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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
801
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dont believe me? read through the bug report section.
here all even provide an example
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011
see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it.
THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs.
This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers.
So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? |
Vanell Sin
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
32
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
We dont care
Just play the god damn game
If you dont like it move to something else
Im playing since Uprising 1.0 and still have 8m SP.Im I doing something wrong?
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Aikuchi Tomaru
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1576
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't see anything that supports your argument in that link. If a player encounters a bug they try to replicate it. But maybe it's a bug that has something to do with the console of the player? Maybe something with how he skilled? Or his fitting? Or with his name, the corp he's in, the date he created his account. There can be tons of stupid reasons why something doesn't work the way it's intented to work. That's why they ask them to try to replicate the issue.
Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
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CCP Saberwing
C C P
C C P Alliance
950
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things?
Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game.
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian
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BAD FURRY
Oh No You Didn't
276
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things?
so whats the point ?
you must be new to CCP,s games
heres a vid for you HTFU
Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
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Denak Kalamari
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
849
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 10:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Basing your entire argument on a single post made in a single thread on a single forum seems a little shaky.
Grahisha of ILF // Writer of Thoughts of a Clone Soldier // Latest entry published Jan. 14th
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
801
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Denak Kalamari wrote:Basing your entire argument on a single post made in a single thread on a single forum seems a little shaky.
it was an example... if you read the OP please notice i said the entire bug report forum was my evidence :P
it was just the most recent example. |
Denak Kalamari
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
849
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 10:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:
it was an example... if you read the OP please notice i said the entire bug report forum was my evidence :P
it was just the most recent example.
Well, CCP answered this for me:
CCP Saberwing wrote:Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game.
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :) Finding specific issues is a lot more complicated than you might think, and even if you do hours upon hours of QA testing and combing through tons of code to refine every single bug, something is deemed to slip through when certain, very specific conditions are met. It's not realistic to expect the QA team to find the issues that have specific, and very specific conditions.
Grahisha of ILF // Writer of Thoughts of a Clone Soldier // Latest entry published Jan. 14th
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
801
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 10:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur
THATS the purpose of a Q/A department....
they are paid for it because they have the ability to dedecate more to finding those things out and the training to do so.
THATS what makes them a Q/A department.... THATS the core of their job... its not ours.
THEIR job is to find those precise conditions... thats the whole reason they exsist |
thomas mak
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS
Public Disorder.
20
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
they can't test is because CCP don't have SponkSponkSponk's PS3, or Mango Dee's PS3, so they can't do a fair test, it is not CCP's problem
for the lag
-it may cause by your PS3, don't put it behind your TV if you do, heat of TV can make PS3 lag, and place your PS3 at some place cooler or wind flows, or find a mini fan to cool your PS3, at least this work on my PS3
-it may cause by worge battle server region, worge battle server region makes me lag so much that I flying around the map, so check your battle server region is corret or not
Real tanker dies with their tanks!
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
801
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
thomas mak wrote:they can't test is because CCP don't have SponkSponkSponk's PS3, or Mango Dee's PS3, so they can't do a fair test, it is not CCP's problem
for the lag
-it may cause by your PS3, don't put it behind your TV if you do, heat of TV can make PS3 lag, and place your PS3 at some place cooler or wind flows, or find a mini fan to cool your PS3, at least this work on my PS3
-it may cause by worge battle server region, worge battle server region makes me lag so much that I flying around the map, so check your battle server region is corret or not
you diddnt even read that thread did you.... |
boba's fetta
Dead Man's Game
197
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Posted - 2014.01.15 11:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur
THATS the purpose of a Q/A department.... they are paid for it because they have the ability to dedecate more to finding those things out and the training to do so. THATS what makes them a Q/A department.... THATS the core of their job... its not ours. THEIR job is to find those precise conditions... thats the whole reason they exsist
you sir are an idiot.
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4625
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Posted - 2014.01.15 11:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur
THATS the purpose of a Q/A department.... they are paid for it because they have the ability to dedecate more to finding those things out and the training to do so. THATS what makes them a Q/A department.... THATS the core of their job... its not ours. THEIR job is to find those precise conditions... thats the whole reason they exsist
If it makes you feel any better, I run through the technical support/bugs section daily to find and record bugs that people report so that I can upload them to youtube and help narrow them down.
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
803
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Posted - 2014.01.15 11:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
boba's fetta wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur
THATS the purpose of a Q/A department.... they are paid for it because they have the ability to dedecate more to finding those things out and the training to do so. THATS what makes them a Q/A department.... THATS the core of their job... its not ours. THEIR job is to find those precise conditions... thats the whole reason they exsist you sir are an idiot.
im not joking, read teh post i linked its a perfect example.
Q/As have more resources and abilities to do this stuff. we cant actually test to that extent becuase we cant eliminate variables the way they can.
their job is to use the tools they have that we dont to eliminate variables and find those precice conditions.
they have acess to the code
they have dev tools
they have the ability to eliminate variables
we dont have those things, we cant use those things. therefore theres a limit on what players can do and Q/As job is to go above and beyond that limit.
that post is a perfect example of a player hitting the absolute limit of what players can test, and the devs asking them to go further... something only their Q/A team would actually have the power to do.
its our job to report... its THEIR job to investigate. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
803
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur
THATS the purpose of a Q/A department.... they are paid for it because they have the ability to dedecate more to finding those things out and the training to do so. THATS what makes them a Q/A department.... THATS the core of their job... its not ours. THEIR job is to find those precise conditions... thats the whole reason they exsist If it makes you feel any better, I run through the technical support/bugs section daily to find and record bugs that people report so that I can upload them to youtube and help narrow them down.
you also have a capture card though wich most do not have. the funny thing is that YOU can find ways to replicate and record but the Q/A department somehow has trouble doing the same while having more resources? |
Michael Arck
Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu
2602
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Oh brother, the power of anonymity at work.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu.
For the State!!
[email protected]
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Jastad
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
421
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Posted - 2014.01.15 11:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote: CUT.
There's an OLD catch in the world of Videogames, born with Ultima Ascension.
"IF the the game is Huge, Huge are the Bugs"
I'm not a CCP fanboy, but we must say that QA can't do all the test. Too many variant, too many thing a player can do, to many conditions.
Otherwise you don't understand why TES or Fallout always come out with huge bugs. And we are talking about a multimillion company making multimillion game.
But some concern about QA is coming from me: why the HMG fix took SOOOOOOOOO long, when all you need to do is try it?
God bless Ghab, savior of the heavys
Once you try "HMG-FAT" you never get back...
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TheWee BabySeamus
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
86
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Posted - 2014.01.15 11:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game. What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
RACIAL HEAVIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND SCOUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU NOOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wee Baby Seamus-------------->DDB Director & #1 Sex chat operator
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
803
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jastad wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote: CUT. There's an OLD catch in the world of Videogames, born with Ultima Ascension. "IF the the game is Huge, Huge are the Bugs" I'm not a CCP fanboy, but we must say that QA can't do all the test. Too many variant, too many thing a player can do, to many conditions. Otherwise you don't understand why TES or Fallout always come out with huge bugs. And we are talking about a multimillion company making multimillion game. But some concern about QA is coming from me: why the HMG fix took SOOOOOOOOO long, when all you need to do is try it? God bless Ghab, savior of the heavys
yah alot of the bugs can be seen and glaringly obvious simply be playing with it for more then 10 minuites....
and rather then play with it for 10 minuites all we get is a "can you get this on vedeo please" responce on the bug forum. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
803
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Oh brother, the power of anonymity at work.
CCP has my credit card info :P im not anonymous to them :P |
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Horizen Kenpachi
TACTICAL STRIKE ELITE
92
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Denak Kalamari wrote:Basing your entire argument on a single post made in a single thread on a single forum seems a little shaky.
Gdgivjhffbdibfghyhcgfjujidfvgvfhhjxdhfhcfjgc yeah man i got crabs should i report it
Hit me with your nerf bat.
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Jastad
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
421
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Jastad wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote: CUT. There's an OLD catch in the world of Videogames, born with Ultima Ascension. "IF the the game is Huge, Huge are the Bugs" I'm not a CCP fanboy, but we must say that QA can't do all the test. Too many variant, too many thing a player can do, to many conditions. Otherwise you don't understand why TES or Fallout always come out with huge bugs. And we are talking about a multimillion company making multimillion game. But some concern about QA is coming from me: why the HMG fix took SOOOOOOOOO long, when all you need to do is try it? God bless Ghab, savior of the heavys yah alot of the bugs can be seen and glaringly obvious simply be playing with it for more then 10 minuites.... and rather then play with it for 10 minuites all we get is a "can you get this on vedeo please" responce on the bug forum.
Probably they are few, so their play test time is limited.
Probably they have been busy trying the new scout and heavy, to not make them OP.
Once you try "HMG-FAT" you never get back...
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
804
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jastad wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Jastad wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote: CUT. There's an OLD catch in the world of Videogames, born with Ultima Ascension. "IF the the game is Huge, Huge are the Bugs" I'm not a CCP fanboy, but we must say that QA can't do all the test. Too many variant, too many thing a player can do, to many conditions. Otherwise you don't understand why TES or Fallout always come out with huge bugs. And we are talking about a multimillion company making multimillion game. But some concern about QA is coming from me: why the HMG fix took SOOOOOOOOO long, when all you need to do is try it? God bless Ghab, savior of the heavys yah alot of the bugs can be seen and glaringly obvious simply be playing with it for more then 10 minuites.... and rather then play with it for 10 minuites all we get is a "can you get this on vedeo please" responce on the bug forum. Probably they are few, so their play test time is limited. Probably they have been busy trying the new scout and heavy, to not make them OP.
thats the prime suspect right there.
they simply dont have the resources to have a big enough team to dedicate enough people to spend all their time replicating exsisting bugs.
its not that they dont have a Q/A team... its that the one they have doesnt have enough people dedicated solely to replication.
and replication is one of the things that a Q/A team can do that players for the most part CANT... and yet thats precicly what CCP is asking of its players for damn near every bug. (and if we want it fixed within 6 months we dont really have a choice but to find a way) |
THE GREY CARDINAL
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE
DARKSTAR ARMY
365
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Happy now OP? Your ignorance has been remedied. Now thank CCP for removing your ignorance and think about posting a relevant thread instead of trying some FUD. 
Electronic Warfare GOD in the making
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
Public Disorder.
238
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ghost, Have you ever worked on a software development team? Because your questions/attitude suggest you have no idea the complexity associated with debugging or the realities associated with development and testing of code -- not to mention the title of your thread is flat out incorrect....Leadfoot |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
956
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Can I volunteer for the play testing team? I'll take AUR for payments. =D
Buff passive scans & fix TTK!
My Closed Beta Alts - Overlord Ulath, Overlord Bosse, Overlord Zero
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Krasymptimo
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Michael Arck wrote:Oh brother, the power of anonymity at work. CCP has my credit card info :P im not anonymous to them :P
Oh good, that means they can charge you however much it costs to hire a couple of thousand dedicated playtesters that you seem to desire.
I'm sure CCP would never turn down such a generous offer. |
Toyboi
The Rainbow Effect
170
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game. What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
the uprising 1.0 patch kinda speaks for itself.
If you try to land people on the moon and something go's wrong people die..
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
804
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:Ghost, Have you ever worked on a software development team? Because your questions/attitude suggest you have no idea the complexity associated with debugging or the realities associated with development and testing of code -- not to mention the title of your thread is flat out incorrect....Leadfoot
Wierdly enough i HAVE been in a game dev team, although it was not of the coded variety in that case.
i do however had loads of experiance replicating bugs.... remember the invisable shotgunners a while back? yah your welcome :P
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Krasymptimo
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:
CCP has my credit card info :P im not anonymous to them :P
Bug removal in coding can be an extremely frustating activity, an entire feature could produce a stack overflow if you didn't quite get the terminating conditions on a recursive algorithm just right. Or calculations incorrect because you made a typo or accidentally transposed a character or fatfinger an extra "." or number.
Sometimes bug-hunting and removal is the greatest detective activity you can play, and the best help you can get is quantity. That is something that can be unfeasible in all but the supergiants of game development companies, thousands of people just playtesting. It gets very expensive. However, Mmre people giving their insight, more people submitting videos with a different perspective, it all helps to find that mission condition in the recursion. or that extra ".". |
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
Public Disorder.
238
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:38:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:Ghost, Have you ever worked on a software development team? Because your questions/attitude suggest you have no idea the complexity associated with debugging or the realities associated with development and testing of code -- not to mention the title of your thread is flat out incorrect....Leadfoot Wierdly enough i HAVE been in a game dev team, although it was not of the coded variety in that case. i do however had loads of experiance replicating bugs.... remember the invisable shotgunners a while back? yah your welcome :P
So you've never written or debugged code. Got it.
Replicating bugs is not debugging or fixing them -- replicating bugs is the easy part (that's often not that easy).
Thanks for your help on the shotgun bug....Leadfoot |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
804
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
Krasymptimo wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:
CCP has my credit card info :P im not anonymous to them :P
Bug removal in coding can be an extremely frustating activity, an entire feature could produce a stack overflow if you didn't quite get the terminating conditions on a recursive algorithm just right. Or calculations incorrect because you made a typo or accidentally transposed a character or fatfinger an extra "." or number. Sometimes bug-hunting and removal is the greatest detective activity you can play, and the best help you can get is quantity. That is something that can be unfeasible in all but the supergiants of game development companies, thousands of people just playtesting. It gets very expensive. However, Mmre people giving their insight, more people submitting videos with a different perspective, it all helps to find that mission condition in the recursion. or that extra ".".
my point was that there is a limit to what you as a player can replicate.
and CCP ruitinly asks things of players that they cannot do, like int he example of OP where they ask him to replicate things using tools the QA team NOT the players have access too...
isolating things isnt something a player can do for the most part on a live server with payer interfearance, its soething that is done in a controlled environment where you can carefully eliminate variables without other players wandering around muching up the tests or introducing more variables as your trying to narrow them down.
while my title may of been a little harsh the point is that CCP is asking things of the players that the players cant reasonably acomplish as a replacement for adaquate Q/A |
Krasymptimo
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 13:15:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Krasymptimo wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:
CCP has my credit card info :P im not anonymous to them :P
Bug removal in coding can be an extremely frustating activity, an entire feature could produce a stack overflow if you didn't quite get the terminating conditions on a recursive algorithm just right. Or calculations incorrect because you made a typo or accidentally transposed a character or fatfinger an extra "." or number. Sometimes bug-hunting and removal is the greatest detective activity you can play, and the best help you can get is quantity. That is something that can be unfeasible in all but the supergiants of game development companies, thousands of people just playtesting. It gets very expensive. However, Mmre people giving their insight, more people submitting videos with a different perspective, it all helps to find that mission condition in the recursion. or that extra ".". my point was that there is a limit to what you as a player can replicate. and CCP ruitinly asks things of players that they cannot do, like int he example of OP where they ask him to replicate things using tools the QA team NOT the players have access too... isolating things isnt something a player can do for the most part on a live server with payer interfearance, its soething that is done in a controlled environment where you can carefully eliminate variables without other players wandering around muching up the tests or introducing more variables as your trying to narrow them down. while my title may of been a little harsh the point is that CCP is asking things of the players that the players cant reasonably acomplish as a replacement for adaquate Q/A
Find a few more examples of this occuring, otherwise this is just an edge case where the Q/A team are having difficulties because of the multiple variables occuring and haven't got a high staffing level or the time to account for all these variables and the players have difficulty because they don't have access to replicate their bugs in a controlled environment. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
804
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 13:17:00 -
[34] - Quote
Krasymptimo wrote:
Find a few more examples of this occuring, otherwise this is just an edge case where the Q/A team are having difficulties because of the multiple variables occuring and haven't got a high staffing level or the time to account for all these variables and the players have difficulty because they don't have access to replicate their bugs in a controlled environment.
nearly every single bug report with a blue post results in them unable to replicate and asking for video.
basically if you dont have a capture card and purposfully seek out footage you may as well not post any bugs whatsoever. |
pyramidhead 420
Carbon 7
CRONOS.
288
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 13:19:00 -
[35] - Quote
boba's fetta wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur
THATS the purpose of a Q/A department.... they are paid for it because they have the ability to dedecate more to finding those things out and the training to do so. THATS what makes them a Q/A department.... THATS the core of their job... its not ours. THEIR job is to find those precise conditions... thats the whole reason they exsist you sir are an idiot.
my thoughts were along the same lines...more like F^c*ing idiot tho |
Brush Master
HavoK Core
RISE of LEGION
1025
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 13:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game. What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
This is another area to approve upon, notification of bug fixes that are reported in the bugs section, a lot of fixes we never know about or are not told about till a month later when the next release comes out. What if when you have a QA/Dev collecting information from a post you would then use that post as a status update thread? you would need to keep the thread url as part of the bug and just post an update before closing it out. It would go a long ways at keeping us informed.
514th Wing // Team Fairy DUST // Havok Core
[email protected]
|
steadyhand amarr
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
2151
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 13:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
This thread is so ******* painfull to read. Ghost how the **** do u think make the game and complie the code. The very nature of programing means u can test the dam thing.
Programing games is one of the hardest things to do. Thats why games programming corses allow one of wtf bugs. Because its complety possable u simple never encoutered it before.
I new one guy whos code failed due to chipset of the 1 computer of a lap of hundered being diffrent. His face was awsome when his (eventual perfect pass) blue screened for the first.
This why programer forgive strange bugs and go irate over blantent ones :-P
"i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk"
winner of EU squad cup
GOGO power rangers
|
calisk galern
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
1618
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 13:44:00 -
[38] - Quote
ya this is standard bug testing/fixing methods as a programmer.
we can either spend all day trying to replicate your bug or you can show us how to replicate it and we'll have it fixed in 15 minutes. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
805
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 13:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
steadyhand amarr wrote:This thread is so ******* painfull to read. Ghost how the **** do u think make the game and complie the code. The very nature of programing means u can test the dam thing.
Programing games is one of the hardest things to do. Thats why games programming corses allow one of wtf bugs. Because its complety possable u simple never encoutered it before.
I new one guy whos code failed due to chipset of the 1 computer of a lap of hundered being diffrent. His face was awsome when his (eventual perfect pass) blue screened for the first.
This why programer forgive strange bugs and go irate over blantent ones :-P
how about bugs that have exsisted for a year :P
like the way the railgun randomly overheats without shooting
or the way railguns slugs phase through objects
or the way railguns shoot and you get heat but no projectile or damage is produced.
those bugs are all over a year old now and CCPs stance is "if you dont have video it doesnt exsist"
ive made more threads reguarding these issues alone that i just cant be bothered to go through the same song and dance where its not real if you dont have video. |
Drud Green
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
195
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 13:53:00 -
[40] - Quote
Hahahahaha all the people defending Ccp with "Hey op, ccp is too dumb and poor to fix dust, don't pick on them!" |
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Akdhar Saif
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
172
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:03:00 -
[41] - Quote
I get the feeling they don't play the game themselves. Some of the issues they want us reporting would be easily identifiable if they just played a couple of matches themselves.
Give all your dev's access to all equipment and have them play an hour every day with every type of build they can think of. |
Krasymptimo
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:06:00 -
[42] - Quote
Drud Green wrote:Hahahahaha all the people defending Ccp with "Hey op, ccp is too dumb and poor to fix dust, don't pick on them!"
Let me know when you make an intelligent post.
Chosts Chance wrote:how about bugs that have exsisted for a year :P
like the way the railgun randomly overheats without shooting
or the way railguns slugs phase through objects
or the way railguns shoot and you get heat but no projectile or damage is produced.
those bugs are all over a year old now and CCPs stance is "if you dont have video it doesnt exsist"
ive made more threads reguarding these issues alone that i just cant be bothered to go through the same song and dance where its not real if you dont have video.
That just proves the bugs are difficult to replicate, I can say I have never ran into such bugs and I bet a majority of people haven't either. If you can't replicate it, and no-one has clear evidence it exists then "absence of evidence is evidence of absence"
Devs ask for the videos because if you already have one or know how to replicate it by step-by-step instructions, why duplicate work? |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
805
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:11:00 -
[43] - Quote
Krasymptimo wrote:Drud Green wrote:Hahahahaha all the people defending Ccp with "Hey op, ccp is too dumb and poor to fix dust, don't pick on them!" Let me know when you make an intelligent post. Chosts Chance wrote:how about bugs that have exsisted for a year :P
like the way the railgun randomly overheats without shooting
or the way railguns slugs phase through objects
or the way railguns shoot and you get heat but no projectile or damage is produced.
those bugs are all over a year old now and CCPs stance is "if you dont have video it doesnt exsist"
ive made more threads reguarding these issues alone that i just cant be bothered to go through the same song and dance where its not real if you dont have video. That just proves the bugs are difficult to replicate, I can say I have never ran into such bugs and I bet a majority of people haven't either. If you can't replicate it, and no-one has clear evidence it exists then "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" Devs ask for the videos because if you already have one or know how to replicate it by step-by-step instructions, why duplicate work?
the replication instructions for railguns is to use the damn things for more then 10 minuites, anyone who spends ANY time in a railtank can verify their prevelence.
there ARE no replication instructions for some things, its random in the case of the railgun object phasing we have no idea how to do it on purpose.
the random overheat is... random although it involves that you fire the gun alot and eventually it will bug out and either stop shooting, randomly overheat after a period of shooting when you havnt shot enough to legitimatly overheat the weapon. OR it will go nuts and not stop shooting at all and just keep shooting untill it overheats (sometimes even after overheat)
theres no replication instructions... there just isnt. and if you dont provide 100% step by step instructions then your SOL and the bugs will persist for a year.
they dont test... they only verify what WE test. WE have to figure out how to replicate the bug, WE have to provide evidence of the bug. they just verify.
|
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
805
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:22:00 -
[44] - Quote
basically TLDR:
if we as players dont know how to replicate it CCP cant replicate it and it will never get fixed.
proof?: year old railgun bugs that we cant replicate and therefore are still in the game since open beta |
The Robot Devil
Molon Labe.
Public Disorder.
1562
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:22:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur
THATS the purpose of a Q/A department.... they are paid for it because they have the ability to dedecate more to finding those things out and the training to do so. THATS what makes them a Q/A department.... THATS the core of their job... its not ours. THEIR job is to find those precise conditions... thats the whole reason they exsist If it makes you feel any better, I run through the technical support/bugs section daily to find and record bugs that people report so that I can upload them to youtube and help narrow them down. you also have a capture card though wich most do not have. the funny thing is that YOU can find ways to replicate and record but the Q/A department somehow has trouble doing the same while having more resources?
Stumbling across a bug during use is way different than forcing one out. I program industrial programmable logic controllers (PLC) and there are times when bugs only do something if something else is half way through cycle c and only while in subroutine 3. We also program with icons that represent the action and provide feed bad data. It is hard to do like that, I couldn't imagine trying to read all of that.
GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Hunter S. Thompson
|
Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1035
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:27:00 -
[46] - Quote
The PS3 is the test server. When ready, the game will move to the real servers GÇö TranquilityGǪ on the PC.
Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!
|
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
805
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:28:00 -
[47] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur
THATS the purpose of a Q/A department.... they are paid for it because they have the ability to dedecate more to finding those things out and the training to do so. THATS what makes them a Q/A department.... THATS the core of their job... its not ours. THEIR job is to find those precise conditions... thats the whole reason they exsist If it makes you feel any better, I run through the technical support/bugs section daily to find and record bugs that people report so that I can upload them to youtube and help narrow them down. you also have a capture card though wich most do not have. the funny thing is that YOU can find ways to replicate and record but the Q/A department somehow has trouble doing the same while having more resources? Stumbling across a bug during use is way different than forcing one out. I program industrial programmable logic controllers (PLC) and there are times when bugs only do something if something else is half way through cycle c and only while in subroutine 3. We also program with icons that represent the action and provide feed bad data. It is hard to do like that, I couldn't imagine trying to read all of that.
CCP cant seem to fix any bugs that we as players cant replicate though.
railgun bugs being my personal favorite example
so CCP seems to expect players to all the work while they simply verify what we can replicate and fix that. |
Krasymptimo
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:basically TLDR:
if we as players dont know how to replicate it CCP cant replicate it and it will never get fixed.
proof?: year old railgun bugs that we cant replicate and therefore are still in the game since open beta
So what's your point? That some bugs are still in the game because we can't find the environment in which they are caused?
You just proved my point. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
807
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:40:00 -
[49] - Quote
Krasymptimo wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:basically TLDR:
if we as players dont know how to replicate it CCP cant replicate it and it will never get fixed.
proof?: year old railgun bugs that we cant replicate and therefore are still in the game since open beta So what's your point? That some bugs are still in the game because we can't find the environment in which they are caused? You just proved my point.
if WE the players cant replicate something then it wont get fixed....
aka WE are CCPs QA, they simply take what WE can replicate it, verify it, then fix it, but issues that we are unable to replicate on command dont seem to even get investigated CCP side of things.
CCP needs specialised peopel that are dedicated to replicating persistant year long bugs rather then forcing players to do the work for free if they ever want to see it fixed.
its been a damn year, persistant through EVERY build of the game outside of the originals on the other game engine.
as much information as possable has been handed over multiple times from multiple sources but since we the players dont have replication instructions for 100% on command replication of the bug/s it wont ever be fixed.
do you not see a problem with that? |
Krasymptimo
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:59:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Krasymptimo wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:basically TLDR:
if we as players dont know how to replicate it CCP cant replicate it and it will never get fixed.
proof?: year old railgun bugs that we cant replicate and therefore are still in the game since open beta So what's your point? That some bugs are still in the game because we can't find the environment in which they are caused? You just proved my point. if WE the players cant replicate something then it wont get fixed.... aka WE are CCPs QA, they simply take what WE can replicate it, verify it, then fix it, but issues that we are unable to replicate on command dont seem to even get investigated CCP side of things. CCP needs specialised peopel that are dedicated to replicating persistant year long bugs rather then forcing players to do the work for free if they ever want to see it fixed. its been a damn year, persistant through EVERY build of the game outside of the originals on the other game engine. as much information as possable has been handed over multiple times from multiple sources but since we the players dont have replication instructions for 100% on command replication of the bug/s it wont ever be fixed. do you not see a problem with that?
No, again, because if you can't replicate it 100% without fail, you haven't found the sole source of the bug and CCP maybe be slightly closer in their search but not by much. Also because we, the players, number in the thousands, and If we say for the sake of argument and numbers CCP has 100 employed playtesters in their Q&A and we have 5000 people playing the same hours as the playtesters work. The players are 50x more likely to find a bug and remember the situation that caused it. If we then remember the playtesters need to be paid, well go with a low conservative estimate of -ú15000 a year. That's -ú1,500,000 a year just to find bugs.
I'm all for bug finding, but I also like to be efficient with what I do. Instead of hiring more people, implement tools which can record a Dust clients last 10(?) minutes of input and varibles, and put estimates at what timing the bug happened, they programmers can run through that timeframe of variables and see if they see anything unusual. I don't know if that's possible, but I'd rather CCP spend their resources and money on finding better ways to gather data when bugs occur, rather than just to lever them out with the brute force of sheer numbers. |
|
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
807
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:02:00 -
[51] - Quote
Krasymptimo wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Krasymptimo wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:basically TLDR:
if we as players dont know how to replicate it CCP cant replicate it and it will never get fixed.
proof?: year old railgun bugs that we cant replicate and therefore are still in the game since open beta So what's your point? That some bugs are still in the game because we can't find the environment in which they are caused? You just proved my point. if WE the players cant replicate something then it wont get fixed.... aka WE are CCPs QA, they simply take what WE can replicate it, verify it, then fix it, but issues that we are unable to replicate on command dont seem to even get investigated CCP side of things. CCP needs specialised peopel that are dedicated to replicating persistant year long bugs rather then forcing players to do the work for free if they ever want to see it fixed. its been a damn year, persistant through EVERY build of the game outside of the originals on the other game engine. as much information as possable has been handed over multiple times from multiple sources but since we the players dont have replication instructions for 100% on command replication of the bug/s it wont ever be fixed. do you not see a problem with that? No, again, because if you can't replicate it 100% without fail, you haven't found the sole source of the bug and CCP maybe be slightly closer in their search but not by much. Also because we, the players, number in the thousands, and If we say for the sake of argument and numbers CCP has 100 employed playtesters in their Q&A and we have 5000 people playing the same hours as the playtesters work. The players are 50x more likely to find a bug and remember the situation that caused it. If we then remember the playtesters need to be paid, well go with a low conservative estimate of -ú15000 a year. That's -ú1,500,000 a year just to find bugs. I'm all for bug finding, but I also like to be efficient with what I do. Instead of hiring more people, implement tools which can record a Dust clients last 10(?) minutes of input and varibles, and put estimates at what timing the bug happened, they programmers can run through that timeframe of variables and see if they see anything unusual. I don't know if that's possible, but I'd rather CCP spend their resources and money on finding better ways to gather data when bugs occur, rather than just to lever them out with the brute force of sheer numbers.
yah except those testers have tools WE dont have.
like sterile test environments where they can eliminate variables
logs
access to the games code
if WE cannot replicate it that means that it basically REQUIRES those tools in order to find out its origin.
so the bug will go on forever untill they actually use those tools.
the problem is they arnt even bothering |
pseudosnipre
525
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:11:00 -
[52] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game. What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
Love to see blue tags, thank you!
Today is the sort of day where the sun only comes up to humiliate you.
|
Krasymptimo
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:28:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:
yah except those testers have tools WE dont have.
like sterile test environments where they can eliminate variables
logs
access to the games code
if WE cannot replicate it that means that it basically REQUIRES those tools in order to find out its origin.
so the bug will go on forever untill they actually use those tools.
the problem is they arnt even bothering
What if the sterile test environment is getting rid of those variables in the first place, and therefore the only place that the bug can be found is in the live environment? |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
807
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:29:00 -
[54] - Quote
Krasymptimo wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:
yah except those testers have tools WE dont have.
like sterile test environments where they can eliminate variables
logs
access to the games code
if WE cannot replicate it that means that it basically REQUIRES those tools in order to find out its origin.
so the bug will go on forever untill they actually use those tools.
the problem is they arnt even bothering
What if the sterile test environment is getting rid of those variables in the first place, and therefore the only place that the bug can be found is in the live environment?
please refer to the points where i say "logs" and "access to the games code" for the solution to that problem
im sure as well that they have many other tools at their desposal that we dont.
if one of their tools fail that doesnt mean all of them do. |
Krasymptimo
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:50:00 -
[55] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Krasymptimo wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:
yah except those testers have tools WE dont have.
like sterile test environments where they can eliminate variables
logs
access to the games code
if WE cannot replicate it that means that it basically REQUIRES those tools in order to find out its origin.
so the bug will go on forever untill they actually use those tools.
the problem is they arnt even bothering
What if the sterile test environment is getting rid of those variables in the first place, and therefore the only place that the bug can be found is in the live environment? please refer to the points where i say "logs" and "access to the games code" for the solution to that problem im sure as well that they have many other tools at their desposal that we dont. if one of their tools fail that doesnt mean all of them do.
And what if we can't send them logs and they are simply working on something to solve such an issue? |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
807
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:54:00 -
[56] - Quote
Krasymptimo wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Krasymptimo wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:
yah except those testers have tools WE dont have.
like sterile test environments where they can eliminate variables
logs
access to the games code
if WE cannot replicate it that means that it basically REQUIRES those tools in order to find out its origin.
so the bug will go on forever untill they actually use those tools.
the problem is they arnt even bothering
What if the sterile test environment is getting rid of those variables in the first place, and therefore the only place that the bug can be found is in the live environment? please refer to the points where i say "logs" and "access to the games code" for the solution to that problem im sure as well that they have many other tools at their desposal that we dont. if one of their tools fail that doesnt mean all of them do. And what if we can't send them logs and they are simply working on something to solve such an issue?
logs are recorded on their side and are easily accesable by them as evidenced in the many blue posts in the bug forum.
my point is there is a limit to what the players can do, and if a bug happens to go above that limit then the solution can ONLY be found by the QA team reguardless of how many players are in the game.
the railgun bugs are an example of this.
the problem is that the bugs that fall into this catagory are never fixed
this suggests that CCPs entire bug fixing protol is centered around the players being the ones that replicate bugs and NOT CCP |
Thumb Green
Titans of Phoenix
Legacy Rising
675
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:57:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ghost is right, a lot of bugs are seemingly random to us players; forge gun dry fire, RDV that just sits there not dropping the vehicle, RDV that yoyos the vehicle, rail turret installations that are constantly firing, dying from hitting the ground even though the inertia dampener was on, vehicles that exploding the moment they tough the ground after being dropped by the RDV, vehicles that fall through the ground after being dropped by the RDV, tanks turning the wrong way when the turret is turned too, gun that jumps while taking a short fall in ADS, splash damage not applying at all, splash damage applying to some people but not the person standing right there next too them, splash damage being the only thing applied in direct hits, tank reload bug (like the handheld weapon one we used to get), .
Those are just the things I could think of off the top of my head and each one of them randomly happens and there's no way for me to figure out why because I don't have the proper tools for it. CCP says they have a Q/A team, well they better hire more people for it because we don't have the proper tools for the job and we're not beta testers anymore.
CCP: Is it the most asinine way possible to do this? Yes. Then that's how we're doing it.
|
Regis Blackbird
DUST University
Ivy League
69
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:58:00 -
[58] - Quote
I wanted to stay away from posting, but I just have to step in on CCPs side.
To say they don't perform Q/A is bull, and the nature of certain bugs makes them VERY hard to track down.
Yes, they have dev kits, but there are certain aspects CCP simply can't replicate and accurately simulate.
(The entire Matchmaking hick up during the launch of 1.4 is proof of that).
You also have to realice that ALL reported bugs get prioritized with criticality and priority, which depends on the severity, reproducibility and available workarounds.
The rail bug is probably far down in the backlog.
I have to say that taken into account the size of the company, the fact that this is their first FPS, their first Console game, and is currently undergoing a huge reorganization (since Uprising) and lastly a new EP, I think CCP has done outstanding work with the level of progress we have made since Uprising came out. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
807
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:59:00 -
[59] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Ghost is right, a lot of bugs are seemingly random to us players; forge gun dry fire, RDV that just sits there not dropping the vehicle, RDV that yoyos the vehicle, rail turret installations that are constantly firing, dying from hitting the ground even though the inertia dampener was on, vehicles that exploding the moment they tough the ground after being dropped by the RDV, vehicles that fall through the ground after being dropped by the RDV, tanks turning the wrong way when the turret is turned too, gun that jumps while taking a short fall in ADS, splash damage not applying at all, splash damage applying to some people but not the person standing right there next too them, splash damage being the only thing applied in direct hits, tank reload bug (like the handheld weapon one we used to get), .
Those are just the things I could think of off the top of my head and each one of them randomly happens and there's no way for me to figure out why because I don't have the proper tools for it. CCP says they have a Q/A team, well they better hire more people for it because we don't have the proper tools for the job and we're not beta testers anymore.
and some of those bugs as well have been in the game for more then 6 months.... wich further supports the hypotisis that CCP is not fucised on bug replication and relys on us players to provide step by step instructions if we ever want it fixed. |
Thumb Green
Titans of Phoenix
Legacy Rising
675
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:10:00 -
[60] - Quote
Just remembered disconnects from internal errors and fetal errors,
And on this
Quote:gun that jumps while taking a short fall in ADS
I meant to say "gun that jumps continuously after taking a short fall while in ADS". It's early for me, made quite a few mistakes in that post. I'll correct it, just stating that's what I meant since ghost quoted me and I can't edit his post
CCP: Is it the most asinine way possible to do this? Yes. Then that's how we're doing it.
|
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1539
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:11:00 -
[61] - Quote
Dev tools don't actually help you reproduce a problem. They help you once you've reproduced the problem and let you start to zero in on what is actually causing it. I've been a developer for 8 years now, mostly in healthcare which, as you can imagine, is the most anti-bug sector you can be in. If something doesn't work right people start flipping tables.
People will report a bug, but if they can't give us the steps to reproduce it all we've got is "there's a problem". You can try screwing around in the app to reproduce it, but that's just a blind, dumb luck search. Until the developer can actually see it happen on his machine there isn't a damn thing that can be done to fix it. There is no such thing as a tool that reproduces a bug that the steps are not known for. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
807
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:13:00 -
[62] - Quote
Regis Blackbird wrote:I wanted to stay away from posting, but I just have to step in on CCPs side.
To say they don't perform Q/A is bull, and the nature of certain bugs makes them VERY hard to track down.
Yes, they have dev kits, but there are certain aspects CCP simply can't replicate and accurately simulate.
(The entire Matchmaking hick up during the launch of 1.4 is proof of that).
You also have to realice that ALL reported bugs get prioritized with criticality and priority, which depends on the severity, reproducibility and available workarounds.
The rail bug is probably far down in the backlog.
I have to say that taken into account the size of the company, the fact that this is their first FPS, their first Console game, and is currently undergoing a huge reorganization (since Uprising) and lastly a new EP, I think CCP has done outstanding work with the level of progress we have made since Uprising came out.
i have yet to see a major gamebreaking bug fixed without direct player intervention.
that PC lag bomb sound glitch was int he game for MONTHS being abused an exploited and despite probably thousands and thousands of bug reports on the subject someone else had to come in an spell every tiny detail out for it to be fixed....
granted after that it was indeed fixed in less then 48 hours after the problem was handed out on a silver platter.
basically if we dont specifially provide step by step production results with vedeo to back it up it will go unchecked forever. meaning anything we dont have the capabilities to reproduce will be in the game for a very very very long time, always pushed on the backburner by the things we as players CAN reproduce. |
Krasymptimo
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:14:00 -
[63] - Quote
If the bug happens only on occasion and doesn't break the game, why should it be given such a high priority over things such as more game content and game balance? |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
807
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:19:00 -
[64] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Dev tools don't actually help you reproduce a problem. They help you once you've reproduced the problem and let you start to zero in on what is actually causing it. I've been a developer for 8 years now, mostly in healthcare which, as you can imagine, is the most anti-bug sector you can be in. If something doesn't work right people start flipping tables.
People will report a bug, but if they can't give us the steps to reproduce it all we've got is "there's a problem". You can try screwing around in the app to reproduce it, but that's just a blind, dumb luck search. Until the developer can actually see it happen on his machine there isn't a damn thing that can be done to fix it. There is no such thing as a tool that reproduces a bug that the steps are not known for.
my best friend does QA for a firm dealing with healthcare software... it is tougher then you say...
im very unclear with explaining things... its simply not a strong suit of mine.
so analagy time, if there was a program crippling bug in some software your company had already distributed... but none of your customers could reproduce it or give you any idea whatsoever on how or why it was happening... would it be acceptable in your firm to let that bug run rampant for months untill one of your customers managed to give you step by step instructions?
or would you have somebody pulling every trick you guys know trying to find any way to replicate it so you could fix it as soon as possable?
i am perhaps being a tad unreasonable i am aware of that, its just that the feeling is there that if the players dont intercede and do the job of QA then very little will ever get fixed... |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1540
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:29:00 -
[65] - Quote
If the bug was crippling then we'd be able to reproduce it, and the logs would show clues that lead to the source of the problem. If the problem can't be reproduced then it is, by definition, not crippling. |
Thumb Green
Titans of Phoenix
Legacy Rising
675
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:32:00 -
[66] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:There is no such thing as a tool that reproduces a bug that the steps are not known for.
True, but there is a tool that allows them to watch the code while it's running and when something randomly happens that isn't supposed to they can stop the program and analyze that portion of the code to see what's up. Of course the problem might not be with that portion of the code itself but it's a starting point and if they don't find the problem there they can look into other portions of code that ties into that portion.
However it also extends beyond bugs into balance issues; take the current AV vs tank imbalance, how the fck did that slip by Q/A?
CCP: Is it the most asinine way possible to do this? Yes. Then that's how we're doing it.
|
Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
829
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:32:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game. What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
Before you launch massive rebalancing and content additions into general population....
Why not hold a competitive event for 1-2 days that can be monitored inhouse on the new content? The amount of bugs and problems we could encounter during this process would be immense..
Not to mention a majority of us have capture cards and would use it for you guys have you involved us in the testing process much more then going over whats written down on paper.
Because no matter how much the community get's this cop out, We saw what happened to a Militia nitrous module that should of been thoroughly used during the inhouse testing and Q&A.
Ive been here since beta and can come up with even more embarrising oopsies that are extremely obvious, You guys can't do everything and in majority aren't as intimate with actually PLAYING IT as us.
We are a massive asset for retaining players in massive patch releases, and are crying to do some kind of pre testing so our corporation activity numbers and peer's stop suffering and quitting over the lack of insight or understanding.
Please please stop using your active general population as guinea pigs that you can toss away after done testing with. Implement something.... anything... |
D legendary hero
Ultramarine Corp
1311
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:33:00 -
[68] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game. What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
lolz you just pwn'd the OP
Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubadosPronto saberá justiça
I am a Defender of the downtroddenSoon you will discover justice
|
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
808
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:33:00 -
[69] - Quote
Krasymptimo wrote:If the bug happens only on occasion and doesn't break the game, why should it be given such a high priority over things such as more game content and game balance?
ill give an example, rendering.
from 1.0-1.7 rendering for tanks was terrible.
since it only effected a small portion of the player base and because rendering was done differently to move resources to other areas like art assets and other performance imporvements fixing rendering was palced on the sidelines with a low priority.
what happened was the when rebalancing the tanks all the data they had did not take into concideration that infantry AV was nearly always invisable to the tanks they were assaulting, making them apear weaker on paper then they were in reality.
as a result now that rendering is fixed the changes they made to AV were too far making tanks way to overpowered because the changes were made without the concideration of how much the invisability of infantry AV effected teh game.
a perfect example of what happens when you try to place game content and balance on a higher pedestal then bugs. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
808
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:35:00 -
[70] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:If the bug was crippling then we'd be able to reproduce it, and the logs would show clues that lead to the source of the problem. If the problem can't be reproduced then it is, by definition, not crippling.
so a bug that would cause your weapon to overheat, not fire, or randomly fire without you pulling the trigger is in no way crippling tot he person using it? (or have your shots shoot right through what your shooting at....) |
|
|
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1540
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:36:00 -
[71] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:There is no such thing as a tool that reproduces a bug that the steps are not known for. True, but there is a tool that allows them to watch the code while it's running and when something randomly happens that isn't supposed to they can stop the program and analyze that portion of the code to see what's up. Of course the problem might not be with that portion of the code itself but it's a starting point and if they don't find the problem there they can look into other portions of code that ties into that portion. However it also extends beyond bugs into balance issues; take the current AV vs tank imbalance, how the fck did that slip by Q/A?
That tool is what I was talking about when I said "They help you once you've reproduced the problem and let you start to zero in on what is actually causing it". You can't step into the code where the bug is occurring if you can't make the bug happen. Without the steps to reproduce you're not going anywhere. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
808
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:38:00 -
[72] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:There is no such thing as a tool that reproduces a bug that the steps are not known for. True, but there is a tool that allows them to watch the code while it's running and when something randomly happens that isn't supposed to they can stop the program and analyze that portion of the code to see what's up. Of course the problem might not be with that portion of the code itself but it's a starting point and if they don't find the problem there they can look into other portions of code that ties into that portion. However it also extends beyond bugs into balance issues; take the current AV vs tank imbalance, how the fck did that slip by Q/A? That tool is what I was talking about when I said "They help you once you've reproduced the problem and let you start to zero in on what is actually causing it". You can't step into the code where the bug is occurring if you can't make the bug happen. Without the steps to reproduce you're not going anywhere.
i know what your talking about i do.
i placed a little to much emphasis ont hose tools.
but when your put into a situation where you dont have replication instructions those tools that you have that the clients do not HAVE to be helpful in some way, and you wouldnt retain much buisness if your responce to thsoe situations was telling the customer you cant do anything untill THEY figure out whats causing the problem.... |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1540
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:38:00 -
[73] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:If the bug was crippling then we'd be able to reproduce it, and the logs would show clues that lead to the source of the problem. If the problem can't be reproduced then it is, by definition, not crippling. so a bug that would cause your weapon to overheat, not fire, or randomly fire without you pulling the trigger is in no way crippling tot he person using it? (or have your shots shoot right through what your shooting at....)
It's annoying to you, but the game is still running and 99.9% of the other people playing at that moment are having no problems with their gun not firing. You're falling into the user reporting a bug trap of, "It happened to me therefore this is the most important thing ever".
Seriously, go work in software development for a while. It's absurd. Users will report bugs and if they're allowed to rate the severity every last bug will be critical or at the very least moderate, even if it is something that happened once to one user and didn't stop anything from finishing. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
808
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:42:00 -
[74] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:If the bug was crippling then we'd be able to reproduce it, and the logs would show clues that lead to the source of the problem. If the problem can't be reproduced then it is, by definition, not crippling. so a bug that would cause your weapon to overheat, not fire, or randomly fire without you pulling the trigger is in no way crippling tot he person using it? (or have your shots shoot right through what your shooting at....) It's annoying to you, but the game is still running and 99.9% of the other people playing at that moment are having no problems with their gun not firing. You're falling into the user reporting a bug trap of, "It happened to me therefore this is the most important thing ever". Seriously, go work in software development for a while. It's absurd. Users will report bugs and if they're allowed to rate the severity every last bug will be critical or at the very least moderate, even if it is something that happened once to one user and didn't stop anything from finishing.
you are correct i do have bias in that reguard. but i use it as an example becuase its the matter im most familiar with not because i believe its truly game crippling, its anoying yes, but you are correct it is not really all that high on the priorities list and if i were them it still wouldnt be very high on my list of things to fix.
that is an excellent point.
|
Thumb Green
Titans of Phoenix
Legacy Rising
675
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:42:00 -
[75] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:There is no such thing as a tool that reproduces a bug that the steps are not known for. True, but there is a tool that allows them to watch the code while it's running and when something randomly happens that isn't supposed to they can stop the program and analyze that portion of the code to see what's up. Of course the problem might not be with that portion of the code itself but it's a starting point and if they don't find the problem there they can look into other portions of code that ties into that portion. However it also extends beyond bugs into balance issues; take the current AV vs tank imbalance, how the fck did that slip by Q/A? That tool is what I was talking about when I said "They help you once you've reproduced the problem and let you start to zero in on what is actually causing it". You can't step into the code where the bug is occurring if you can't make the bug happen. Without the steps to reproduce you're not going anywhere.
Exactly but my point is that many of these bugs happen randomly with no way to reliably reproduce them at will. Thus the only way to find the problem is to watch the code when these bugs randomly happen. Most of them happen frequently enough if you play the game for more than an hour for Q/A to spot them but as a player I have no way of doing that.
CCP: Is it the most asinine way possible to do this? Yes. Then that's how we're doing it.
|
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1540
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:43:00 -
[76] - Quote
They're really not helpful at all until you can observe the problem happening. Quite often a "bug" isn't actually a bug, but a problem with the user's environment. I could start my debugger and run through the app all day long. If I did run into the bug then yeah, I've got what I need to get started. The problem is you're expecting the tools to also help you get through that reproduction step. It doesn't work and it can't work. If someone ever builds a tool that can do that for us then we've basically created skynet and are ready to let autonomous computers solve all the world's problems. |
Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
829
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:48:00 -
[77] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:If the bug was crippling then we'd be able to reproduce it, and the logs would show clues that lead to the source of the problem. If the problem can't be reproduced then it is, by definition, not crippling. so a bug that would cause your weapon to overheat, not fire, or randomly fire without you pulling the trigger is in no way crippling tot he person using it? (or have your shots shoot right through what your shooting at....) It's annoying to you, but the game is still running and 99.9% of the other people playing at that moment are having no problems with their gun not firing. You're falling into the user reporting a bug trap of, "It happened to me therefore this is the most important thing ever". Seriously, go work in software development for a while. It's absurd. Users will report bugs and if they're allowed to rate the severity every last bug will be critical or at the very least moderate, even if it is something that happened once to one user and didn't stop anything from finishing.
Software glitches and programming bugs? sure... Fatal errors? we take them kinda fine i think.
Collision mechanics? To the point where every mercenary after 2 years is still getting stuck on terrain... Hills? F* that could be glitched stuck there for a minute.. Jumping a railing? How about a slight level change step? Getting stuck on fellow mercenaries? walls? you name it?
Like really? was aim assist being broken and re done 3 separate times taking up massive amounts of CCP Wolfman's team time. For what? To kill speed tanking and veteran player counts?
Meanwhile Aiming and HD is still horrid, customization and UI... 1 improvement in 6 months...
Frame rates? Laugh......
Collisions mechanics? Laugh... Physics of LAV? laugh.....
These are all fundamental things on every game reviewers mouth... and they have been fundamental issues for 8 months to 2 years.
At some point the fact that someone is spewing bullshit to please people who don't know better becomes obvious.
|
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
809
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:49:00 -
[78] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:They're really not helpful at all until you can observe the problem happening. Quite often a "bug" isn't actually a bug, but a problem with the user's environment. I could start my debugger and run through the app all day long. If I did run into the bug then yeah, I've got what I need to get started. The problem is you're expecting the tools to also help you get through that reproduction step. It doesn't work and it can't work. If someone ever builds a tool that can do that for us then we've basically created skynet and are ready to let autonomous computers solve all the world's problems.
i overestimated the abilities of the tools available to the QA department then it seems.
but there is still the matter of QA basically ignoring anything they arnt handed replication instructions to (and some things they are handed instructions for)
but we are also in a situation where top corps are basically using these bugs as weapons and hording the secrets to their exsistance and replication for an advantage in game.
i have over-reacted a bit here i admit.
it is frusterating as a customer however when the only way i can even make headway on a bug is to do the QA myself and hand the problems with their solutions on a silver platter to the developer if i ever want them to even be awknowledged as bugs. |
Thumb Green
Titans of Phoenix
Legacy Rising
675
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:57:00 -
[79] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote: The problem is you're expecting the tools to also help you get through that reproduction step. .
No I'm not, because like I've said these bugs are happening randomly; there is no real reproduction step other than playing the game and waiting for these randomly occurring bugs to randomly occur. So what I expect them to play the game and when the bug randomly happens to stop the program and to look at whats happening in the code. Like I said they happen frequently enough during play that Q/A should be able to spot them.
And again like I said before, it goes beyond just bugs into balance issue like the current AV vs tank imbalance. Q/A should have caught that bs way before 1.7 was deployed.
CCP: Is it the most asinine way possible to do this? Yes. Then that's how we're doing it.
|
Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
829
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:59:00 -
[80] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote: The problem is you're expecting the tools to also help you get through that reproduction step. . No I'm not, because like I've said these bugs are happening randomly; there is no real reproduction step other than playing the game and waiting for these randomly occurring bugs to randomly occur. So what I expect them to play the game and when the bug randomly happens to stop the program and to look at whats happening in the code. Like I said they happen frequently enough during play that Q/A should be able to spot them. And again like I said before, it goes beyond just bugs into balance issue like the current AV vs tank imbalance. Q/A should have caught that bs way before 1.7 was deployed.
How about the militia Nitrous and its unreal statistics. Out of all items used in the 1.7 patch testing that should of been one used a bit...
And? lol words are empty when actions disproves them. |
|
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DeeJay One
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
191
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 17:53:00 -
[81] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:
isolating things isnt something a player can do for the most part on a live server with payer interfearance, its soething that is done in a controlled environment where you can carefully eliminate variables without other players wandering around muching up the tests or introducing more variables as your trying to narrow them down.
Problem is bugs in a controlled environment usually don't happen. You can write/do as many tests as you wish, but the users will always find something that is broken, exploitable etc.
Especially that some of these bugs happen only within certain conditions, like some of the players being in US others in AU, playing on a European server. Also asking for reproduction steps is pretty much the standard in software development and support as some users remember what they have done, which spares you a few days of trying to replicate the bug. |
ANON Cerberus
Tiny Toons
26
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 17:54:00 -
[82] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game. What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
Its ok Saberwing - We were Perma-Beta testers in EVE online too. Some of us are quite used to it :P
|
DeeJay One
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
191
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 18:04:00 -
[83] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:
No I'm not, because like I've said these bugs are happening randomly; there is no real reproduction step other than playing the game and waiting for these randomly occurring bugs to randomly occur.
Bugs have a tendency to disappear when run under debug tools, especially when you have to debug it outside a production environment (and devkits aren't a production environment). Sometimes debug tools also introduce other bugs (like the memory tracker in EVE used to finding memleaks, leaks memory https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3843089#post3843089 )
Frankly, QA and perofmance tuning is sometimes the hardest part of software development (that's why people tend to cheat on unit tests) |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1542
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 18:14:00 -
[84] - Quote
Nothing like a good ol' Heisenbug. One that only occurs when you're not looking for it. It is possible to fix bugs that can't be reliably reproduced, but it chews up a ton of development time. At that point it comes down to tradeoffs, do I fix several bugs that we know how to reproduce + add this other planned features, or do I fix this one annoying thing? This is why some bugs stick around for a long time, there was more value added by fixing other bugs first.
I've literally been told not to fix a long standing bug after spending a couple days looking into it and having a good idea where the problem was going to wind up being, because we had a date for when the next build was going to be released and the client preferred to have a handful of easily done (and boring, from a technical perspective) change requests than the fix for the one bug that had been annoying us for ages. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Renegade Alliance
1101
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 18:15:00 -
[85] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur
THATS the purpose of a Q/A department.... they are paid for it because they have the ability to dedecate more to finding those things out and the training to do so. THATS what makes them a Q/A department.... THATS the core of their job... its not ours. THEIR job is to find those precise conditions... thats the whole reason they exsist
a small-minded and foolish response. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
811
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 18:17:00 -
[86] - Quote
low genius wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:
What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur
THATS the purpose of a Q/A department.... they are paid for it because they have the ability to dedecate more to finding those things out and the training to do so. THATS what makes them a Q/A department.... THATS the core of their job... its not ours. THEIR job is to find those precise conditions... thats the whole reason they exsist a small-minded and foolish response.
then its your job aparently |
TheLastAlive105
ROGUE SPADES
3
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 18:27:00 -
[87] - Quote
If they really are working hard then how did we get 1.4 to happen lets not venture into the dark days again. It only lasted for a day but CCP should be ashamed of themselves that was terrible. What about the flaylock, the murder taxi, the revival glitch when uprising first came out. Everyone went ballistic on the forums when all of those happened well maybe not the revive glitch but the other two definitely yes. It took 2 months!!!!!!!!! to fix each of those evil things and does CCP even actually care when Flaylocks and murder taxis were a problem? Everyone had really good ideas when those were the big problems and we had to wait through each patch to get these things nerfed and balanced out so I agree with Ghost here even though I've seen him do naughty things COUGH COUGH invisibility glitch COUGH COUGH. |
CrotchGrab 360
The Men In The Mirror
1373
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 18:37:00 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game. What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
in light of that fact PLEASE consider the "gamer tester team" which has been proposed on the forums before.
Let a small amount of people you choose to test the game for you, they can replicate conditions and most of them
given the probabilities through playing every game mode on every map.
You know the gamers would play for more hours than what your team will be able to and more time = more data;
higher sample rate = more results!
The TTF (time-to-fix  ) would decrease, bugs would be found quickly, I've reported various bugs myself, mainly through
videos, when asked for further details (if i went down the proper route and filed a ticket) I just wasn't able to say but if you had real-time data you could determine those purely through having a test team.
Not that I'm trying to propose anything here..... |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
811
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 18:43:00 -
[89] - Quote
TheLastAlive105 wrote:If they really are working hard then how did we get 1.4 to happen lets not venture into the dark days again. It only lasted for a day but CCP should be ashamed of themselves that was terrible. What about the flaylock, the murder taxi, the revival glitch when uprising first came out. Everyone went ballistic on the forums when all of those happened well maybe not the revive glitch but the other two definitely yes. It took 2 months!!!!!!!!! to fix each of those evil things and does CCP even actually care when Flaylocks and murder taxis were a problem? Everyone had really good ideas when those were the big problems and we had to wait through each patch to get these things nerfed and balanced out so I agree with Ghost here even though I've seen him do naughty things COUGH COUGH invisibility glitch COUGH COUGH.
The invis glitch was a perfect example of the whole "if i want it fixed i have to do it myself"
it was a problem for nearly a month before anyone even admitted it was a glitch, and only after complete 100% replication instructions was it even awknowledged and it took another month to fix....
the mele glitch was around since 1.0 or 1.1 not sure which and it wasnt untill it was used in competition was it even givin the time of day... thats 4-5 months of people posting about it giving replication instructions only to have it fixed once it became so widly known that everyone was freaking out about it...
the massive rendering problems that took 6 months for a responce on that crippled vehicles causing the OP vehicles we know today.
now we have a sprint glitch that causes you tooo move slower then walking as a result of the fixes implemented for the mele glitch... how that got past QA ill never know since part of making a fix would involve testing that...
their game QA department just cant handle the workload, its not incompetance its that they simply dont have the resources. and as a result we the players end up having to do the majority of the legwork to compensate (admittedly it is the easy part) |
Kigurosaka Laaksonen
DUST University
Ivy League
119
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:44:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game. What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
I think what CCP Saberwing meant to say was
/thread |
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JF duBre
Wraith Shadow Guards
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
5
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Posted - 2014.01.15 19:05:00 -
[91] - Quote
Vanell Sin wrote:We dont care Just play the god damn game If you dont like it move to something else
All who loves the idea of this game and do not exactly try to be CCP devs darlings care!!!
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Karl Koekwaus
205
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Posted - 2014.01.15 19:09:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game. What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
Yet you've missed the bug crashing PS3s at the end screen after FW battles, throwing a Fatal Error?
Micheal Jackson died for my sins
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Mithridates VI
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
2833
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Posted - 2014.01.15 20:19:00 -
[93] - Quote
This is the worst thread on the forums.
Please refrain from utilizing such inflammatory sarcasm in the future. GÇö CCP Eterne
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Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4465
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Posted - 2014.01.15 20:52:00 -
[94] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Dont believe me? read through the bug report section. here all even provide an example https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1567011#post1567011see that? it means that CCP doesnt internally have the capabilities to test their own systems, or at the very least doesnt have the resources to dedicate to it. THIS is why the game is so buggy, THIS is why massive imbalance occurs. This means that the only way to really rectify this would be to create our own testing corp/group and end up doing the work they should already be doing but for free. This game doesnt have the resources to be anything but a beta and we are still in truth beta testers. So guys what do you all think of this, is it worth mustering up the resources to test things? is there a valid reason CCP cant manage to scrape together the resources to test their own things? Sorry, but not true. We have an internal QA team, and also run daily playtests on current builds of the game. What is more tricky to do is to replicate the precise conditions that causes specific issues to occur. Community feedback and videos demonstrating the particular circumstances around issues help us reproduce and fix them. In reference to the issue that you linked - we managed to isolate this issue and hotfixed a solution a couple of days back. :)
Good response to a stupid post.
You should be commended.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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