compete, we are here to win. In Dust how is it that you interact with other players? There are Red dots and Blue dots! Dust has a hint of RPG elements to it, but it IS a competitive team based shooter.

People go into the FOTM, not because they are scrubs! Because they, like anyone else, WANT TO WIN. Like back when everyone was running around in a Cal Logi, that suit was the ****. Even then people were crying FOTM and hating them for it. You know why you feel that hate, because there is an imbalance between your choices, and their choices. It has nothing to do with the person that chooses the FOTM, no doubt you would feel differently if that had been your first choice. People don't choose the FOTM to be ******* dicks, they choose it because they want to win. That is the POINT of the game!

The fault lies fully with CCP, and no one else. People get so happy when something gets nerfed, and they make sure to let FOTM chasers know. Oh sorry, your suit sucks now, how does it feel? Oh, so what, you were jealous, and now you have to rub it in a players face, when it was CCP who allowed these imbalances!

And people LOVE to bring this up in Respec discussions. Here is what is happening though.

Player A chooses gimped weapon
Player B chooses FOTM

Player B murders Player A for several months, until CCP makes another crack at balancing.
Player B gets nerfed Player A and B on more equal footing.

So, you wouldn't want an FOTM chaser to get a respec, because they made you suffer for 3 months. So they should suffer too. Does anyone else see how childish this all is. THE PLAYERS HAVE NEVER BEEN AT FAULT FOR DOING ANY WRONG. They just play to win, which is how you SHOULD play. So people did their homework, and choose the most powerful suit. Sorry you didn't do the same?

FOTM has no place in a respec discussion, I mean jesus how often can a FOTM player be an FOTM player. After they nerf them, they cease to be FOTM, and now must grind out new suits. WHICH AT THIS POINT THEY NO DOUBT HAVE DONE. Is everyone that went into the new rail rifle and combat rifle FOTM chasers! Should they be fair and just put down their shiny toys in place of something on your level!

NO, adapt or die. Oh they have rail rifles, well guess I'll pull mine to counter. Tactics 101.

If you are not playing to win, you are not playing the game!

But the reality of it all, there's no such thing as a perfect balance in fps games. There's just way too many variables that would allow it. But we can at least come close. In my opinion, CCP is waaay off course.

Tanks should be relying on infantry for support when attacking a well defended set of redberry infantry. This promotes team play. But now every Sica tank goes out and solos an all infantry enemy stronghold. This is the direction CCP took the 1.7 update to. And it's not good.

Saying DUST is competitive in this way is like saying war is competitive. I think most equate competitive with level stats and equipment and using player skill as the difference. DUST is about brutal combat and intentionally stacking the odds in your favor.

What DUST does need is a means of letting the rookies have more time to mature before they have to face the hardened veterans running their best gear.

Let's stop and take a step back here.

Dust 514 is a competitive game. But what does that mean? Let's take it's counterpart, EVE, for comparison.

I can safely say EVE is a competitive game. In both PVP and PVE. But EvE has many non competitive aspects as well, like mining and producing. The main source of competition though comes from PVP, Ship vs Ship battles. Like Dust, there are strength in numbers, so it's not all about having the best gear, but it still plays a huge part.

In EVE, having a better ship, and in some cases bigger ship, than the one you are going up against will win you the encounter. In equal matchups between ships, it comes down to the persons skills. And then you have your Fleets (squads) coordinating together to take down enemies. The biggest thing though for both EVE and Dust, is the competition, you play to win.

When it comes to competing against another person, you look for every way possible to win. I don't think there is any such thing as a cheap tactics or FOTM. We are here to compete, we are here to win. In Dust how is it that you interact with other players? There are Red dots and Blue dots! Dust has a hint of RPG elements to it, but it IS a competitive team based shooter.

People go into the FOTM, not because they are scrubs! Because they, like anyone else, WANT TO WIN. Like back when everyone was running around in a Cal Logi, that suit was the ****. Even then people were crying FOTM and hating them for it. You know why you feel that hate, because there is an imbalance between your choices, and their choices. It has nothing to do with the person that chooses the FOTM, no doubt you would feel differently if that had been your first choice. People don't choose the FOTM to be ******* dicks, they choose it because they want to win. That is the POINT of the game!

The fault lies fully with CCP, and no one else. People get so happy when something gets nerfed, and they make sure to let FOTM chasers know. Oh sorry, your suit sucks now, how does it feel? Oh, so what, you were jealous, and now you have to rub it in a players face, when it was CCP who allowed these imbalances!

And people LOVE to bring this up in Respec discussions. Here is what is happening though.

Player A chooses gimped weapon
Player B chooses FOTM

Player B murders Player A for several months, until CCP makes another crack at balancing.
Player B gets nerfed Player A and B on more equal footing.

So, you wouldn't want an FOTM chaser to get a respec, because they made you suffer for 3 months. So they should suffer too. Does anyone else see how childish this all is. THE PLAYERS HAVE NEVER BEEN AT FAULT FOR DOING ANY WRONG. They just play to win, which is how you SHOULD play. So people did their homework, and choose the most powerful suit. Sorry you didn't do the same?

FOTM has no place in a respec discussion, I mean jesus how often can a FOTM player be an FOTM player. After they nerf them, they cease to be FOTM, and now must grind out new suits. WHICH AT THIS POINT THEY NO DOUBT HAVE DONE. Is everyone that went into the new rail rifle and combat rifle FOTM chasers! Should they be fair and just put down their shiny toys in place of something on your level!

NO, adapt or die. Oh they have rail rifles, well guess I'll pull mine to counter. Tactics 101.

If you are not playing to win, you are not playing the game!

Let's stop and take a step back here.

Dust 514 is a competitive game. But what does that mean? Let's take it's counterpart, EVE, for comparison.

I can safely say EVE is a competitive game. In both PVP and PVE. But EvE has many non competitive aspects as well, like mining and producing. The main source of competition though comes from PVP, Ship vs Ship battles. Like Dust, there are strength in numbers, so it's not all about having the best gear, but it still plays a huge part.

In EVE, having a better ship, and in some cases bigger ship, than the one you are going up against will win you the encounter. In equal matchups between ships, it comes down to the persons skills. And then you have your Fleets (squads) coordinating together to take down enemies. The biggest thing though for both EVE and Dust, is the competition, you play to win.

When it comes to competing against another person, you look for every way possible to win. I don't think there is any such thing as a cheap tactics or FOTM. We are here to compete, we are here to win. In Dust how is it that you interact with other players? There are Red dots and Blue dots! Dust has a hint of RPG elements to it, but it IS a competitive team based shooter.

People go into the FOTM, not because they are scrubs! Because they, like anyone else, WANT TO WIN. Like back when everyone was running around in a Cal Logi, that suit was the ****. Even then people were crying FOTM and hating them for it. You know why you feel that hate, because there is an imbalance between your choices, and their choices. It has nothing to do with the person that chooses the FOTM, no doubt you would feel differently if that had been your first choice. People don't choose the FOTM to be ******* dicks, they choose it because they want to win. That is the POINT of the game!

The fault lies fully with CCP, and no one else. People get so happy when something gets nerfed, and they make sure to let FOTM chasers know. Oh sorry, your suit sucks now, how does it feel? Oh, so what, you were jealous, and now you have to rub it in a players face, when it was CCP who allowed these imbalances!

And people LOVE to bring this up in Respec discussions. Here is what is happening though.

Player A chooses gimped weapon
Player B chooses FOTM

Player B murders Player A for several months, until CCP makes another crack at balancing.
Player B gets nerfed Player A and B on more equal footing.

So, you wouldn't want an FOTM chaser to get a respec, because they made you suffer for 3 months. So they should suffer too. Does anyone else see how childish this all is. THE PLAYERS HAVE NEVER BEEN AT FAULT FOR DOING ANY WRONG. They just play to win, which is how you SHOULD play. So people did their homework, and choose the most powerful suit. Sorry you didn't do the same?

FOTM has no place in a respec discussion, I mean jesus how often can a FOTM player be an FOTM player. After they nerf them, they cease to be FOTM, and now must grind out new suits. WHICH AT THIS POINT THEY NO DOUBT HAVE DONE. Is everyone that went into the new rail rifle and combat rifle FOTM chasers! Should they be fair and just put down their shiny toys in place of something on your level!

NO, adapt or die. Oh they have rail rifles, well guess I'll pull mine to counter. Tactics 101.

If you are not playing to win, you are not playing the game!

We also need to remember that there are 2 types of balance: stat balance and community balance.

It doesn't matter if armor vs shield is balanced if everyone is using anti-shield weapons, for example.

stuff

The message I was trying to convey with that orbital strike example is not about glitches. What I am saying is this - if you give the weapons that could decimate the enemy with ease, players WILL flock to it. And the players I refer to are the KDR whores who care nothing for tanks, weapons, LAV's, RE's, or dropsuits. The only thing they care about is their KDR. And what combination of anything that would get them the most kills quickly with the least amount of deaths.

These are the players who would've gotten everything from murder taxis, flaylocks, redline sniping, tower forging, and now militia tanks. Whatever the FOTM is/was. They've been there and done that.

See this is the problem, always you go to name calling. This guys murders so he must be a KDR *****. This guy is using an OP weapon, he must be an FOTM user. Why is it that you ASSUME these guys must me something I doubt they really are?

You know who I am, I'm ******* Tebu Gan. I don't care about KDR, as sometimes winning means SACRIFICING KDR. I don't care about FOTM, as it would take far TOO MUCH SP to go FOTM every single update. I play to win, and if the other team wants to fight dirty, you fight dirty back.

Yes I get it, Dust 514 had a lot of hype behind it, PVE, market, engaging game play, ect ect ect. I like many others, was looking forward to some team PVE play. I was expecting more, but this is what we have.

A straight up FPS shooter. Nothing else. I know we all want more and more, but you really need to step back and look at the reality of the situation.

What is the goal of the game, the actual game play. How can you call that anything but a competition? You may have other ideas in mind in a match, but the goal is the WIN.

The best fit wins, nuff said.

The overall goal of the post though, was to point out the fact that there is no such thing as an FOTM player or KDR *****. These are titles you place upon players without actually knowing any reasoning behind them. I mean, how can you assume that the same players are constantly dropping 5 to 6 mil and update to get the next FOTM.

Or that the guy at the top of the leaderboard is simply some "tryhard" (another stupid "title") that should tone it down so everyone else can enjoy themselves. Are you really that selfish, to think that since you either can't run the gear you want, or you simply won't, that everyone else should stoop to your level???

You can disagree with me all you want, and a surprisingly large number of people seem too, but at the end of the day, this game revolves and thrives off of competition. When the goal of each match is to WIN, how can you honestly say otherwise?

your theory is nice and all but his maybe applies to some diehard mouthbreathing scrubs that no one cares about. we want a respec because it is time that CCP takes responsibility for their flawed design decision at the beginning and slow development cycles. 1.8 will screw alot of players, players that grinded SP to get into a specific kind of playstyle and fits just to see it changed. your decisions where you spend SP into have zero weight in dust, your decisions are thrown into a lottery pool and if you are lucky then you get what you wanted in the long run or you get to use it for a month and it gets changed next patch.

e.g. I invested alot of SP into minmatar logi, to have a speed hacker with the ability to support my squad. when 1.8 goes live all of it will be gone. no speed hacking any more and all equipment gets nerfed thus I will not be able to do the same without a racial bonus. playstyle is completely changed and forced upon me by again bad dev decisions. basically all support logis get a nerf, slayer logis remain almost unchanged?! the playstyle I decided for will no longer exist in 1.8. it does not only affect my dropsuit skills, every other decision I made regarding my SP was based on the fact that I wanted to play a speed hacking full time support. my initial decision to play this suit will be null and void in 1.8.

my minmatar sidearm specialist will also be gone. again, alot of SP that I cannot utilize.

this does not happen the first time, my scout suit was destroyed by CCP devs already. long time ago scouts were actually not that bad. they were actually able to evade damage with speed. I wanted such a suit that can evade damage with speed at the beginning. I invested in scouts and what happened? CCP decided to "normalize speeds" (atleast how they called it) because they could not fix hit detection in a reasonable timeframe. what they have done is decrease the speed across the board and it hit scouts the hardest. several months later, to add more insult, then they added aim assist. my initial decision, why I invested my SP into a scout is again made null and void cause I can no longer evade damage with speed, I get hit anyway and with the introduction of scanners I am perma scanned unless I invest my slots into dampening which results getting me killed in 0.5s by all those 500 and more dps weapons on the field.

and I am not alone in this boat, many others suffer from this too and a respec is the least that CCP can do. if they do not refund them, sane players will leave not bothering to grind nonstop because of ever changing core mechanics.

FotM Chasers

Pros
get to perform exponentially better within the given time for correctly spotting the imbalance

Cons
benefits are short term (months)


Spending Sp as fast as you get it (vs Saving it)

Pro
You get receive your benefits faster to take an immediate advantage

Con
No long term thinking to account for changes


I don't see anything wrong with this set up, the argument you are pushing is that there should be no negatives to FotM chasing or long term planning, which I disagree.

Burning sp to boost performance/kdr is a legitimate trade off vs the player who stuck with relatively balanced mechanics or who saved their sp.

In fact I consider this one of the meta gaming aspects of dust where our personalities effect the game.

If your not playing to win your not playing the game? who the hell do you think you are? This worthless trash isnt real i feel sorry for all of you fools who spew trash like this. we can play this game however we want. you have no power or say on who is and is not a gamer. a gamer can be whatever the hell we want it to be. until the creator of games says what a gamer is you and everyone else like you can stuff a sock in it.

Naw, not pushing that FotM has no negatives, it's that the fault does not lay in FotM users. There are legitimate issues, that FotM users bring to light, yes. Is it maybe a little cheap and unfair to other players, totally.

But they ruin the game? No, they don't, they play to win, so they want the best tool for the job. What I was saying with my post is that CCP is responsible for the changes that take place. Any time I see a posts that mentions FotM, try hards, die hards, ect, I ignore it. Because I know that more than anything, people are using emotions over logic.

When the goal is to win, don't you want to win?

Yes, its called ethics. By that notion, the us is scrubs, for not nuking everyone. Definition noted, lulled at, and discarded.

Yeah, they are playing with the given mechanics, I have no issues with FotM chasers, with proto stompers, ect, no issues there, but the reason why FotM chasers get brought up in respecs is because of the suppose negative is the sp burn for a performance boost, which the negatives would be negated with sp resets, that is why it is brought up in there at any rate.

FoTM? You're not wrong, you're just an as*hole. And Dust, competitive!? If it were competitive there wouldn't be so many players running 6 man logi squads.

With all the new suits coming, we should get one. What if heavies didn't want to play Amarr? Are you going to say that they should've waited for the other racial heavies to be released to spend their SP? No.

Fella, I think you missed a lot of the points I was trying to make. Something you need to understand, there will always be FOTM chasers. As long as this is a competitive game, people will always be looking for the next best thing. A single respec isn't going to flip the whole world upside down. Some will go into the FOTM, yeah. A lot will go right back into what they had. Some will go for something totally new.

I find it foolish to assume that every single person will go into the FOTM to be competitive. It takes all kinds of suits to make a PC match result in a win! We will still need heavies, tanks, logis, slayers, scouts, ect ect ect.

Something else, I really don't think CCP listens as heavily as you think to feedback. Yes they will take in issues player bring up, and then look to find why there might or might not be an issue there. I don't think it has anything to do with player feedback, if anything players are warning of the next FOTM, yet CCP does nothing to change it.

As for respecs, they are needed. This game is becoming stagnant, and needs a little bump.

The EVE comparison, was meant to only compare what it means to PVP combat. Yeah I know you can take a miner out and PVE, but hey, YOU CAN'T DO THAT ON DUST. What you can do is PVP.

And Ethics. You call it Ethics.

You know, the early colonist and soldiers feared the Native Americans (my people). They were big on honor in combat, so standing in clear view of one another was the way to go. No sneaky bullshit, all ethical.

The natives, they used camo, surprise, deceit. They would slit your throat while you slept, never giving you the chance to fight back. The warriors, they fought with honor too. They understood well, that a superior force was only as superior as their tactics.

That is what dust currently is. Play to win.

So by your reasoning, we should identify what is OP, and all together, not spec into it? Are you that DAFT! Ethics has no place in new eden!

Yeah yea, you want pve blah blah blah. Guess what, THIS is what you have. It's not changing anytime soon.

People seem to think dust is real life, and not a video game

Life is a game if you really think about it., we make made up goals and rules to live/play by. Ethics and Morality are completely made up ideas that humanity evolved to increase it's chances of survival. The only rules are the ones we enforce upon ourselves, and there is no cosmic law, other than the laws of physics. The ideas of Good and Evil are false ideologies. Whatever you can do, you can do.

Are you playing to win? I didn't think so... Because there is no win condition.

Edit: give us a skill refund!

Yeah, wish PC was a bit more open. Everyone could understand a bit better if they were involved in something that mattered (controlling planets) as opposed to running pubs against people in various character stages.

In PC, all you have is PROTO on PROTO. Yes, it is very competitive. Lots of testosterone to go around!

Yes, its called ethics. By that notion, the us is scrubs, for not nuking everyone. Definition noted, lulled at, and discarded.

Let's stop and take a step back here.

Dust 514 is a competitive game. But what does that mean? Let's take it's counterpart, EVE, for comparison.

I can safely say EVE is a competitive game. In both PVP and PVE. But EvE has many non competitive aspects as well, like mining and producing. The main source of competition though comes from PVP, Ship vs Ship battles. Like Dust, there are strength in numbers, so it's not all about having the best gear, but it still plays a huge part.

In EVE, having a better ship, and in some cases bigger ship, than the one you are going up against will win you the encounter. In equal matchups between ships, it comes down to the persons skills. And then you have your Fleets (squads) coordinating together to take down enemies. The biggest thing though for both EVE and Dust, is the competition, you play to win.

When it comes to competing against another person, you look for every way possible to win. I don't think there is any such thing as a cheap tactics or FOTM. We are here to compete, we are here to win. In Dust how is it that you interact with other players? There are Red dots and Blue dots! Dust has a hint of RPG elements to it, but it IS a competitive team based shooter.

People go into the FOTM, not because they are scrubs! Because they, like anyone else, WANT TO WIN. Like back when everyone was running around in a Cal Logi, that suit was the ****. Even then people were crying FOTM and hating them for it. You know why you feel that hate, because there is an imbalance between your choices, and their choices. It has nothing to do with the person that chooses the FOTM, no doubt you would feel differently if that had been your first choice. People don't choose the FOTM to be ******* dicks, they choose it because they want to win. That is the POINT of the game!

The fault lies fully with CCP, and no one else. People get so happy when something gets nerfed, and they make sure to let FOTM chasers know. Oh sorry, your suit sucks now, how does it feel? Oh, so what, you were jealous, and now you have to rub it in a players face, when it was CCP who allowed these imbalances!

And people LOVE to bring this up in Respec discussions. Here is what is happening though.

Player A chooses gimped weapon
Player B chooses FOTM

Player B murders Player A for several months, until CCP makes another crack at balancing.
Player B gets nerfed Player A and B on more equal footing.

So, you wouldn't want an FOTM chaser to get a respec, because they made you suffer for 3 months. So they should suffer too. Does anyone else see how childish this all is. THE PLAYERS HAVE NEVER BEEN AT FAULT FOR DOING ANY WRONG. They just play to win, which is how you SHOULD play. So people did their homework, and choose the most powerful suit. Sorry you didn't do the same?

FOTM has no place in a respec discussion, I mean jesus how often can a FOTM player be an FOTM player. After they nerf them, they cease to be FOTM, and now must grind out new suits. WHICH AT THIS POINT THEY NO DOUBT HAVE DONE. Is everyone that went into the new rail rifle and combat rifle FOTM chasers! Should they be fair and just put down their shiny toys in place of something on your level!

NO, adapt or die. Oh they have rail rifles, well guess I'll pull mine to counter. Tactics 101.

If you are not playing to win, you are not playing the game!

Life is a game if you really think about it., we make made up goals and rules to live/play by. Ethics and Morality are completely made up ideas that humanity evolved to increase it's chances of survival. The only rules are the ones we enforce upon ourselves, and there is no cosmic law, other than the laws of physics. The ideas of Good and Evil are false ideologies. Whatever you can do, you can do.

Are you playing to win? I didn't think so... Because there is no win condition.

Edit: give us a skill refund!

Do I have to spec into the fotm to keep up?

It seems like it why do I have to waste my sp for it?

You say to adapt or die what if I can't quit playing because these people have a high advantage over me?

Find their weakness those decent/top players that know their weakness and will try and cover that up now what?

I don't have isk to waste to try and see what can kill these things and I hate dying to these fotm ***** why do I keep playing?

These are the questions I keep asking myself and my solution is to snipe or quit the game for the day.. Why does it have to result that we have to change our styles because someone abuses the best suits at the time?

They went overboard with the cal logi CPU nerf, the buff to armor and cal logi shield bonus change was enough, its now gimped as far true logi work goes. Still a decent suit but pales in comparison to gallente logi, but luckily my combat rifle puts gallente logis in their place.

I feel the same way, I can't use the gear I want, I can't play the game with my own unique playstyle which I find fun, Instead I have to use the FOTM stuff just to compete with everyone else who is using it

I was going to comment, then realized I was stooping to your level.

And we are not discussing what is needed for PC, only 20GǦ of the player base does PC. You go to a pub, and its all fotm. Ar have you had your head buried in the sand since the 5x sp event started? 50% of the player vase is using fotm. I'll start counting rail kills vs everything else if you want me to back it up with numbers. That is with no respec, respec will just make all the try hards worse.

I can't tell if this thread is ************ or blowhard?

So if i walk up to you and stab you to death just to steal your wallet that is not morally wrong?

If i kidnap and rrape girls just because I can, is that okay too?

Whatever I can do I can do, according to you

Fella, I think you missed a lot of the points I was trying to make. Something you need to understand, there will always be FOTM chasers. As long as this is a competitive game, people will always be looking for the next best thing. A single respec isn't going to flip the whole world upside down. Some will go into the FOTM, yeah. A lot will go right back into what they had. Some will go for something totally new.

I find it foolish to assume that every single person will go into the FOTM to be competitive. It takes all kinds of suits to make a PC match result in a win! We will still need heavies, tanks, logis, slayers, scouts, ect ect ect.

Something else, I really don't think CCP listens as heavily as you think to feedback. Yes they will take in issues player bring up, and then look to find why there might or might not be an issue there. I don't think it has anything to do with player feedback, if anything players are warning of the next FOTM, yet CCP does nothing to change it.

As for respecs, they are needed. This game is becoming stagnant, and needs a little bump.

The EVE comparison, was meant to only compare what it means to PVP combat. Yeah I know you can take a miner out and PVE, but hey, YOU CAN'T DO THAT ON DUST. What you can do is PVP.

And Ethics. You call it Ethics.

You know, the early colonist and soldiers feared the Native Americans (my people). They were big on honor in combat, so standing in clear view of one another was the way to go. No sneaky bullshit, all ethical.

The natives, they used camo, surprise, deceit. They would slit your throat while you slept, never giving you the chance to fight back. The warriors, they fought with honor too. They understood well, that a superior force was only as superior as their tactics.

That is what dust currently is. Play to win.

So by your reasoning, we should identify what is OP, and all together, not spec into it? Are you that DAFT! Ethics has no place in new eden!

Yeah yea, you want pve blah blah blah. Guess what, THIS is what you have. It's not changing anytime soon.

i am native american... Seminole RunningBear is my tribe and birth name... that said, u r a disgrace... only commanchi, and mohawks did as u say... the rest MOVED elswhere to be left alone... thos 2 tribes btw (that fought as u described) were exterminated

Money in eve does not come from pvp. It comes from pve - high value moons & moon mining, ship production (capital, t2, t3) and sales, wormholes, research, lp sales, hauling, trading, incursions, missions, mining. It is incredibly rare to make money off of pvp - pvp is done mostly to deny resources and income to others, to safeguard ones 'territory' and because its fun.

Your analogy is flawed by the mere idea that the most money comes from pvp, while stuff like suicide tanking can be worth a bit it's not nearly as good income (or as consistent) as owning an r64 moon.

Yup. You'll be punished due to the way our societies' work however. Morals are nothing more than rules that humans made up for themselves. There are no great forces of good and evil, and the universe does not judge you for your actions.
This is not me saying I don't find murder and **** disgusting, I do find them to be horrid and disgusting things and think that anyone who does either should be punished. I just understand that I find them to be horrid things because my brain is hardwired that way, not because they are fundamentally wrong with the balance of the universe or whatever. I just have an understanding that morals are unsubstantial, and the only thing holding us to them are our own minds...
Just a bit of philosophy.

I agree with some of your points, I think that most of what we consider morals are relative, but some things like stealing from the poor and hurting or killing people just because you can is wrong.

As far as this game goes, its not fun when everyone is exploiting everything and always working to stack the odds in their favor, its ruining the game for vets and new people.

This a videogame, its not real life war, its supposed to be fun, its not fun if its unbalance and everyone is forced to use the same gear.

Money in eve does not come from pvp. It comes from pve - high value moons & moon mining, ship production (capital, t2, t3) and sales, wormholes, research, lp sales, hauling, trading, incursions, missions, mining. It is incredibly rare to make money off of pvp - pvp is done mostly to deny resources and income to others, to safeguard ones 'territory' and because its fun.

Your analogy is flawed by the mere idea that the most money comes from pvp, while stuff like suicide tanking can be worth a bit it's not nearly as good income (or as consistent) as owning an r64 moon.

Yes, its called ethics. By that notion, the us is scrubs, for not nuking everyone. Definition noted, lulled at, and discarded.

WTF ??? Tech was about PVP not moon mining.... Sure you moon mined for it but it was the PVP that allowed it to happen.


Same with Capital building in a giant open pvp zone....

If you said 0.0 Incursions produced the most ISK compared to others then sure.... even that has a huge element of PVP ask rooks and kings.

Nothing happens in a giant 0.0 Open free pvp zone without it being directly related back to PVP.

R64 moons were upwards of 20b isk monthly per moon and all you had to do was fuel the pos and empty the silos. Pvp was not a money generating activity

R64 moons were upwards of 20b isk monthly per moon and all you had to do was fuel the pos and empty the silos. Pvp was not a money generating activity

Agreed

ANother one of those respecs topics, there sould be a section forum for that inside a trash can.

This a videogame, its not real life war, its supposed to be fun, its not fun if its unbalance and everyone is forced to use the same gear.

Oh yea setting up then fueling the POS and moving out the stuff was easy as pie :p

no PVP what so ever. or defense of said POS needed...

No it is not, agreed. Though I think the point I was trying to make is that CCP is ultimatly responsible for the imbalances, not the players. I have heard so many players beat down on the try hards, fotm users, Kdr whores, ect. They actually blame the health of the game on the very players that contribute to the health of the game.

So some players pub stomp, don't expect them to drop to your level for the sake of fairness. It takes a lot of time to get that proto, they worked for that gear. And by god I'm going to wear that gear and nothing but. That was the point of my SP was it not.

There are genuine issues with this game, but far too many think the issues are caused by the player, who has no control over anything design wise.

Proto stomp = matchmaking and tiers

Tryhards = proto stomp = refer above

FotM = gear imbalances

You should thank these players for making the issues so very clear even if you yourself refuse to see the truth of the situation.

Pvp was to deny access of that asset to others, it didn't necessarily mean you gained control of it yourself, as said before pvp in the vast majority of cases is almost always a net LOSS of capital. It is supplemented through other things ie. you get to pvp because your alliance controls 300b worth of moons and has assets that make selling moon goo easy (jump bridges etc). The average player is also supplemented by being able to rat or run incursions.

Pvp is not an inherently money generating activity.