DUST Search - Red-line Railgun Tanks.

Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:

Tebu Gan wrote:

Ok, from my tankin perspective.....sniped out all the twaddle...

Long post, but you keep trying to call being inaccessible a 'skilled use of tactics' I call BS on this. This is not a real world battle so any comparison to one is a waste of time. A computer game is a similar to the civil war as a painting of the civil war is. This is a game with people on both sides of an engagement who should enjoy the game and play on a fair and balanced board.

You can hide the imbalance with words like "tactics" but no matter how many words you use to try to bury the unfairness of redline tanks no-one is falling for it. There is NO counter that is equal to the advantage the redline tank has. Any player wishing to fight a redline tank deep in the redline has to be on the battlefield and thus in range of other threats. The argument ends there. Two parties, one at risk from multiple avenues, one in the redline immune from any attack that does not come from a predictable direction. Even another tank has to get into the burn zone to shoot at you. Coward is the name for that play style. Not tactician.

So I want to see clearly and plainly how you really feel without the waffle. So here is the question :

Do you think it is fair that a player can be out of range of any other player that is not on the battlefield yet still kill players on the battlefield?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Foxhound Elite The Rainbow Effect 618	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:06:00 - [1] - Quote Let's please brainstorm together to get some ideas going on how to remove their ability to 'kill-and-not-be-killed' apart from an organised squadron of assault dropship pilots. Python pilot, troop-transport specialist and an all-round ballbag.
daishi mk03 BLACK-GUARD Die Fremdenlegion 547	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:07:00 - [2] - Quote Sweet tears. To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin. The Scriptures,Book of Missions
DrDoktor PiZzA DuDeS 47	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:09:00 - [3] - Quote Organized assault of 3 or more breach forge gunners?
Foxhound Elite The Rainbow Effect 618	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:09:00 - [4] - Quote daishi mk03 wrote: Sweet tears. Well, it should be addressed. How about; No Risk, No ISK: If you're camping in the redline, you get no ISK for any WP made while you're in there. Python pilot, troop-transport specialist and an all-round ballbag.
Foxhound Elite The Rainbow Effect 618	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:12:00 - [5] - Quote DrDoktor wrote: Organized assault of 3 or more breach forge gunners? I'm not going to veer my infantry away from winning the battle on the ground. If there's a railgun tank, I should be able to kill him, provided if he doesn't kill me first. If I don't get shot down while in my Python, I engage the tank, and if he isn't in the redline, he rolls back to it... but 90% of the time he's already there and rolls back deeper. Usually only ends in me having to retreat, while he just reps and goes back to popping off projectiles from utter safety. Python pilot, troop-transport specialist and an all-round ballbag.
Scottie MaCallan Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 51	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:13:00 - [6] - Quote other rail tanks, forge gun squads, ADS, there's ways. and as someone who does this sometimes, it has more to do with map design than being a coward, a lot of good perches are for some reason designed inside the redline. When maps get bigger I venture out of the redline because the better positions are out there (my definition of a good perch is a tall overwatch position that offers cover (usually in the form of ditches and jagged rocks) and is within range of the most probably enemy positions, a few maps have amazing perches located right inside the redline, srry)
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2152	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:14:00 - [7] - Quote Meh Intelligence is OP
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 178	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:17:00 - [8] - Quote As was identified in another thread, the maps are the issue. There should be no clear line of sight of the battlefield from the redline, IMO.
Jane Madson Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 284	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:17:00 - [9] - Quote Simple, add a timer to the redline, 3 mins tops. Thats enough time to deploy a lav ot hav. It would fix all problems with redline. Also fix the dang matchmaking, base it off warpoints. Warpoints are a better indication of experience. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu.(Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us)
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 3411	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:32:00 - [10] - Quote Jane Madson wrote: Simple, add a timer to the redline, 3 mins tops. Thats enough time to deploy a lav ot hav. It would fix all problems with redline. Also fix the dang matchmaking, base it off warpoints. Warpoints are a better indication of experience. The timer can be exploited by driving out and then in again. It would be too much of a disadvantage if it became normal redzone after you leave, because lately the only supply depots accessible to vehicles are the ones in the red line. We used to have a time machine

daishi mk03 BLACK-GUARD Die Fremdenlegion 547	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:38:00 - [11] - Quote Jane Madson wrote: Simple, add a timer to the redline, 3 mins tops. Thats enough time to deploy a lav ot hav. It would fix all problems with redline. Also fix the dang matchmaking, base it off warpoints. Warpoints are a better indication of experience. So, when I redline the enemy team they can either wait 3 mins inside their red and die or come out and die also. I don't have any words to insult people like you lol O.o To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin. The Scriptures,Book of Missions
Smooth Assassin Stardust Incorporation 668	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:40:00 - [12] - Quote Foxhound Elite wrote: daishi mk03 wrote: Sweet tears. Well, it should be addressed. How about; No Risk, No ISK: If you're camping in the redline, you get no ISK for any WP made while you're in there. I like that. *Assassination is my thing.*
Beld Errmon The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1206	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:43:00 - [13] - Quote The only way it can be addressed is by changing the maps in a way that doesn't provide spots for them to snipe from.
Big miku Nation of Miku 322	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:43:00 - [14] - Quote Set up super OP (CRU level HP and Advance level damage) blaster turrets around the Spawn zones increase their engagement range and AI tracking and firing protocol, strategically place some bunkers around them to prevent them from being railgun snipped, then remove the redline. For extra OP add Light armor reppers to the turrets. Now there are powerful turrets that will auto kill things that linger around the spawns but can be killed with a lot of effort. and you can drive within range of redline tanks and kill them but the turrents will kill you if you hang about. I fixed the issue.
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 111	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:46:00 - [15] - Quote get rid of the redline, its now just a railgun tank. best way to do that would be to just rip off section 8
thomas mak STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder. 3	Posted - 2014.01.06 15:47:00 - [16] - Quote Easy any rail with any 3 damage increase mod 2 hit die hard or call support from eve *Real tanker dies with their tanks!*
Nguruthos IX PEN 15 CLUB 2407	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:04:00 - [17] - Quote Who cares? Don't have to deal with this stuff if you just don't play Dust. What's their population numbers at now?
Serimos Haeraven The Exemplars Top Men. 567	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:11:00 - [18] - Quote Judge has already created a literally huge topic on this, with about 16 pages of suggestions of how to deal with this issue, it should be on this page since i recently bumped it, check it out.
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:14:00 - [19] - Quote Foxhound Elite wrote: Let's please brainstorm together to get some ideas going on how to remove their ability to 'kill-and-not-be-killed' apart from an organised squadron of assault dropship pilots. Ok, from my tankin perspective. Back when I started tanking around May, I'll admit, I was a fan of redline tanking. Though then, the incredibly high cost of tanks, weakness of my gunnlogi stacked with a maddie, and the SP barrier to be effective, made it the only profitable choice. But it's not just about that. During the Revolutionary War, American troops adopted the Native American approach to combat. Standing in rows with clear view between the opposing forces, and firing until the last man standing won - The British Approach Fair and equal between the opposing forces, they weren't sissys I'll give them that. Striking from the shadows, using terrain, camo, range ,ect to your advantage, in order to insure a high loss of men to the opposing side while maintaining a large force yourself. -The Native American Way Win by any means possible. It is a fight to win, an intelligent person in my book uses "cheap tactics" to gain an advantage over a superior force or any force for that matter. Brawn without brain is useless! The British took to calling the Americans cowards for their use of dishonorable tactics. Look at us now! So I do have some respect for redline sniping. Yes cheap and stupid, but very effective and hard to counter. That's the point of good tactics is it not. --Though if we wanted to reduce the occurrence of redline sniping I could suggest a few things.-- Map Changes Terrain in the redline makes a big difference in how effective redline tanking is. Some, are very open and exposed to rail fire, others offer superior elevation and slight hills in the terrain that allow you to pull back to cover very easily. There should be no tactically superior terrain in the redline. Either it's open and in clear view from outside the redline, or it is more enclosed, with no way to access a higher position. This would force a rail gun to gain a high spot OUTSIDE of the redline. He could still be a superior presence on the battlefield, but at least then he would be accessible to other tanks on the field. Railgun Changes Railguns have some massive range, this makes it very easy to effectively snipe from the redline. Reducing that range to 350-400, or put it on par with whatever forge gun range is. Railguns would still hold a range advantage over the other types of turrets, but would need to engage much closer. Damage modded rails can destroy other tanks easily, and from very far away. Reducing the ranges forces them in closer, and gives the other tanks a better fighting chance against them. The added bonus is it reduces redline rail sniping. (Railguns are a bit OP atm, all for this type of change) I think of it like this though when it comes to redline rail sniping. If you are in a game, and the enemy redlines you, and they have tanks out helping to keep you in. What would I do? I would sneak attack ambush from the shadows, and hide behind my redline, using it to my advantage to take on a superior force. No doubt they would call me a ***, while I'm stitting in the rubble of what used to be their tank. But sometimes, that's the only option available if you want to win. You know the blues aren't going to save you. Still the redlined need to be able to fight back, and they need something on their side that gives them an advantage if anything to get back out. Summed** Reducing railgun range would still let them fight back against those pushing the redline, and at the same time reduce the ability to hit anything beyond your home point, if that. Redline is there to give you a fighting chance, not an overall advantage over the entire map. Additionally, changing up the redline terrain to provide an advantage to the redlined to push out, but make it impossible to maintain map control from the redline. Hills closest to the redline shouldn't be climbed. Have a higher elevation further in, that provides clear view of the outside of the redline, coupled with a range nerf. This allows you to help push out from the redline fairly safely, but you are restricted to only having control over the area say 100km to 200km out from the redline. Beyond that, you must expose yourself to the potential of being ganked from behind! Nuff Said
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:17:00 - [20] - Quote Foxhound Elite wrote: daishi mk03 wrote: Sweet tears. Well, it should be addressed. How about; No Risk, No ISK: If you're camping in the redline, you get no ISK for any WP made while you're in there. I don't like that approach, it doesn't address being redlined in a game. It just means when you get stomped, not only do you lose a match, you get no rewards. Way harsh. Nuff Said

Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 488	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:20:00 - [21] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: As was identified in another thread, the maps are the issue. There should be no clear line of sight of the battlefield from the redline, IMO. Yes I think this is mostly a map design issue.
thomas mak STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder. 4	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:30:00 - [22] - Quote Railgun had already reduced range. Few patch ago rail have no range limitn+êeven redline rail sniper can hit each other and now half map only Why there are only so little redline sniper before?becausen+Ü Cost, 10000000 isk for a tank or it deal no damage Risk, there are very high risk that redline rail sniper can kill each other easilyn+êpre updaten+ë Prize, at before redline sniper can only get little wp because rail can't kill people and when there are no other tank you get no wp and if you go to kill people with blaster you get so much wp to get 5 most expensive dropship Map, map in before have no good location to rail tank snipe behind redline *Real tanker dies with their tanks!*
Serimos Haeraven The Exemplars Top Men. 567	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:32:00 - [23] - Quote Justicar Karnellia wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: As was identified in another thread, the maps are the issue. There should be no clear line of sight of the battlefield from the redline, IMO. Yes I think this is mostly a map design issue. But i don't think that would stop dropship 1-2 shotting from the redline at all. Sure, they couldn't see the main battlefield, but putting the redline "below the sea-level of the battleground" means that there would be a pretty drasticly angled slope from the redline onto the battlefield, and what does that mean? Redline railgun tanks could simply roll up on the slope and pelt DS pilots in the air easily, still..
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:34:00 - [24] - Quote Serimos Haeraven wrote: Justicar Karnellia wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: As was identified in another thread, the maps are the issue. There should be no clear line of sight of the battlefield from the redline, IMO. Yes I think this is mostly a map design issue. But i don't think that would stop dropship 1-2 shotting from the redline at all. Sure, they couldn't see the main battlefield, but putting the redline "below the sea-level of the battleground" means that there would be a pretty drasticly angled slope from the redline onto the battlefield, and what does that mean? Redline railgun tanks could simply roll up on the slope and pelt DS pilots in the air easily, still.. Nerf rail gun range! Nuff Said
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3083	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:35:00 - [25] - Quote Falloff Damage /thread Tanker > Logi > Scout > AV > Heavy > Assault > Sniper > Ninja > Forum Warrior. And more weapons than you can count!
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 760	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:37:00 - [26] - Quote A boost to swarm launcher range against tanks? Munch Dedicated Sniper. Minmatar Patriot (6).
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 362	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:37:00 - [27] - Quote Atiim wrote: Falloff Damage /thread Yeah that could help too. Nuff Said
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 760	Posted - 2014.01.06 16:39:00 - [28] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Jane Madson wrote: Simple, add a timer to the redline, 3 mins tops. Thats enough time to deploy a lav ot hav. It would fix all problems with redline. Also fix the dang matchmaking, base it off warpoints. Warpoints are a better indication of experience. The timer can be exploited by driving out and then in again. It would be too much of a disadvantage if it became normal redzone after you leave, because lately the only supply depots accessible to vehicles are the ones in the red line. Not if you implement a cooldown. Munch Dedicated Sniper. Minmatar Patriot (6).
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1156	Posted - 2014.01.06 17:01:00 - [29] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Ok, from my tankin perspective.....sniped out all the twaddle... Long post, but you keep trying to call being inaccessible a 'skilled use of tactics' I call BS on this. This is not a real world battle so any comparison to one is a waste of time. A computer game is as similar to the civil war as a painting of the civil war is. This is a game with people on both sides of an engagement who should enjoy the game and play on a fair and balanced board. You can hide the imbalance with words like "tactics" but no matter how many words you use to try to bury the unfairness of redline tanks no-one is falling for it. There is NO counter that is equal to the advantage the redline tank has. Any player wishing to fight a redline tank deep in the redline has to be on the battlefield and thus in range of other threats. The argument ends there. Two parties, one at risk from multiple avenues, one in the redline immune from any attack that does not come from a predictable direction. Even another tank has to get into the burn zone to shoot at you. Coward is the name for that play style. Not tactician. So I want to see clearly and plainly how you really feel without the waffle. So here is the question : Do you think it is fair that a player can be out of direct weapon fire range of any other player that is not on the battlefield yet still direct fire kill players on the battlefield? Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 363	Posted - 2014.01.06 17:15:00 - [30] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Ok, from my tankin perspective.....sniped out all the twaddle... Long post, but you keep trying to call being inaccessible a 'skilled use of tactics' I call BS on this. This is not a real world battle so any comparison to one is a waste of time. A computer game is a similar to the civil war as a painting of the civil war is. This is a game with people on both sides of an engagement who should enjoy the game and play on a fair and balanced board. You can hide the imbalance with words like "tactics" but no matter how many words you use to try to bury the unfairness of redline tanks no-one is falling for it. There is NO counter that is equal to the advantage the redline tank has. Any player wishing to fight a redline tank deep in the redline has to be on the battlefield and thus in range of other threats. The argument ends there. Two parties, one at risk from multiple avenues, one in the redline immune from any attack that does not come from a predictable direction. Even another tank has to get into the burn zone to shoot at you. Coward is the name for that play style. Not tactician. So I want to see clearly and plainly how you really feel without the waffle. So here is the question : Do you think it is fair that a player can be out of range of any other player that is not on the battlefield yet still kill players on the battlefield? Did you read all of my post, or stop when you read the part about cheap tactics being tactics none the less. You can wallow all you like over how cowardly a tactic is. In the end, it is the victor who writes history. But you clearly missed my point by a long shot. NO, I hate redline rails with a passion. Just last night I sacrificed my tank in PC to kill one such redline tanker. You are right, this is a video game, and should be balanced out. But I'm not going to bash on somebody for using a tactic that provides hardly any counter, and remains very effective. Fighting isn't about who's ** is bigger than the others, there is no honor in killing no matter how it is done. Respect. Nuff Said. If you even noticed, I posted my suggestions. THE KEY HERE IS THE REDLINE SHOULD SERVE A PURPOSE!** That purpose is to provide a redlined team a fighting chance. Currently though, a rail tank can use that to their advantage, in order to control the map. READ MY POST, and suggestions as a whole, not a PIECE. N quit being an asshat. Nuff Said



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