DUST Search - Why is everyone crying about the redline?

Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:

[qu

I take it you don't know that dropships can fly higher than a rail tank can shoot? Literally. If the dropship was directly above the tank at max height and the tank turret was pointing straight up, on most maps it's out of range. That is a massive area for dropships to travel in unhindered. How long does it take to get up there? About 3 seconds of just jamming in the boosters button.

If you're able to be hit by one of the snipers in those redline positions you are likely trying to redline the other team, which means you're winning... Or just Whining. You can always hit the people in those spots by just going around to the side a bit. I've killed so many of them like that I've lost count.

"The counter to x should never be x" eh? That can be said the same with all rapid-fire class VS single-shot classes of guns at close combat. In close combat the only practical counter for rapid-fire weaponry is rapid-fire weaponry. From a guns perspective that's about the same as single-shot weaponry needed to take out single-shot weaponry.
As soon as they let snipers have better close-combat performance from hipfire.... then you might have an argument that would permit such a change.

Also I see you don't actually read around because "only forges taking out forges" was not the reason they were nerfed. The reason was the high alpha damage and the wide splash damage. Basically it was like if they missed the shot, they got a free sniper round to hit the target instead.
It used to require far less accuracy to be far more lethal. so they changed the accuracy by reducing splash and a bit of range because CCP didn't want to mess with the rooftops. The weapon was designed for vehicle damage primarily, and because at that time they were being used with the sole intention of being anti-infantry across the entire board of use, they deemed it needed a change so that vehicles would no longer just be an afterthought.

In other words, it had nothing to do with "the only counter of x shouldn't be x". That is just an assumption you shoved in there.

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True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5573	Posted - 2014.01.12 08:39:00 - [31] - Quote abarkrishna wrote: Seriously I do not get it. Never bring up this subject again or do you not remember when I beat you to death with a Nanite injector? Cowards use the redline to hide and not lose ISK or resources.....in EVE there is no redline....you should not be safe in this game because the redline panders to casuals and scrubs. To a Texan like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Gunlogi. Reference = ISK
AAA Hellcab molon labe. Public Disorder. 77	Posted - 2014.01.12 08:46:00 - [32] - Quote We're crying that we can't fight you in the MCC when your shields drop, and forces splinter to either hold the null cannons or take over the control room. But it's coming... Sometime (TM).
KIRSTY j The Walking Targets 45	Posted - 2014.01.12 08:47:00 - [33] - Quote i have said this before. you can kill players in the redline, it's not that safe. would rather redline snipers than most of my team sitting in the MCC. nearly every game is 1 sided and you have no chance of ever getting out of there.
Blaze Ashra Ametat Security Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2014.01.12 09:19:00 - [34] - Quote KIRSTY j wrote: i have said this before. you can kill players in the redline, it's not that safe. would rather redline snipers than most of my team sitting in the MCC. nearly every game is 1 sided and you have no chance of ever getting out of there. You'll get better with practice. Don't spawn on an MCC, get a gallante light frame with profile dampeners and shield extenders and an uplink. Pull back and go around the red blob doing everything they can to kill you. Drop your uplink and move to take a CRU/Supply depot/objective and I guarantee you some people will spawn there and back you up. It's not rocket science.
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 535	Posted - 2014.01.12 09:24:00 - [35] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: [qu I take it you don't know that dropships can fly higher than a rail tank can shoot? Literally. If the dropship was directly above the tank at max height and the tank turret was pointing straight up, on most maps it's out of range. That is a massive area for dropships to travel in unhindered. How long does it take to get up there? About 3 seconds of just jamming in the boosters button. If you're able to be hit by one of the snipers in those redline positions you are likely trying to redline the other team, which means you're winning... Or just Whining. You can always hit the people in those spots by just going around to the side a bit. I've killed so many of them like that I've lost count. "The counter to x should never be x" eh? That can be said the same with all rapid-fire class VS single-shot classes of guns at close combat. In close combat the only practical counter for rapid-fire weaponry is rapid-fire weaponry. From a guns perspective that's about the same as single-shot weaponry needed to take out single-shot weaponry. As soon as they let snipers have better close-combat performance from hipfire.... then you might have an argument that would permit such a change. Also I see you don't actually read around because "only forges taking out forges" was not the reason they were nerfed. The reason was the high alpha damage and the wide splash damage. Basically it was like if they missed the shot, they got a free sniper round to hit the target instead. It used to require far less accuracy to be far more lethal. so they changed the accuracy by reducing splash and a bit of range because CCP didn't want to mess with the rooftops. The weapon was designed for vehicle damage primarily, and because at that time they were being used with the sole intention of being anti-infantry across the entire board of use, they deemed it needed a change so that vehicles would no longer just be an afterthought. In other words, it had nothing to do with "the only counter of x shouldn't be x". That is just an assumption you shoved in there. Ok. I take it that all the complaints about rail tanks that experienced dedicated dropship pilots have are completely unfounded... Your quip about the redline sniper and my team winning... Well. An assumption. Grab out a Thales [for example] , and you can be far back in the redline, so far that even a suicide mission is impossible to counter them. And they can shoot at least to the middle of the map, where the majority of any action should be happening. Hard to counter, unless you counter snipe. which many here on the forums have a problem with, me included. As for forges... well, being a dedicated forge gunner, I know of every single problem that people had with them. I engaged in the nerf threads and tried to talk sense into people. Besides the tower camping and damage, a major complaint was that the only counter people felt existed was another forge. All those complaints have been dealt with thus far. However, the above is extraneous and getting a bit off topic, and will get nowhere. Allow me to state the main point I was attempting to make: The redline grants protection. Some are able to use that protection in such a way as to severely minimize risk. That throws the risk/reward equation out of balance. If you wish to refute anything I say, refute that.
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 642	Posted - 2014.01.12 10:33:00 - [36] - Quote abarkrishna wrote: Railguns are pretty much the only counter to Assault dropships. Swarms are ******* useless. Forge guns are ok but leave the user very vulnerable. The reason I say terrible map design is that one side always has a huge advantage. Manus peak is a perfect example of that. So basically people just got bored of bitching about tanks and found something else instead. Bunch of whiny entitled brats. Nope forge guns are quite effective. Especially to a dropship that fits with side guns. I would say the forge gun dropship balance is very good right now. Swarms could probably use a little bit more damage but just a little, they shouldn't be as effective as a forge gun. Then there is the rail tank, which is overly effective at killing dropships. It only takes two shots, and since it can fire so fast dropships barley have time to react. Combine that with fits like triple DMG mod that wouldn't survive without being protected by the redline and you get redline complaints. To sum it up, I can't kill or fight the rail tank, but he can kill me in 1.2 seconds at an 8th of the cost and with no risk. Breaks the bank, the balance and the fun. This problem has existed since beta, but now tanks are running amuck and a milita sica can blow a dropship out of the sky faster than a 1.0 ishukone assault forge gun. Its not fun, which is why pilots are asking for action.
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 642	Posted - 2014.01.12 10:58:00 - [37] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: I take it you don't know that dropships can fly higher than a rail tank can shoot? Literally. If the dropship was directly above the tank at max height and the tank turret was pointing straight up, on most maps it's out of range. That is a massive area for dropships to travel in unhindered. How long does it take to get up there? About 3 seconds of just jamming in the boosters button. I use to think that too, until a rail tank that was so far back in the red I couldn't engage rolled onto a slight incline and shot me down at height ceiling on their red line. Bet you didn't know that most rail tanks just go far back enough into their red until they can hit the dropship, doesn't sound like you fly much.... It takes much longer than 3 seconds to get up there. Not that it really matters how high you go. Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: In other words, it had nothing to do with "the only counter of x shouldn't be x". That is just an assumption you shoved in there. Currently the only effective counter to a red line rail tank is another rail tank. I might, and I stress might, be able to get one sitting on the edge. I have to dive on him while me and my gunners open up and chase him into the red then burn out in 8 seconds before my dropship explodes. Still more time than it takes for me to be shot down. If he goes any farther back than the red I can't fight him. I'm seeing quite a few dropship pilots switch to tanks, and why shouldn't they? They cost an 8th of my dropship and don't even have to leave the redline to shoot down prototype vehicles?! Or slaughter infantry for 82,000, so what if I loose one? Still making a profit! Hell I think I might even take up milita tanking just to make some money after so many pythons lost to red line rail tanks. Its bad, very bad. Ask any pilot, they will tell you the same.
abarkrishna WarRavens 262	Posted - 2014.01.12 11:15:00 - [38] - Quote Railguns have always crippled dropships in 2 shots. How is this new? So instead of having the redline you would rather 9 people sit in the mcc and hide? Scrubs will always be scrubs. If they are just gunna sit and hide they will whether their is a redline or not. It should be obvious to you that if there is a redline railgunner being a ***** maybe don't fly around in an assault dropship. Will it kill you that much? I do agree that it is redliner railgunners are nearly impossible to counter is stupid. But to fix that is as simple as adding in some buildings to hide line of sight. Make it so that they can not see objectives from the redline. That is a much better idea than removing the redline. You wanna talk about breaking the bank. Try losing 20 suits a round and make only 100 000 isk. All removing the redline would do is make the already small playerbase even smaller. No you kill this blueberry hacking the CRU we are camping. I already killed the last 2. When will they learn!
KIRSTY j The Walking Targets 45	Posted - 2014.01.12 11:18:00 - [39] - Quote Blaze Ashra wrote: KIRSTY j wrote: i have said this before. you can kill players in the redline, it's not that safe. would rather redline snipers than most of my team sitting in the MCC. nearly every game is 1 sided and you have no chance of ever getting out of there. You'll get better with practice. Don't spawn on an MCC, get a gallante light frame with profile dampeners and shield extenders and an uplink. Pull back and go around the red blob doing everything they can to kill you. Drop your uplink and move to take a CRU/Supply depot/objective and I guarantee you some people will spawn there and back you up. It's not rocket science. what who says i don't. need players to get out of the MCC to spawn on them in the first place. most times i'm the only person fighting the battle.
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 643	Posted - 2014.01.12 11:45:00 - [40] - Quote abarkrishna wrote: Railguns have always crippled dropships in 2 shots. How is this new? So instead of having the redline you would rather 9 people sit in the mcc and hide? Scrubs will always be scrubs. If they are just gunna sit and hide they will whether their is a redline or not. It should be obvious to you that if there is a redline railgunner being a ***** maybe don't fly around in an assault dropship. Will it kill you that much? I do agree that it is stupid redline railgunners are nearly impossible to counter is stupid. But to fix that is as simple as adding in some buildings to hide line of sight. Make it so that they can not see objectives from the redline. That is a much better idea than removing the redline. You wanna talk about breaking the bank. Try losing 20 suits a round and make only 100 000 isk. All removing the redline would do is make the already small playerbase even smaller. Woah, I'm not saying remove the redline, personally I think the best fix would be to disable vehicles weapons in friendly redlines. Sure it has always been two shots, but now the rail tank fires faster than assault forge guns. There is no time to react and most redlines give rail tanks perfect via for their 600m range cannons. Yes not flying sucks quite a bit for me. I'm a dedicated dropship pilot. What your asking is if all the millions of skill points and months I've spent training and getting good becoming worthless because of a no skill milita tank that I can't even fight. Sh!t hurts bro.... Were those proto suits? Because anything short of that is better than what I've lost. Try loosing 707k isk per game trying to do your profession, which now requires you to fly into the redline. 100k is a typical payout for pilots, didn't you know? 120k is a good game, 200k if they don't have any av or rail tanks, those are once in a blue moon. Oh and the 113+ mil I spent learning how to fly dropships like an ace for all the good its do e me...

PADDEHATPIGEN BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 120	Posted - 2014.01.12 11:51:00 - [41] - Quote The only thing I hate is the rail tankers that abuse the redline, the only way we have a small chance to kill them is orbital/warbarge strikes and most of the times the can get away from that to. I don't have a problem with redline snipers or anything else on the redline for that matter, I just kill them.
Emerald Bellerophon Nenikekamen 81	Posted - 2014.01.12 12:19:00 - [42] - Quote abarkrishna wrote: Seriously I do not get it. Seriously you are a dumbass. Also, the fix should be simpler than your post: make one team's space behind their own redline without any line of sight on the rest of the map. I wish CCP would get their through their skulls, already, so I could stop posting it.
Leonid Tybalt Dark Knightz Corp. 135	Posted - 2014.01.12 12:35:00 - [43] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: The redline takes the risk/reward that is in the game, and then defecates on it. They're all in range of sniper rifles if they can shoot out.... Also... Highsec in EVE is a lowered risk environment but you still have chances of being killed, just like "GasP" the redline. So much for your "sh+¡tty" example kid. And your suggestion of dealing with unkillable redlining railtanks would be? The solution to spawn camping isn't a shifty redline mechanic, the correct solution is to create more spawn points for both teams, placed further apart making it impossible f+¦r a team of 16 players to cover them all. Also the redline doesen't prevent spawn camping in the slightest. I've lost count of all the matches where one team basically hugs the redline border, destroying every vehicle that the losing team tries to call in while it's still in mid air with the rdv and gang up onevery player who tries to break out from their spawn, effectively locking them to their starting spawn points until the match is over. So your posts in this thread are simply full of ****. The redline serves no purpose = undeniable fact
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 214	Posted - 2014.01.13 00:13:00 - [44] - Quote 1)it makes sniping a low-no risk to high reward game that is a detriment to the team the sniper is on. 2)it makes redline matches more painful for both sides. 3)it makes AFKing viable to the detriment of active players. I'm not for the strait removal of the red line I would rather see this https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=569299#post569299 as well as a removal of all isk and WP gains from anyone in the red line, you want to get paid fulfill your damn contract.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 214	Posted - 2014.01.13 00:31:00 - [45] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: The redline takes the risk/reward that is in the game, and then defecates on it. They're all in range of sniper rifles if they can shoot out.... Also... Highsec in EVE is a lowered risk environment but you still have chances of being killed, just like "GasP" the redline. So much for your "sh+¡tty" example kid. the issue is the balance of risk vs reward, in high-sec your return is poor for very low risk, as a redline sniper you can do as well as the people on the ground with little to no risk to you, add to that, that while yes you are arguably "helping", redline snipers provide a worse deterrent and defense then field snipers and often end up stealing kills instead of getting their own targets, because it is move effective for them then providing actual support taking out the reinforcements
Dericha A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 4	Posted - 2014.01.13 01:25:00 - [46] - Quote Redline sniping is annoying- no question. However, I notice the people who don't like the redline look like a lot of TP. In a match this weekend I was stuck in a skirmish and a particularly inept bunch of blewberries. TP has 3 tanks out and and LV, running through the redline, murder-taxing people in the redline hiding, and boxing out both spawn points. The Blewberries are shooting the tanks with small arms and getting run over (so, no kills are really being lost). I'm in a blueprint heavy suit with a militia forge trying to kill their tanks and dodge bullets from Cubs. The ONLY thing stopping me from being completely flanked is the redline. Otherwise, what, run into an organized group of competent players over and over again in the hope that the bluedots get good? That's asinine. Maybe, we need to put a max range on the snipers (people and tanks), so if they want to meaningfully engage, they need to be "in the game" as it were.
RED FARM GOOD OL' B0YS 54	Posted - 2014.01.13 02:41:00 - [47] - Quote abarkrishna wrote: Seriously I do not get it. Because they are little bitches. You cannot capture an objective from the redline or a tank. A good 1-2 sniping crew can hold certain objectives and squeak out some decent kills. I say move the redline back even further. There was an awesome mod for BF2 that had maps probably 3 times larger than dust maps. Redline was never an issue because you could literally go far far away from battle. I see no issues with rail tanks or snipers etc. 300 meters out. Public Chat: GOOD OL' B0YS Please note the word B0YS has a zero in it.
abarkrishna WarRavens 264	Posted - 2014.01.13 02:51:00 - [48] - Quote As I have stated before it is as easy to fix as putting some buildings around the redline hiding line of sight so that railsnipers and snipers can not see out of the redline. They can not shoot you if they can not see you. No you kill this blueberry hacking the CRU we are camping. I already killed the last 2. When will they learn!
abarkrishna WarRavens 264	Posted - 2014.01.13 02:54:00 - [49] - Quote Also I recently read about the new game mode they are introducing called conquest. It seems that the maps we are playing on are part of a much larger map that includes several outposts instead of the one that our maps are currently played on. With larger maps it is less likely that an entire team will get redlined removing the possibility of people abusing the redline. No you kill this blueberry hacking the CRU we are camping. I already killed the last 2. When will they learn!
Soldiersaint Deepspace Digital 676	Posted - 2014.01.13 03:12:00 - [50] - Quote abarkrishna wrote: Seriously I do not get it. because all of these idiots believe in a false word called skill. and if your behind the redline you have no skill there is no such thing as skill. shut up and play the game.

Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 463	Posted - 2014.01.13 08:49:00 - [51] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: Allow me to state the main point I was attempting to make: The redline grants protection. Some are able to use that protection in such a way as to severely minimize risk. That throws the risk/reward equation out of balance. If you wish to refute anything I say, refute that. If you're shooting from the redline your accuracy greatly suffers. That basically equates to lower reward. If you're also firing from the redline you're not covering objectives very well either. Also, there is no protection from counter-sniping in most of those spots, if not all of them. The worst spots to snipe from are all in the redline, why? Because snipers looking for easy kills (ridiculously easy kills I must stress) just turn their scopes toward the redline to pad their stats. Oh was that proto armor and sniper in the redline? Well it's dead now. Basically for another sniper, shooting from the redline is like an assault rifle user standing in the middle of a field and expecting all the other assault rifle users not to spot him. The first thing you do is sweep the obvious spots. :/ Dericha wrote: Maybe, we need to put a max range on the snipers (people and tanks), so if they want to meaningfully engage, they need to be "in the game" as it were. There is a max range already, for those too lazy to try sniping, you'll never know. Also, all maps we play on are basically 1/3 of the planned endgame maps. It used to be you could zoom out to check on the other nodes in the map, but not really anymore. The only map where the other nodes are really obvious is the one that is on a cliff face to the West, and a single tall tower in the middle with the large bridge traveling East. If you look down the hill you can see the other combat node. Eventually it's planned that people will be able to travel between at will during a match, but that's a while out. If you can read this, it means you are reading. Unless you are skimming


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