even still, would u compare the ga logi (another FOTM, but not for much longer) with a Minny scout? I dont know he's one for sure but that like comparing a WW2 plane to the F-22.

ur making our argument however, u support low TTK for new players but not for u? is killing them 1shoturdead skill based? all suits should have hp totals reasonably close to other suits of the same class. give adv and proto suits advantages in recharge rate, movement speed [make them lighter] repair rate and have them be more efficient [less cpu/pg cost] the same with weapons. would much rather see them also separated in a subtle manner that focuses on skill rather than 'my higher sp makes me god'

the lack of new players and retention of them is proof the hp gap was a terrible idea. as were the 3 minute bunnyhop sessions.

You've missed the point.

The point is that KDR is completely irrelevant here. Perhaps if I hadn't included the word 'genuinely' then the joke would have been more obvious.

Considering that suit base HP does not go up with level the HP totals are relatively close. I can get around 600 EHP on my Covenant C-1, about 700 on my M/1 assault, and about 800 EHP on Mk.0. So when you total it all up my proto suit that costs around 200K ISK can tank 7-8 AR rounds than my 15K suit. Granted the proto has a much better weapon etc...

But the fact remains that proto suits, guns, and equipment are not what are going to determine an engagement every time, they help sure, but they can be over come. People need to get away from the psycology of "that guy beat me because of proto" we all do it because the kill screen shows us what kills us and it is easier on our egos than "wow that guy killed me because he is better than me or because I played stupid"

BTW playing the game longer and having more XP gives you the advantage in every MMO that has that sort of RPG mechanic to it, but just because someone has an advantage does no mean they'll win. That's why in sports they don't just give the championship to the organization that has stacked the best athletes, they play the games.

I would have thought that guy explaining your joke for you would have been obvious enough.....

I'd be more interested in the Caldari Heavy recharge delay. For a heavy that will focus on shields, it will not get the advantage of the ridiculous repair tool healing rate. I'm thinking the only way for the Caldari heavy to be viable is either to have an extremely small shield delay or perhaps even no shield delay all together. Of course, I'd also need to know the recharge rate.

Can someone articulately explain why longer TTK is supposedly bad without trying to drag new players into the argument for leverage? Core gameplay and new player experience may be the most neglected things in Dust, but they're two completely different things and should be treated as such. Saying that the current TTK is better for new players is pretty ignorant when everything other than extenders plates (and arguably repair modules) are pretty much a waste of SP. That -10% recharge delay on a militia shield regulator is pretty useless and barely noticeable when you have max skill on a complex. Damage profiles don't matter when you can just stack damage mods on a ScR to deal with a Gallente suit like you had a combat or rail rifle. These are game balancing issues that indirectly affect NPE but shouldn't be brought up in the same sentence.

Having TTK too short - like it is now - is bad because of several factors:

1. It reduces suit variety because stacking tanking mods doesn't provide realistic benefits because even with them, you die faster than you can turn around when flanked or caught from behind.

2. It makes the game too heavily luck and/or twitch based rather than being tactical and skill-based as it has been in many previous builds.

3. It reduces the importance of teamwork because a single AR mag can take out half a team, and having 2 people shoot a target makes so little difference you may as well find your own fight somewhere else.

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On the other hand, long TTK like we used to have in DUST can also be bad for many reasons:

1. Part of the reason DUST's long TTK was a problem was - as acknowledged by the devs - a matter of poor hit detection. People weren't dying fast, but it wasn't because they were durable, it was because shots which SHOULD be hitting were passing through their victims or bouncing off their shields for no damage.

2. If TTK is too long, then mistakes aren't punished severely enough, because giving a player too much time to recover when flanked is just as bad as not giving them enough time to react. Getting the drop on an opponent - even if it's a matter of luck - should give you an edge.

3. Even with all the fancy sci-fi tech we're playing with to make ourselves invulnerable, the weapons are highly advanced too, and should be dealing significant damage even to our ultra-futuristic armour and shields. With TTK too long, it will feel like we're firing modern weapons at sci-fi soldiers, or peashooters at guys in kevlar armour. It's just not fun when you don't see any evidence that you're hurting the target.

4. The longer the TTK, the more likely it is that another player will turn the corner, see a nearly dead enemy, and shoot twice to steal your kill.

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I know you said not to address this point, but if there are significant differences in health levels as you progress from Militia to Prototype, longer TTK will mean that this difference is more pronounced. Shortening TTK is a way to reduce the impact of these advantages. Really, though, the best method of tiericide is to actually reduce the advantage instead of using short TTK to simulate a reduced advantage. As I said previously, tiericide is good. Using overly-short TTK as a form of tiericide is the wrong approach.

[quote=Garrett Blacknova]Add damage multipliers when you attack someone's flank and rear. Problem solved. Basing TTK on builds before 1.4-1.5 only clutters up the issue because broken game mechanics, in this case hit detection complicate things. Hit detection is (arguably) fixed so you need to reevaluate from the point it was fixed.

I'm not saying pre-1.4 TTK was good.

I'm saying it was higher than we have now but in a bad way (long TTK for wrong reasons is bad, remember?).

I'm also saying that the current TTK is too short and should be lengthened.

Current TTK is based on pre-hit detection fix stats, that's the problem. Weapons need to be re-evaluated and so far, that hasn't really happened. CCP have acknowledged that TTK isn't where they want it, and said they plan to work on that. I just hope they do it right.

Tiericide and making SP less of an advantage is good.

Making even everyone die so fast the only factor is who pulled the trigger first is bad.

Making it so EVERYONE - new or not - gets enough time to take hits and at least TRY to react is a good thing. At the moment, that isn't happening, and as long as they keep TTK too short, it never will be.

mmmmmm, more armor tears...........im both so its a win win