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Should vehicles be in ambush?

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Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1408	Posted - 2014.01.02 05:31:00 - [1] - Quote Seriously people. Has anyone considered that perhaps vehicles should only be allowed in FW,skirm,dom, and PC's? Many of you will likely click on this thread and downplay it before they even read the damn thing so this goes out to the few of you who actually like reading about new ideas. Please leave your constructive criticism down below. If you've read this far I labled each section so you can skip to the solution/explanation towards the bottom if you would like. Explanation/Rant Tanks.... Tanks is whats creating this thread. It would be a lie to say its just tanks, but tanks are the biggest problem out of the three vehicles currently in Dust 514. So heres the jist of things in Dust right now. You load up an ambush. A 16 v 16 man ambush. One team WILL call in a tank. Most of the times the response to that is someone else bringing in a tank. Then more people bring in tanks. Before you know it theres between 4 and 8 tanks on the field and a dropship because theres always one of those assault DS pilots flying around in one of those killing machines. What does this mean to the average infantry man? We get absolutely suffocated. Use AV? Ive had a full squad use AV before and it didn't work. Why? Because the enemy had a whole squad of tanks on their side. Use a tank? Im sorry but if tanks only showed up once or twice every other match then I would happily load up my Sica Railgun fit. But they show up EVERY SINGLE MATCH, and there almost always in numbers exceeding three. Have any of you ever played against Nyain San in ambush? Let me guess what they used. TANKS. Infantry don't have any room to breath in ambush because no matter who they're playing they have to use AV at some point and while they use AV they have to get pumbled into small confined buildings because the AV isn't good enough to effectively put down a group of Four enemy tanks. Dropships are no exception to this either. Assault dropships, although less used, are just as hard to kill if not even more hard to kill then tanks. In fact, the only reliable way I've found to taking down a dropship to date is to load up a sica and hope to god I can hit him four times in a row to take him down. (which is hard considering hardners/afterburners/...... FLYING. 90% of the time if a DS dies its because the pilot was either A.) incompetent in either skill or skill points, OR B.) because they got unlucky when I pegged them and clipped a wall. This amazing survivability they have now, coupled with the flexibility of being an aircraft vehicle and having the capability of running a missile launcher that can TWO SHOT an 800 HP proto suit makes DS just as suffocating to infantry as tanks. The only difference is that once you get enough swarm launchers out the DS has to keep his distance. Tanks don't care regardless though cuz swarms cant faze them anyway. Hell even LAV's have made something of a comeback. Blaster turrets are ridiculous now! and its not unusual to find a couple guys LAVing around just derping people with a gun that has the same stats as a balac assault rifle. Solution God this turned into a rant. But basically heres my solution. Take vehicles out of ambush. And make the map no bigger then a single complex. Maybe keep the usual road complex's have looping around just outside to allow for organized mercs to flank and/or get some breathing space if they need to. Increase the player cap in ambush to 18 V 18 (or if possible 24 v 24 like what was promised half a year ago). Which I would imagine would be possible if you consider that the map size would have been cut into a fraction of what it was, and the game wouldn't have to worry about processing vehicle physics. Solution Explanation Currently ambush takes place on maps the same size used in MAG. Keep in mind...... MAG allowed vehicles too but to compensate for the vehicles and map size, MAG also had, oh I don't know..... 256 players to actually fill all of this space..... Like I said above Dust only has 32 people in each match..... 32 plp + up to 10 vehicles + massive map =/= 256 plp + up to 10 vehicles + massive map. The math just doesn't add up. Conclusion Mag Was very fun because there was a LOT of intense action all of the time. If you saw a vehicle you could normally avoid it, unless it was blocking the only way towards an objective. In which case you would just pull out your rocket launchers and kill it because in that game AV actually worked. Dust is either Infuriating, or boring. Sometimes its fun and when it is its glorious! But most times its either infuriating or boring. Its infuriating when I get bent over by a squad or two of tank spammers match after match, and its boring when I get onto the tank spammers team over and over again and play "Hide and Seek 514" with me having to be proficient at both hiding and seeking in order to get any sort of a decent score by the end of it all. Even when there isn't tanks (which is rare these days) the game just switches name cards to "Marathon 514" because a marathon is the distance you'll have to run to actually find someone 50% of the time. But anyway. What do you guys think? Do you agree that vehicles should be removed from ambush? (keep in mind I say vehicles in totality because without tanks the games "vehicle balance" would be broken, meaning all of them should be removed). Or do you disagree because your one of the tank spammers? I'm a close beta veteran going back as far as June of 2012 in this game. I have 32 Million SP and over a hundred million isk in my wallet. I have over 3 million WP and a K/d of 4.7. In my opinion vehicle spam in ambush is killing the experience for anyone who, I don't know, doesn't want to drive a vehicle. To fix this I think vehicles should be removed from ambush. Clean and simple. What do you think? Marston VC, STB Director
Lorhak Gannarsein 1087	Posted - 2014.01.02 05:49:00 - [2] - Quote From a tanker... Yes. It kills me to say it, but yes. PRO tanker and proud. Lentarr Legionary.
Spectre-M The Generals General Tso's Alliance 169	Posted - 2014.01.02 05:52:00 - [3] - Quote I don't see any MCCs. How's the RDV getting there? Amarr Factional Warfare Loyalist Minnmatar in Amarr Armor I am a Wolf in Sheeps Clothing
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1124	Posted - 2014.01.02 06:10:00 - [4] - Quote Under normal circumstances I would disagree, but with the current state of tanks and Av, I support this. "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 776	Posted - 2014.01.02 06:39:00 - [5] - Quote yes, they should be. long overdue. Also, Ambush should not deploy pre-formed squads - at at least there should be an option to jump in an ambush with other randoms. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 141	Posted - 2014.01.02 06:50:00 - [6] - Quote I for one have been wishing for matches that allow NO vehicles at all as a separate contract since the squad cup (maybe even just pub matches exactly like the squad cup. Unfortunately we dont have the player base to support more game modes :(
JL3Eleven 1476	Posted - 2014.01.02 06:52:00 - [7] - Quote tl:dr I said this a year ago when your corp did it nonstop in pubs. Guess you know how it feels? iLB6 FUB9 Buying all officer weapons for 500k regardless of type.
CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES 530	Posted - 2014.01.02 06:53:00 - [8] - Quote I would certainly support a infantry only gamemode. Give people the options. How can it hurt? Don't take anything away, just add an infantry only ambush mode or something like that.
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 141	Posted - 2014.01.02 07:02:00 - [9] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: I would certainly support a infantry only gamemode. Give people the options. How can it hurt? Don't take anything away, just add an infantry only ambush mode or something like that. Player count is low enough that they can not make matchmaking work with the current modes. Add in a new mode at these current levels and we only increase the match making problems. CCP is building every thing for more and more players while doing nothing to increase new player retention (still a 1200 cap to leave the academy and get destroyed for example). They have proven time and time again that they will continue to do things bass akwards, leaving us left to dream of what the game could be and watch friends / enemies come and go.
Scout Registry 233	Posted - 2014.01.02 07:16:00 - [10] - Quote Ambush could be cured by limiting HAVs to 1-2 per side.

The Black Art Fatal Absolution 275	Posted - 2014.01.02 07:29:00 - [11] - Quote An STB member tired of tank spam? The irony.
Sirys Lyons Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.01.02 07:31:00 - [12] - Quote Frankly, no. Vehicles should be allowed in Ambush. But vehicles shouldn't be the ultimate anti-personnel weapon, either. You should be able to call in a tank - but you should be taking a serious risk by doing so, not pressing the "Win" button.
Lorhak Gannarsein 1090	Posted - 2014.01.02 07:41:00 - [13] - Quote Sirys Lyons wrote: Frankly, no. Vehicles should be allowed in Ambush. But vehicles shouldn't be the ultimate anti-personnel weapon, either. You should be able to call in a tank - but you should be taking a serious risk by doing so, not pressing the "Win" button. It's always been this way, though - if you disagree, I will just point you to duna. Him and his tank spamming buddies made EU Amb basically unplayable. Even with the overpowering nature of AV. I'd start taking shots at one of them, and then suddenly my infantry screen evaporates and I get ARed. Or Ion Cannon'ed. Or whatever. PRO tanker and proud. Number of PRO-turret HAVs killed w/ my permahardened MLT Blaster Gunny - 1 (so far xD)
m twiggz Pradox One Proficiency V. 220	Posted - 2014.01.02 07:43:00 - [14] - Quote Scout Registry wrote: Ambush could be cured by limiting HAVs to 1-2 per side. I agree with this. Removing them completely would be silly. Six tanks per team when there's only 16 mercs per side is a bit extreme. Especially in a game made based solely on killing.
Sirys Lyons Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2014.01.02 07:50:00 - [15] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Sirys Lyons wrote: Frankly, no. Vehicles should be allowed in Ambush. But vehicles shouldn't be the ultimate anti-personnel weapon, either. You should be able to call in a tank - but you should be taking a serious risk by doing so, not pressing the "Win" button. It's always been this way, though - if you disagree, I will just point you to duna. Him and his tank spamming buddies made EU Amb basically unplayable. Even with the overpowering nature of AV. I'd start taking shots at one of them, and then suddenly my infantry screen evaporates and I get ARed. Or Ion Cannon'ed. Or whatever. I know. And I've been dedicated tanker/AV since the early bit of the second round of closed beta. The point still stands though - rather than removing tanks because they kill Infantry too easily, thereby ruining the game, they need to change the system and create a viable reason for tanks to exist other than...well, just wiping the floor with absolutely everything with a single large turret and a hardener or two. It's broken. Especially in ambush where the likelihood of good cooperative AV approaches 0%. And it might actually be less than that in pubs.
Scout Registry 234	Posted - 2014.01.02 07:54:00 - [16] - Quote m twiggz wrote: Scout Registry wrote: Ambush could be cured by limiting HAVs to 1-2 per side. I agree with this. Removing them completely would be silly. Six tanks per team when there's only 16 mercs per side is a bit extreme. Especially in a game made based solely on killing. Agreed. Another factor to consider is the lack of redline. Pretty tough to call in a friendly tank, if its pounded to pulp prior to RDV release.
Flint Beastgood III GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 423	Posted - 2014.01.02 11:04:00 - [17] - Quote Yes, vehicles should be removed from Ambush game modes. No vehicles in Ambush please CCP. Gÿó +¦ +¦ Gÿó Trained Skills
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 336	Posted - 2014.01.02 11:07:00 - [18] - Quote I appreciate what you're trying to do, and you do explain quite clearly the zero-sum game that is caused by the tank/infantry AV imbalance (tanks kill other tanks better than infantry AV, so take out a tank)... and even though I would like to see ambush without vehicles, I think it wouldn't address the underlying problem of tanks in general, so wouldn't provide a complete solution to the problem. Having said that - if they DID do it, then I imagine ambush would suddenly become very popular as people could use it as a haven from the tank spam that occurs in other game modes.
PEW JACKSON s i n g u l a r i t y 159	Posted - 2014.01.02 11:27:00 - [19] - Quote Uber long OP Make a separate game mode for vehicles only. 1 tank 1 try. If you die, that's if for the match. Ambush without tanks would be sort of fun when not getting proto stomped. Dead on the ground.... Think I made a wrong turn :/
m621 zma OMFGZOMBIESRUN 67	Posted - 2014.01.02 13:34:00 - [20] - Quote HAV and ADS (also probs LLAV when they return) should be removed from Ambush. I'd allow 'normal' dropships and Lav's only

Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 565	Posted - 2014.01.02 14:06:00 - [21] - Quote The only way they should remain is with an expanded map and fortified turret installations.
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1391	Posted - 2014.01.02 14:11:00 - [22] - Quote Personally I would just prefer to be rid of Amvush Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2098	Posted - 2014.01.02 14:13:00 - [23] - Quote Should AV be removed from skirmish? long moan and rant about how it effects my playstyle and its OP Answer = lolyes did you expect me to say no? lolno its a yes Intelligence is OP
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 593	Posted - 2014.01.02 14:14:00 - [24] - Quote Should ambush finally have decent spawnpoints before you can call it a viable gamemode?
stlcarlos989 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 807	Posted - 2014.01.02 14:20:00 - [25] - Quote The Black Art wrote: An STB member tired of tank spam? The irony. We have over 400 members with maybe 5 who are actually PC tankers, non of us not even our directors or CEO have control over what what our members run in pub matches. I don't know why marston brought up Nyan san they are just using the FoTM and everyone is guilty of it except those of us who refuse to use tanks because we prefer fighting with a gun in hand. So go ahead generalize our members but with as many tank users as STB has we also have at least 5 times that number who refuse to get in them. STB Director, #1 in Warpoints E3 Closed Beta Build, Water Pipe Aficionado
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 3279	Posted - 2014.01.02 17:16:00 - [26] - Quote My response as a tanker: yes Why? Because I run ambush as infantry to make isk for my tanks. I really hate having to call in my tank to deal with a couple of tank spamming twats. Lack of content makes stuff broken... Tank driver // specialized tank destroyer
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1413	Posted - 2014.01.02 17:38:00 - [27] - Quote Justicar Karnellia wrote: I appreciate what you're trying to do, and you do explain quite clearly the zero-sum game that is caused by the tank/infantry AV imbalance (tanks kill other tanks better than infantry AV, so take out a tank)... and even though I would like to see ambush without vehicles, I think it wouldn't address the underlying problem of tanks in general, so wouldn't provide a complete solution to the problem. Having said that - if they DID do it, then I imagine ambush would suddenly become very popular as people could use it as a haven from the tank spam that occurs in other game modes. That's just it though, tank spam really doesn't occur that much in other game modes. At least not to the same degree, and when it does its still not nearly as noticeable because you can always bunker down in whatever objective is inside a compound. IF tanks were reduced to a two tank limit per team this would only be an attempt at avoiding the problem. The truth of the matter is that the relationship between infantry and tanks is unbalanced in favor of the tanks. (or vehicles in general really). so rather then just trying to do patch work, just remove vehicles from ambush entirely. As you said, this would create a safe haven for those who simply don't want to deal with that BS. Look at it like EVE online. You don't want to worry about getting killed in low sec/null sec space while mining? Move to high sec. You get less out of it, but at least your not pissed off the entire time your doing it. My proposal has other benefits as well. Because vehicles would be a non-factor, and the maps would be MUCH smaller, this should theoretically leave space open for an increased player cap, creating a more chaotic environment for infantry to actually enjoy. Really this idea has nothing but good written all over it. Sure some tank drivers get shafted a bit, but honestly, whats the difference between them going into an ambush to tank spam, and them going into a domination/skirmish to tank spam? None..... except if they want to win they actually have to do something to help the team other then just selfishly raping everyone for there own personal gain. Marston VC, STB Director
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1413	Posted - 2014.01.02 17:42:00 - [28] - Quote stlcarlos989 wrote: The Black Art wrote: An STB member tired of tank spam? The irony. We have over 400 members with maybe 5 who are actually PC tankers, non of us not even our directors or CEO have control over what what our members run in pub matches. I don't know why marston brought up Nyan san they are just using the FoTM and everyone is guilty of it except those of us who refuse to use tanks because we prefer fighting with a gun in hand. So go ahead generalize our members but with as many tank users as STB has we also have at least 5 times that number who refuse to get in them. I brought nyan san up because their notorious for running full squads of tankers right now. Like back when flaylock pistols were good. They ran nothing but those plus flux grenades. Im not trying to call them out or anything. Im just using them as a convenient example/highlight to exactly whats broken in the game right now. Because as you said, there using the FoTM right now. Nyan san (and many others that are less reputable) take these FoTM and abuse them to no end, which really highlights the problems with them. In a way there doing the community a favor because I guarantee somethings going to change with vehicles eventually. Marston VC, STB Director
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1413	Posted - 2014.01.02 17:43:00 - [29] - Quote RKKR wrote: Should ambush finally have decent spawnpoints before you can call it a viable gamemode? It should remove vehicles first so you actually spawn. Then if CCP listens and reduces the map size spawn location wont matter because you'll be close to the action anyway. I'd rather get spawned on the front lines then get spawned literally three miles away from the nearest red berry. Marston VC, STB Director
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1413	Posted - 2014.01.02 17:44:00 - [30] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Should AV be removed from skirmish? long moan and rant about how it effects my playstyle and its OP Answer = lolyes did you expect me to say no? lolno its a yes 1.7 effectively removed the efficacy of AV in the game anyway. Theres no need to remove AV from skirmish because it barely works anyway. The most it can do in its current state is scare tanks away, but that's what CCP intended. They said that "we want tanks that can do hit and run tactics. Be really strong for a brief period of time, but otherwise be pretty weak" The only problem with that is that unless you can pull off over 4000-5000 alpha damage within 5 seconds most tanks can just flip on their hardeners and be fully repped and ready to blast you within that time. Marston VC, STB Director



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