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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
362
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Posted - 2014.01.06 16:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Foxhound Elite wrote:Let's please brainstorm together to get some ideas going on how to remove their ability to 'kill-and-not-be-killed' apart from an organised squadron of assault dropship pilots.
Ok, from my tankin perspective.
Back when I started tanking around May, I'll admit, I was a fan of redline tanking. Though then, the incredibly high cost of tanks, weakness of my gunnlogi stacked with a maddie, and the SP barrier to be effective, made it the only profitable choice.
But it's not just about that. During the Revolutionary War, American troops adopted the Native American approach to combat.
Standing in rows with clear view between the opposing forces, and firing until the last man standing won - The British Approach
Fair and equal between the opposing forces, they weren't sissys I'll give them that.
Striking from the shadows, using terrain, camo, range ,ect to your advantage, in order to insure a high loss of men to the opposing side while maintaining a large force yourself. -The Native American Way
Win by any means possible. It is a fight to win, an intelligent person in my book uses "cheap tactics" to gain an advantage over a superior force or any force for that matter. Brawn without brain is useless!
The British took to calling the Americans cowards for their use of dishonorable tactics. Look at us now!
So I do have some respect for redline sniping. Yes cheap and stupid, but very effective and hard to counter. That's the point of good tactics is it not.
--Though if we wanted to reduce the occurrence of redline sniping I could suggest a few things.--
Map Changes
Terrain in the redline makes a big difference in how effective redline tanking is. Some, are very open and exposed to rail fire, others offer superior elevation and slight hills in the terrain that allow you to pull back to cover very easily.
There should be no tactically superior terrain in the redline. Either it's open and in clear view from outside the redline, or it is more enclosed, with no way to access a higher position. This would force a rail gun to gain a high spot OUTSIDE of the redline. He could still be a superior presence on the battlefield, but at least then he would be accessible to other tanks on the field.
Railgun Changes
Railguns have some massive range, this makes it very easy to effectively snipe from the redline. Reducing that range to 350-400, or put it on par with whatever forge gun range is. Railguns would still hold a range advantage over the other types of turrets, but would need to engage much closer.
Damage modded rails can destroy other tanks easily, and from very far away. Reducing the ranges forces them in closer, and gives the other tanks a better fighting chance against them. The added bonus is it reduces redline rail sniping. (Railguns are a bit OP atm, all for this type of change)
I think of it like this though when it comes to redline rail sniping. If you are in a game, and the enemy redlines you, and they have tanks out helping to keep you in. What would I do? I would sneak attack ambush from the shadows, and hide behind my redline, using it to my advantage to take on a superior force. No doubt they would call me a *****, while I'm stitting in the rubble of what used to be their tank.
But sometimes, that's the only option available if you want to win. You know the blues aren't going to save you. Still the redlined need to be able to fight back, and they need something on their side that gives them an advantage if anything to get back out.
Summed
Reducing railgun range would still let them fight back against those pushing the redline, and at the same time reduce the ability to hit anything beyond your home point, if that. Redline is there to give you a fighting chance, not an overall advantage over the entire map.
Additionally, changing up the redline terrain to provide an advantage to the redlined to push out, but make it impossible to maintain map control from the redline. Hills closest to the redline shouldn't be climbed. Have a higher elevation further in, that provides clear view of the outside of the redline, coupled with a range nerf.
This allows you to help push out from the redline fairly safely, but you are restricted to only having control over the area say 100km to 200km out from the redline. Beyond that, you must expose yourself to the potential of being ganked from behind!
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
362
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 16:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Foxhound Elite wrote:daishi mk03 wrote:Sweet tears. Well, it should be addressed. How about; No Risk, No ISK: If you're camping in the redline, you get no ISK for any WP made while you're in there.
I don't like that approach, it doesn't address being redlined in a game. It just means when you get stomped, not only do you lose a match, you get no rewards. Way harsh.
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
362
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 16:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Serimos Haeraven wrote:Justicar Karnellia wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:As was identified in another thread, the maps are the issue. There should be no clear line of sight of the battlefield from the redline, IMO. Yes I think this is mostly a map design issue. But i don't think that would stop dropship 1-2 shotting from the redline at all. Sure, they couldn't see the main battlefield, but putting the redline "below the sea-level of the battleground" means that there would be a pretty drasticly angled slope from the redline onto the battlefield, and what does that mean? Redline railgun tanks could simply roll up on the slope and pelt DS pilots in the air easily, still..
Nerf rail gun range!
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
362
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 16:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Falloff Damage
/thread
Yeah that could help too.
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
363
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 17:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Ok, from my tankin perspective.....sniped out all the twaddle...
Long post, but you keep trying to call being inaccessible a 'skilled use of tactics' I call BS on this. This is not a real world battle so any comparison to one is a waste of time. A computer game is a similar to the civil war as a painting of the civil war is. This is a game with people on both sides of an engagement who should enjoy the game and play on a fair and balanced board. You can hide the imbalance with words like "tactics" but no matter how many words you use to try to bury the unfairness of redline tanks no-one is falling for it. There is NO counter that is equal to the advantage the redline tank has. Any player wishing to fight a redline tank deep in the redline has to be on the battlefield and thus in range of other threats. The argument ends there. Two parties, one at risk from multiple avenues, one in the redline immune from any attack that does not come from a predictable direction. Even another tank has to get into the burn zone to shoot at you. Coward is the name for that play style. Not tactician. So I want to see clearly and plainly how you really feel without the waffle. So here is the question : Do you think it is fair that a player can be out of range of any other player that is not on the battlefield yet still kill players on the battlefield?
Did you read all of my post, or stop when you read the part about cheap tactics being tactics none the less. You can wallow all you like over how cowardly a tactic is. In the end, it is the victor who writes history.
But you clearly missed my point by a long shot.
NO, I hate redline rails with a passion. Just last night I sacrificed my tank in PC to kill one such redline tanker. You are right, this is a video game, and should be balanced out. But I'm not going to bash on somebody for using a tactic that provides hardly any counter, and remains very effective. Fighting isn't about who's **** is bigger than the others, there is no honor in killing no matter how it is done. Respect. Nuff Said.
If you even noticed, I posted my suggestions.
THE KEY HERE IS THE REDLINE SHOULD SERVE A PURPOSE!
That purpose is to provide a redlined team a fighting chance. Currently though, a rail tank can use that to their advantage, in order to control the map.
READ MY POST, and suggestions as a whole, not a PIECE.
N quit being an asshat.
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
363
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 17:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Foxhound Elite wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Ok, from my tankin perspective.....sniped out all the twaddle...
Long post, but you keep trying to call being inaccessible a 'skilled use of tactics' I call BS on this. This is not a real world battle so any comparison to one is a waste of time. A computer game is a similar to the civil war as a painting of the civil war is. This is a game with people on both sides of an engagement who should enjoy the game and play on a fair and balanced board. You can hide the imbalance with words like "tactics" but no matter how many words you use to try to bury the unfairness of redline tanks no-one is falling for it. There is NO counter that is equal to the advantage the redline tank has. Any player wishing to fight a redline tank deep in the redline has to be on the battlefield and thus in range of other threats. The argument ends there. Two parties, one at risk from multiple avenues, one in the redline immune from any attack that does not come from a predictable direction. Even another tank has to get into the burn zone to shoot at you. Coward is the name for that play style. Not tactician. So I want to see clearly and plainly how you really feel without the waffle. So here is the question : Do you think it is fair that a player can be out of range of any other player that is not on the battlefield yet still kill players on the battlefield? Did you read all of my post, or stop when you read the part about cheap tactics being tactics none the less. You can wallow all you like over how cowardly a tactic is. In the end, it is the victor who writes history. But you clearly missed my point by a long shot. NO, I hate redline rails with a passion. Just last night I sacrificed my tank in PC to kill one such redline tanker. You are right, this is a video game, and should be balanced out. But I'm not going to bash on somebody for using a tactic that provides hardly any counter, and remains very effective. Fighting isn't about who's **** is bigger than the others, there is no honor in killing no matter how it is done. Respect. Nuff Said. CCP has allowed this mechanic for a long time now, how about you focus that rage their way. If you even noticed, I posted my suggestions.THE KEY HERE IS THE REDLINE SHOULD SERVE A PURPOSE!That purpose is to provide a redlined team a fighting chance. Currently though, a rail tank can use that to their advantage, in order to control the map. READ MY POST, and suggestions as a whole, not a PIECE. N quit being an asshat. The redline does serve a purpose. The purpose of the red-line is to provide the team with a safe zone to rally in and assault the objectives, be it at the start or during a battle. If a team gets red-lined and is getting pinned in there, it's up to that team to rally via squads and make a push, either flanking or attacking the assailing team head-on. We all know 95% of the time, this never happens due to random team composition / poor squads / poor communication, which inevitably lead the team to getting red-lined in the first place. But the means are there, it's just we don't see people use them very often. Tankers use this safe-zone to their advantage however, and are pretty much un-killable due to the safety net it provides. It is a terrain issue, it is a timer-issue and it's being abused to the point where it makes the game virtually unplayable for vehicle users, primarily dropships who can only use mobility to their advantage. Like you said, they control the map. They shouldn't have that dominating power, and I'm sorry but I can't 'respect' that use of so-called 'tactics' , no matter how 'effective' it is. It's just giving the most powerful weapon in the game a safety-net which it can fall back on, should it encounter anyone trying to stop it. ..... And it needs to be stopped, by any means.
Nope totally agree, it needs to be fixed. Did I somehow indicate that I thought it was fine in the first place??
Everyone hates on FOTM abusers, but when you play to win, you "PLAY TO WIN". No I don't agree with it, but I also can't disagree with someone finding an advantage and then using it in their favor to make the win.
CCP is responsible for these kinds of things, NOT THE PLAYERS.
If you look at it another way as well, a team redlining another team, can deny any vehicle support, with hardly a chance for the redlined to fight back.
This happens a lot when my corp redlines a team. Map dependent of course.
Terrain I think is the biggest issues.
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
364
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 18:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Read it. All of it. Still looking for some short answer to the real question. You still call it a tactic in your last post. Its an abuse not a tactic. Also the "no honour in killing" waffle is again a distraction. There is no killing in this game. No one dies. Its about two players competing, or a group of players competing. When people compete fairness is considerd as key to both parties enjoyment. So I ask you again. Is it fair? That is all I asked. If a rail tank kills your proto suit from 200m in his redline while you are at your own closest objective would you feel this was fair? You say you hate it but......blah blah blah. Is it fair? And if it ISa fair and valid tactic then should we need to discuss making it available to everyone in the game. In that case we need to allow all players sections of the map where their enemies cannot go so they too can use this skilled and fair tactic. Tebu Gan wrote:Nope totally agree, it needs to be fixed. Did I somehow indicate that I thought it was fine in the first place??
yes you did actually Tebu Gan wrote:So I do have some respect for redline sniping. Yes cheap and stupid, but very effective and hard to counter. That's the point of good tactics is it not.
Yes, the option is available, why wouldn't you use it if you needed to. That's the point.
But the point you are missing is that I don't agree that it is right in terms of balance yes. Most all of my tanks are double hardened, plus a booster. Yes EVEN my rail. I don't redline rail snipe. And I hate redline snipers. They are the reason I have to run double hardeners and a booster in the first place!!
But what I'm trying to say here, yes I respect the tactic. There is hardly anything I can do to counter it and I certainly can't chase them down. Calling all redline rail snipers cowardly, is foolish. They are playing well within the boundaries of the game allowed by CCP.
Yes unfair, and it always has been. This has been a hot issue since I started playing. But I'm not going so far as calling it cowardly, as it WORKS.
But all of this, as it would seem, is a matter of opinion. Can we stop this back and forth?
If there is one thing we can agree upon, it is something needs to be done about redline railers, or even redline snipers for that matter. If I had thought it was ok I would have never suggested anything in the first place and left it with the top portion.
Terrain is not something that can be readily changed(at least I don't think) but a simple range nerf would help reduce the ability to redline rail. Given the strength of hardeners, being forced to engage a little closer with your rail isn't such a bad thing.
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
365
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 18:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Everything Dies wrote:Foxhound Elite wrote:Let's please brainstorm together to get some ideas going on how to remove their ability to 'kill-and-not-be-killed' apart from an organised squadron of assault dropship pilots.
Umm...if you can get hit by a rail tank, you can hit the rail tank back. A shot or two is usually enough to make the red liner think twice about their location; otherwise, pair up two rail tanks and take him out.
Very hard to hit a redliner that sits at a higher elevation relative to you. Thing is, all they got to do is backup, recharge, and engage again. So it effectively renders at least one tank immobile, watching for the redliner. Imagine though, if a redline tank ran duel hardeners, or triple hardeners. They could easily tank your damage and force you back or outright kill ya.
Not to mention, the fact that the redline keeps any other tanks from getting near to him.
Add another redline railer to the mix, and you get trouble.
Nuff Said
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