Where to being. let's start with deaths.

Deaths are only deaths if you die. right now in Dust if you down someone, you get credit for a kill, even if he is latter revived. and even if he is revived, it still counts as a death for him, even though he did not expend a clone. this should be corrected.

To correct the death issue, a Kill should only be awarded after clone death. insta kill, bleed out, or respawn. If the clone is revived no kill is awarded, and no death is recorded.

Kills. a Kill is the ending on a clone, not wounding, not hurting, not downing, A kill, as stated above only when a clone destroyed, should a kill be awarded. the kill goes to the person who killed him, last blow. all others get as current a kill assist. as they helped, if you want to stop other people stealing your kills, Make sure the guy dies when you're shooting him.

to the Ratio. If you are going to call it a Kill Death ratio, that is waht it is Kills divided by Deaths Kills/Deaths.

If you want to take other things into account, say a Kill Assist ratio, an assist death ratio. that's fine those are easy to do.

I think the main issue here is that you are upset with the determination of kills or death and not the maths of the ratio itself.

Taking down a player should count as a kill.
But there should be a separate statistic of how many killed opponents actually died.

Your own deaths, meanwhile, should only count on when a clone is wasted. This is about overall team performance after all, right?
Your going down should be tracked, though, because it's still an inconvenience for the team.

Edit:
For the total WP amount, I'd suggest having a pool of 100 or maybe even more, but capped at 50 per player.
This prevents lone wolfs from being even stronger loners and makes snipers more likely to actually soften enemies.

And keep in mind that WP rewards should be instant gratification. They need to be applied on kill, not on death. Otherwise the delayed feedback will make combat less satisfying.

I like that idea of a 100 pool but capping at 50. Should make things more interesting and better balanced. I'd make the pool lower though, somewhere around 90 so you don't get 2 people with a full 50 WP reward if they split the damage 50/50.

Actually, thinking about it, two people should always get a full reward if they have about equal contributions.
So a 120 pool would make more sense. With that, two players will almost always get their full 50 WP without feeling that someone killstealed them, while groups bigger than that start getting dimishing returns.
This also means that people would be more likely to buddy up and maybe drag a logi along. That would be a half-squad and fit into an LAV.
It would be an incentive to work in groups without half the team bunching up around a single objective.

I don't know if I agree with you on that. Giving 2 killers a full 50 WP reward for doing half the damage for a kill seems wrong to me. Getting to 50 WP should be a special occasion where you feel you did good by doing most of the damage yourself.
With your 120 pool, a single kill could give 2 people 50 WP and a third person 20 WP. That is too much reward for a single kill IMO.

I'm running on the assumption that WP should reward good playing.
Rewarding players for double-teaming enemies without bunching up too much is a good thing in a tactical shooter, imo.

Also, the payout will almost never be 50/50/20. It's more likely to be 50/50/10 or something. Three people will never contributed evenly.
Even two people might very well get 50/35 or something, if one does much more work than the other.
The 120 pool is to even it out slightly to prevent people from hating their buddy for doing one shot more or something. Imagine a 100 pool and you get 45 or something, which means that you did 45% damage. You KNOW that your buddy got 50. You feel cheated, because you contributed only slightly less than him.

Maybe...
I agree with you about reward. I just think a 50/50/10 or 50/50/20 split is too high.

On this we'll have to disagree I suppose. :)

Guys, removing the reward for knockout and shifting it to termination just means that everyone will double-tap everything forever.
That is *not* good for the gameplay, because you then have to develop OCD to get your kill WP, and makes the nanite injector system pointless, because there will be no one left to revive.

Guys, removing the reward for knockout and shifting it to termination just means that everyone will double-tap everything forever.
That is *not* good for the gameplay, because you then have to develop OCD to get your kill WP, and makes the nanite injector system pointless, because there will be no one left to revive.

And what do ya mean by double tap? There are very few weapons in Dust that doing a double tap would do the right damage to terminate a clone in bleedout. Either a single shot or more than 2 shots are needed.

Imagine this:
You only get WP if the enemy actually dies/bleeds out.
You downed an enemy. You are in a firefight. You are a blueberry.

What do you do? Shot at the other guy or continue shooting at the guy who is bleeding out?
Remember, blueberries are the people that assault HAVs with ARs, hack installations just because of the 50WP and revive you in a firefight because it's 60WP.

Those changes would, would they not, result in something that isn't really KDR any more?

Why not leave kills and deaths as they are, and simply request more statistics. Then we could compare players based on any ratio or rating imaginable. Also people like graphs and pie charts for some reason, this could yield *tons* of pretty graphs and charts.

Those changes would, would they not, result in something that isn't really KDR any more?

Why not leave kills and deaths as they are, and simply request more statistics. Then we could compare players based on any ratio or rating imaginable. Also people like graphs and pie charts for some reason, this could yield *tons* of pretty graphs and charts.

Screw KDR, I want isk destroyed/isk loss ratio.

We need an ISK efficiency indicator ratio , I,e, ISK destroyed to ISK lost.

This is a great thread Grit Breather. You're idea is really ingenious if implemented it will in-courage teamwork and create a healthier environment via people not yelling over the coms about kill stealers and getting revived and killed simultaneously.

Overall awesome idea it will also put an end to KDR whoring.

My main problem with that specific metric is the upcoming Player Market.
I don't know how much you know EVE economics but prices are anything but fixed. EVE can be every bit as complicated as a RL stock exchange. All that richness will eventually come to DUST too.

Because of the above, estimating item costs may well be an impossible task.

All items in Eve have reference prices that are calculated based on some sort of weighted average of the last few months. If you select a bunch of items in your hangar, it will tell you "15 items selected, estimated cost 157000 ISK" so it's obviously pre-calculated.

All that needs to be done is to expand that to Dust items. Heck, it probably happens automatically already.

and here I thought I found an interesting post in a sea of.........

if we are gonna do kdr right that means isk lost to isk destroyed stats, and isk lost to wp earned. I could care less about blending assists into kills.

also if we are talking about WP system revisions how about we get WP for damage done back.

Where to being. let's start with deaths.

Deaths are only deaths if you die. right now in Dust if you down someone, you get credit for a kill, even if he is latter revived. and even if he is revived, it still counts as a death for him, even though he did not expend a clone. this should be corrected.

To correct the death issue, a Kill should only be awarded after clone death. insta kill, bleed out, or respawn. If the clone is revived no kill is awarded, and no death is recorded.

Kills. a Kill is the ending on a clone, not wounding, not hurting, not downing, A kill, as stated above only when a clone destroyed, should a kill be awarded. the kill goes to the person who killed him, last blow. all others get as current a kill assist. as they helped, if you want to stop other people stealing your kills, Make sure the guy dies when you're shooting him.

to the Ratio. If you are going to call it a Kill Death ratio, that is waht it is Kills divided by Deaths Kills/Deaths.

If you want to take other things into account, say a Kill Assist ratio, an assist death ratio. that's fine those are easy to do.

I think the main issue here is that you are upset with the determination of kills or death and not the maths of the ratio itself.

LOL Stick to black boards you would never do well in a real war. ^^^^^^

I agree with the thread OP.
As being a soldier in real life. FPS is trying to simulate that. If i get 1 kills 19 kill assists and 5 deaths it looks bad for my K/D at the end of battle. but lets say damage wise i took down 90% of the persons health on all the 19 assists and with out me each of my team mates that got the kill wouldn't have. instead they would have died, to the enemy's DPS that's a team swing of 19 kills to 19 deaths which is a change of 38 clones that can make or break a match. "but i don't need to tell you for ("hassy dumber then shitz" is good at math.. as he puts in his bio to make him self an elitist) so another question? A guy shoots a man 4 times on the battle field the 4 bullet hits his heart. guy is dead but not fully he is still standing body hasn't dropped. the man can't live anymore physically with no pulse no heart. according too american medical science they say he is dead. second shoot hits him in head knocking him on ground. third person shoots him again and his visual cortex still records the image on his brain as the last thing he saw. Who killed him? remember time doesn't exist according to science. so according to you its the last bullet. well in that case, since in dust the person could still come back to life with a needle. The kill should go to the person that comes along and prevents the clone from being revived. no longer able to come back to existence and last bullet. fits all of you above logic right? "stop trying to act cool by conforming to the current system of thought, you bore me with your bland bandwagon logic -hanz"
done toying with narrow mindedness

My suggestion to the idea would be that every clone killed threw assistance in a match by the player be added to a pool then at the end of the match the total effective hit points of the kill assists be added together divide by number of kills to find avarge of drop-suite hit points. then compared to damage you dealt. standard median. and your given the hypocritical kills added to your K/D. still keep current kills and deaths, but rename it confirmed kills and deaths. so lets say using example above that they all had 100 hp. that's 1900 hp total i did 90% that's 90*19=1710 hp damage to those 19 so i get 17 hypothetical kills rounding down. my match K/d instead of being 1/5 is now 18/5 with 1 confirmed kill and 5 deaths. you could even do it for deaths say all 5 times i died i got killed by 2 people if there k/d got boosted inflated by killing me i could acquire neg hypocritical deaths like 18/7 possibly if both were 1 higher. i know its not perfect but its would be an improvement and keep everyone happy.

if that's to much every 5 assists equals 1 kill for k/d.

I don't care about K/D
tankers and snipers rarely hack objectives. And heavies don't run from objective to objective. thank god dust has a max team vehicle quota or else ever fat boy (heavy) would be in a wheel chair van (LAV) and that's all you see in game. Sure K/D win's close matches, but i don't want it to ever be close. corps that have K/D requirements are dumb. you get a better K/D by running with a good squad unless a solo sniper. if you never let a blue berry in your corp because of K/D your missing possible potential. imagine trying to run as a logi for random heavies in public contracts fighting against PC squads that play together day and night. how could you ever have a negative k/d doing that? thus is why i love the goonswarm story of eve. rookie ship death fleet.

Okay, okay Grit, I'll reply :)

As I think I mentioned previously, it's definitely an interesting idea. While I'm not sure I personally agree with simply consolidating Kills + Assists, I think a way of pushing Assists as a valuable statistic is still a good idea.

I spoke with CCP Thunder about this and it's something we'll try to think up something nifty around. Ultimately though, no real work has been done on this yet and it won't be implemented by 1.8.

lol at kdr even mattering in this game.


but i do think a death should only count if your clone has been terminated, your foe should still gain credit as a kill for incapacitating you. reason being: it would be very costly in ammo to terminate every clone you incapacitate. especially in guns where every shot of ammo counts like snipers. and imagine you are in the frontlines killing tons of people with your teamates. after the exchange of gunfire, people on the winning side of the confrontation would be fighting to terminate clones. and think of all the dead bodies you would need to terminate. aint nobody got time fo dat. you still have other objectives to assault with your team.

Okay, okay Grit, I'll reply :)

As I think I mentioned previously, it's definitely an interesting idea. While I'm not sure I personally agree with simply consolidating Kills Assists, I think a way of pushing Assists as a valuable statistic is still a good idea.

I spoke with CCP Thunder about this and it's something we'll try to think up something nifty around. Ultimately though, no real work has been done on this yet and it won't be implemented by 1.8.

This is probably something that has already been brought up in this thread, though I'd like to mention it without reading through the entire thread since I remember bringing this up in Closed Beta and being shouted down by the KDR monkeys.

Calculate KD the same as it is in Eve. There should be no such thing as an Assist aside from Intel Kill Assists. Anyone who contributed damage to the kill gets credited with the kill (though only if the killed is sent back to respawn which is the only way that the death is counted as well).

Each person who contributed to the kill should get a % of the WP for the kill proportional to the amount of damage they inflicted on the killed. Add bonuses for "Final Blow" and "Top Damage".

Okay, okay Grit, I'll reply :)

As I think I mentioned previously, it's definitely an interesting idea. While I'm not sure I personally agree with simply consolidating Kills + Assists, I think a way of pushing Assists as a valuable statistic is still a good idea.

I spoke with CCP Thunder about this and it's something we'll try to think up something nifty around. Ultimately though, no real work has been done on this yet and it won't be implemented by 1.8.

{TL;DR}
KDR in DUST means the same thing as other FPS games, it's the quantity of your deaths vs. the quantity of your kills. This classic meaning doesn't quite match up with what DUST is.
I suggest death quantity should remain the same, but kills are merged with kill assists to basically give a running tally of a player's ongoing "contribution to kills".
{/TL;DR}

*** Update 1 ***
An idea brought on by Sole Fenychs.
Instead of having all Kill Contributions take from a pool of 60 WP for each downed player, there should be a pool of 90 WP per kill, but each contributing player will be capped at 50 WP max so nobody can get a full 90 for a kill.

*** Original ***
I'll start by declaring this: I do not believe the classic meaning of KDR (as in CoD or BF) has very much in common with the type of game DUST is trying to become. On the other hand, DUST is a FPS game so we can't just remove KDR because of the types of players DUST attracts.

So what is KDR (Kill to Death Ratio) in DUST today?
KDR is a number representing the ratio of your total kills divided by your total deaths. Simple enough, but what does that mean?
Let's start with deaths. A death is when you die. Pretty easy to grasp and not much complications there. If I die, my death toll goes up by 1. Makes sense. But what about kills?
Well, first we need to look at what a kill is in DUST. Kills in DUST aren't all the straightforward. They are usually not performed by a single player but rather by multiple players at the same time. Once someone dies, the majority of these contributing players gain a Kill Assist and the one lucky (bastard) who deals the last blow gains a Kill. This is the case even if one player stripped away 99% of an enemy's HP and then another player steps in and finishes him off with 1 bullet.
I'd hardly call the above rewards and ranking contributions fair. They don't even make sense.

So what am I suggesting for kills?
First off, we should remove the entire notion of Kill Assists. Why? Because we'll be merging them with Kills in a better way.
Now we only have Kills (and Deaths which have not changed). So does every player who shot at an enemy gain a Kill? Yes and no. First the 'yes' part.
Every player who shot at a downed enemy should gain a Kill Contribution ranking for his death. How does Kill differ from Kill Contribution? Well, that's the fun part.
In my new system, every player gains a fraction of a kill corresponding to the percent of total damage he or she contributed to that kill. For example, let's say 3 players shot at an enemy and eventually took him down. He's dead. The first player stripped away 50% of the enemy's HP while the remaining 2 started shooting a bit later and both contributed an additional 25%. Between the 3 of them they all earned 1 kill.
By the numbers in the example above, I suggest the following Kill Contribution be rewarded to each of the 3 players:

• First - 0.50
• Second - 0.25
• Third - 0.25

Why do I want this change?
Classic KDR is all about being a long wolf, a solo player. The most important thing you do is farm kills and try to stay alive more than the people you kill. But that's not DUST.
DUST is about team play. DUST is about one team farming another team as a whole. DUST is about tight knit squads supporting each other.
Classic KDR just can't provide the type of metric DUST needs.

And what about War Points for kills?
I suggest the total kill WP go up from 50 to 60-70. That new score should be split between all the kill contributors according to their contribution percentage.


*** Optional Extra ***
This is something I'm not sure about so didn't want to fit it into my main piece.
What about deaths and revives?
Should a person being revived only contribute 0.5 Kill Contribution points to whomever shot at him? My gut feeling says yes (but maybe a slightly higher number like 0.8) but I am really not sure about this.

Now go ahead.
Rip through my idea and shred it to bits so I can correct it.

better idea- add a war point per death ratio as well