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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7572
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Posted - 2013.12.22 06:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
I did some analysis of faction warfare rewards, LP costs of faction store gear, the results are pretty poopy.
[Comparison]
A purely ISK-bought standard fitting:
STD Minmatar logistics
2X basic shield extended
Basic armor plate
Basic armor repair module
STD mass driver
STD RE
STD active scanner
STD repair tool
Cost: 11,850 ISK
Now the same fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal):
STD Minmatar logistics
2X basic shield extended
Basic armor plate
Basic armor repair module
STD mass driver
STD RE
STD active scanner
STD repair tool
Cost: 200 LP (140 Republic / 60 Federal)
ISK rewards of public contracts on average range from 70-400K depending on your performance; this is not exact, but based on experience. 70k represents absolute laziness (like AFK farming), and 400k represents performing extremely well.
With the ISK rewards you can buy between 6-33 full fits of the STD ISK fitting.
LP rewards of FW contracts on average range from 326-659 depending on your standing. This is based on these numbers released by CCP.
With the LP rewards you can buy between 1-3 full fits (depending on standing) of the STD LP fitting.
[Findings]
The crappy ISK rewards you get from sitting in the MCC and doing nothing will still buy you more than the LP you get after grinding through and winning 200 matches and getting level 10 standing.
[But what about the player market?]
The argument could be made that once the player market is out that the LP items will make FW worth it since they could be sold to others for a high price, but most LP items are just lowered-SP-requirement variants, and lower-fitting-cost variants; I don't know how much others would be willing to pay for those, but I'd personally never pay more than twice as much for them. So we established that at lv 10 standing you get 659 LP per win, and you can by 3 standard LP fits whose ISK-equivalent cost 35,550 ISK (11,850 x 3 fits).
If you spend your 659 LP on the faction store on 3 fits worth of standard gear, and then sell it for ISK to me (I'm only willing to pay 2x the price of regular items), then when you turn that LP into ISK you get 71,100 ISK (35,550 ISK x 2 since I'm willing to pay 2x the price of the regular equivalent).
So IF you have level 10 standing, IF you won the FW battle, and you sell the faction store gear you spent all your winning LP on to me, then you can make about 70k ISK from selling the full product of your victory to me... or you could just AFK-farm in public battles and make perhaps even more ISK, and you wouldn't even need to win.
Players will need to value faction store items several times more than their ISK counterparts just to make FW worth it. If valued 3x as much as regular items then you can make bout 100k on player market, if valued 4x value is about 140k, for 5x value 177k, for 6x value 213k. When your standing is level 10, players have to value faction store gear to be worth at least 6x the value of regular gear just to make a ISK comparable to a public contract skirmish's ISK rewards.
[Conclusion]
There is no reason to spend all that time in FW trying to get your standings up; a regular skirmish battle will likely be more profitable (win or lose) then a level 10 standing victory. LP rewards need to be substantially increased, like multiply both wining and losing LP by 8.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Mobius Wyvern
Isuuaya Tactical
Caldari State
4200
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Posted - 2013.12.22 06:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
...wow.
Pretty serious when you look at it that way.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
1321
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 07:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
This needs to be shown to the DEVs
"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
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jerrmy12 kahoalii
Krullefor Organization
Minmatar Republic
168
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Posted - 2013.12.22 07:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
im saving my 30 day caldari booster until i get at least 1,000 LP at level 1, i have level 2
recuruit link
5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
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dogmanpig
black market bank
84
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Posted - 2013.12.22 07:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
that LP reward is if you win.. i seen 72 LP points for losing and had over 3k wp.
not that it is a huge effect to your numbers your not counting the increased loot from things killed in the field.
You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way.
Level 8 1/10 Forum alt.
"Its worth half a penny and a reach around"
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
623
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Posted - 2013.12.22 07:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Battle rewards of all types other than PC need a rework, ISK vs Risk is completely skewed. Obviously you should be able to pull a better reward from any battle with better gear ie more functionality/survivability but such is often not the case. Even with the better rewards offered by the Pub matches it seems worthwhile to point out that one side wins and the other loses and Scotty is often drunk enough to make all the mercs on one side fresh out of the Academy but for a smattering of proto users, while the other team is fully squaded and plays PC on a regular basis. Risk vs reward then tanks for the side from the Academy and skyrockets for the PC players just by being in the battle. Higher Risk should entail higher payouts, and in this case the main risk is that Scotty is going to take a dump on you.
As for the number of suit that you can purchase if you do exceptionally in a Pub match, invariably it comes down to how many you can afford to replace after the match even if you win the WP ticker. I say this after being in several matches today where I was running only standard and advanced gear, and seeing first hand just how bad it can get. There is no way to really cut your losses other than to run starter or bpo suits if you are up against a stacked team. You will die more often and you will lose. Plain and simple. As a logi the problem can be a lot harder because without your good kit you stand to make far less wp than if you were to run even advanced gear. While you may be able to replace 4 or more suits if running standard suits in pub matches you will be receiving mid grade pay as well and still be receiving the equivalent pay to a WIN in FW batlle with only enough isk to cover your 1-3 fits listed. Certainly not what you want if you are looking to maximize your earning potential.
FW payouts though are terrible. There is no way at all to recoup losses, or to consider funding your gear by running faction gear.
LogiGod earns his pips
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7576
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 08:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Battle rewards of all types other than PC need a rework, ISK vs Risk is completely skewed. Obviously you should be able to pull a better reward from any battle with better gear ie more functionality/survivability but such is often not the case. Even with the better rewards offered by the Pub matches it seems worthwhile to point out that one side wins and the other loses and Scotty is often drunk enough to make all the mercs on one side fresh out of the Academy but for a smattering of proto users, while the other team is fully squaded and plays PC on a regular basis. Risk vs reward then tanks for the side from the Academy and skyrockets for the PC players just by being in the battle. Higher Risk should entail higher payouts, and in this case the main risk is that Scotty is going to take a dump on you.
As for the number of suit that you can purchase if you do exceptionally in a Pub match, invariably it comes down to how many you can afford to replace after the match even if you win the WP ticker. I say this after being in several matches today where I was running only standard and advanced gear, and seeing first hand just how bad it can get. There is no way to really cut your losses other than to run starter or bpo suits if you are up against a stacked team. You will die more often and you will lose. Plain and simple. As a logi the problem can be a lot harder because without your good kit you stand to make far less wp than if you were to run even advanced gear. While you may be able to replace 4 or more suits if running standard suits in pub matches you will be receiving mid grade pay as well and still be receiving the equivalent pay to a WIN in FW batlle with only enough isk to cover your 1-3 fits listed. Certainly not what you want if you are looking to maximize your earning potential.
FW payouts though are terrible. There is no way at all to recoup losses, or to consider funding your gear by running faction gear.
You should make a thread about public battle rewards, and propose an alternative system.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4873
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 12:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
IIRC ISK per LP is actually lower with STD and ADV items.
Try this calculation with proto.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7582
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Posted - 2013.12.22 12:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:IIRC ISK per LP is actually lower with STD and ADV items.
Try this calculation with proto.
Can you do it please? I had to overcome a lot of laziness to make this thread.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4875
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 12:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cat Merc wrote:IIRC ISK per LP is actually lower with STD and ADV items.
Try this calculation with proto. Can you do it please? I had to overcome a lot of laziness to make this thread.
My TV is broken, can't access Dust right now :X
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
6583
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Posted - 2013.12.22 12:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cat Merc wrote:IIRC ISK per LP is actually lower with STD and ADV items.
Try this calculation with proto. Can you do it please? I had to overcome a lot of laziness to make this thread.
I ran some calculations a while ago and got around 400 ISK/LP for most prototype items.
That doesn't include the specialist gear though, which doesn't have a solid ISK value and is very LP expensive anyway.
Level 6 Forum Warrior
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4875
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Posted - 2013.12.22 12:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cat Merc wrote:IIRC ISK per LP is actually lower with STD and ADV items.
Try this calculation with proto. Can you do it please? I had to overcome a lot of laziness to make this thread. I ran some calculations a while ago and got around 400 ISK/LP for most prototype weapons. That doesn't include the specialist gear though, which doesn't have a solid ISK value and is very LP expensive anyway.
Proto weapons.
Suits seem to be worse off in value.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
624
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 14:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
You should make a thread about public battle rewards, and propose an alternative system.
I have this has been said, what did they do? Released Uprising, then with each subsequent patch it has been said as well.
LogiGod earns his pips
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7584
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Posted - 2013.12.22 22:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Any more thoughts?
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
624
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Posted - 2013.12.22 22:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Any more thoughts?
Release a P2P market?
LogiGod earns his pips
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Stephen Seneca
State Patriots
Templis De Novo
28
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Posted - 2013.12.22 23:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
I suggest scaling LP to be in line with isk payouts in pubs.
Taking your average payouts (70k-400k isk) have the winning team make the LP equivalent from 250k to 400k with the amounts based on battle performance. The losing team earning 75k to 225k.
If a standard suit costs 15k to 20k or so means you would be able to afford about 20 basic suits for a first place win to about 4 or 5 for a last place loss.
For the State!
Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh.
Rail Rifles. All. The. Way!
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
625
|
Posted - 2013.12.23 00:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Any more thoughts? Release a P2P market?
This actually might make sense if you take into consideration the lower SP cost to use all the faction items. Basically it evens out the need for the user of the items to have the SP to use the regular gear, but until we have the ability to sell stuff this still is a lose lose system that we have in place, look forward to a market soon (not TM).
LogiGod earns his pips
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7593
|
Posted - 2013.12.23 11:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Any more thoughts? Release a P2P market? This actually might make sense if you take into consideration the lower SP cost to use all the faction items. Basically it evens out the need for the user of the items to have the SP to use the regular gear, but until we have the ability to sell stuff this still is a lose lose system that we have in place, look forward to a market soon (not TM).
I addressed the player market in the OP, players will have to value faction gear at least 6x more than regular gear just to be as profitable as an average skirmish payout, and that's just for level 10 standing.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
303
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Posted - 2013.12.23 13:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Good post. My only comment would be you need to edit your numbers so that the true maximum is shown (including LP booster). This is because it's a free-to-play game and the business model is based around a "reduced" experience for people who play free, while those that pay get the "normal" experience. The intended maximum is 800 odd LP, not 659. This is the same for skillpoints, etc. When CCP design payouts they always account for two scenarios:
a) a normal paying player (normal experience and progression)
b) a freetard (reduced experience and progression)
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CELESTA AUNGM
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
74
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Posted - 2013.12.23 15:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Any more thoughts? Release a P2P market? This actually might make sense if you take into consideration the lower SP cost to use all the faction items. Basically it evens out the need for the user of the items to have the SP to use the regular gear, but until we have the ability to sell stuff this still is a lose lose system that we have in place, look forward to a market soon (not TM).
I guess I have to disagree with most of the posts here. They are GOOD, but they aren't focusing on what I THINK the devs are focusing on with FW: MOST of your inaccess to your fav gear is due to the high and slow SP cost to UNLOCK it, not on the ISK and Loyalty points to BUY it. IF we do calcs, I THINK we'll find that having to "spend" 2 levels of SP to unlock the weapon is what hurts the most.
I can find an item in FW, and access and unlock it by playing just ONE faction match... where normally if I buy it with my ISK, I'd still have to unlock it by 2 more levels of SKILLpoints,... is an ENORMOUS savings of easily 210 SP points. That's 200 SP that I can use on something else.
The devs are probably looking to build out the Loyalty Store into other items and benefits, but the STARTING benefit they have implemented is "Skill-level reduced" gear. Not your money. Your SP.
After all the SKILL I had to grind on my vehicle alone, I won't complain about this offer. Thank you CCP. |
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Stephen Seneca
State Patriots
Templis CALSF
30
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Posted - 2013.12.23 20:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Its a nice little help at the moment but the current payout scheme will force you to do pubs. Maybe thats what ccp wants but I would prefer to make a living out of FW in the future. I do not believe that Im asking for too much.
For the State!
Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh.
Rail Rifles. All. The. Way!
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The-Errorist
Closed For Business
For All Mankind
412
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Posted - 2013.12.23 21:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
I feel like I wasted valuable time doing FW. |
alten hilt
DUST University
Ivy League
53
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Posted - 2013.12.23 21:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
+1! An excellent analysis.
I've been gathering data to put together a similar analysis and what I have gathered matches up with your analysis perfectly.
IMHO, FW matches should be more profitable than public matches, as they represent the most critical battles being waged in empire space (in terms of lore). Maybe if they were more profitable we would see more pub-stompers move to FW, thus creating a viable new-player experience in public matches, and a better sense of progression for all DUST players.
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The-Errorist
Closed For Business
For All Mankind
417
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Posted - 2013.12.26 10:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
[Comparison]
A purely ISK-bought standard fitting:
PRO Minmatar logistics
4X Complec shield extended
Complec armor plate
Complex armor repair module
Complex PG Upgrade
Complex CPU Upgrade
PRO Freedom mass driver
PRO RE
PRO active scanner
PRO repair tool
Cost: 195,675 ISK
Now the same fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal):
PRO Minmatar logistics
4X Complec shield extended
Complec armor plate
Complex armor repair module
Complex PG Upgrade
Complex CPU Upgrade
PRO Freedom mass driver
PRO RE
PRO active scanner
PRO repair tool
Cost: 1,155 LP (705 Republic / 450 Federal)
With the 659 LP reward fo winning a battle at standings Lv10, you could get 1 full suit every 2 battles. With isk you can get between 0.7 and 4 suits per 2 battles; 0.7 if you make 70k, 1 if you make 100k, 2 if you make 200k, 3 if you make 300k, and 4 if you make 400k.
If you sell the LP stuff for 2x the price of the ISK version, you'd make 195,675 ISK per winning match at Lv10 standings, which isn't that great compared to public battle rewards. |
The-Errorist
Closed For Business
For All Mankind
429
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Posted - 2013.12.29 06:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
I don't see FW being more profitable than public contracts unless something changes. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7666
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 23:21:00 -
[26] - Quote
The-Errorist wrote:I don't see FW being more profitable than public contracts unless something changes.
Agreed
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7691
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Posted - 2013.12.30 23:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
FW should be more challenge, but higher rewards.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7720
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 15:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Any more thoughts?
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Munin-Frey
Fish Spotters Inc.
77
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Posted - 2014.01.02 15:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Are you an accountant?
Just kidding, good analysis. +1 |
Rozencrutz89
From The Mist
18
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Posted - 2014.01.02 15:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Honestly it is kinda annoying that they turned FW into an ISK sink more than anything, the lack of ISK rewards in it make no sense. EVE missions rewarded you with LP for the corp/faction you did it for as well as ISK, why can't we do that.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Rozencrutz89 Dust Vids
http://rozencrutz89.blogspot.com/ Blog on FW Matches
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The-Errorist
444
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Posted - 2014.01.03 01:08:00 -
[31] - Quote
Rozencrutz89 wrote:Honestly it is kinda annoying that they turned FW into an ISK sink more than anything, the lack of ISK rewards in it make no sense. EVE missions rewarded you with LP for the corp/faction you did it for as well as ISK, why can't we do that.
Cuz CCP are weird people. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7769
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 23:09:00 -
[32] - Quote
Rozencrutz89 wrote:Honestly it is kinda annoying that they turned FW into an ISK sink more than anything, the lack of ISK rewards in it make no sense. EVE missions rewarded you with LP for the corp/faction you did it for as well as ISK, why can't we do that.
If they added ISK rewards in addition to LP, then the problem would be fixed. Only the winners should get ISK though, or else no one would do public battles. Another alternative is to have FW ISK rewards half that of a regular public battle.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Rozencrutz89
From The Mist
26
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Posted - 2014.01.05 14:23:00 -
[33] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Rozencrutz89 wrote:Honestly it is kinda annoying that they turned FW into an ISK sink more than anything, the lack of ISK rewards in it make no sense. EVE missions rewarded you with LP for the corp/faction you did it for as well as ISK, why can't we do that. If they added ISK rewards in addition to LP, then the problem would be fixed. Only the winners should get ISK though, or else no one would do public battles. Another alternative is to have FW ISK rewards half that of a regular public battle.
I like this idea winners being the only ones to get ISK rewards would make it more competitive.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Rozencrutz89 Dust Vids
http://rozencrutz89.blogspot.com/ Blog on FW Matches
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Middas Betancore
Chronological Protection Agency
13
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Posted - 2014.01.05 14:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
U are correct LP rewards per match is less isk value than public matches,to buy items such as basic shield extender and G38 rifles yields very poor return,however some the items u buy with LP are not available for isk.
One would assume that FW is not intended to be a mercs sole occupation and that FW play should be augmented with public and PC games.
This leads into a diverse play experience as u may find yourself playing a couple of dom, couple of cal FW an ammar FW, then turning up to defend or attack a PC district (and hopefully a few rounds of PVE soon). You could be using a mix of isk and LP to create all manner of fits, some items u don't have skills for, weapons that have less fitting, equipment with better attributes (State Wyrkomi injector, 100% armour upon revival!!).
In conclusion a small increase in LP payout may occur, but i don't believe it is necessary, i would like to see a small isk payout for both sides (as winners already have the advantage of more LP) but what may be interesting and fun to have is LP store discount sales, or FW events with increased payout/standing increase.
Middas Betancore-
Caldari FW Tactical Liason
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7790
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Posted - 2014.01.05 14:54:00 -
[35] - Quote
Middas Betancore wrote: U are correct LP rewards per match is less isk value than public matches,to buy items such as basic shield extender and G38 rifles yields very poor return,however some the items u buy with LP are not available for isk.
One would assume that FW is not intended to be a mercs sole occupation and that FW play should be augmented with public and PC games.
This leads into a diverse play experience as u may find yourself playing a couple of dom, couple of cal FW an ammar FW, then turning up to defend or attack a PC district (and hopefully a few rounds of PVE soon). You could be using a mix of isk and LP to create all manner of fits, some items u don't have skills for, weapons that have less fitting, equipment with better attributes (State Wyrkomi injector, 100% armour upon revival!!).
In conclusion a small increase in LP payout may occur, but i don't believe it is necessary, but what may be interesting and fun to have is LP store discount sales, or FW events with increased payout/standing increase.
I did cover the items in LP store not available for ISK, but for that to make it worth it, those items have to be valued an extraordinary amount more than regular items just to make them worth it.
I don't think the slight superiority of a very few number of items is enough to make it worth it, and the difference between the quality of those few LP items and the ISK ones aren't great enough to make FW worth it.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Middas Betancore
Chronological Protection Agency
13
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Posted - 2014.01.05 15:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
Surely their uniqueness and exclusivity raises their value enough, i myself play FW for the interest of helping to organise bigger groups of players alongside eve orbital support, the LP on both games is just a pleasant side effect.
Middas Betancore-
Caldari FW Tactical Liason
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7790
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Posted - 2014.01.05 15:05:00 -
[37] - Quote
Middas Betancore wrote:Surely their uniqueness and exclusivity raises their value enough, i myself play FW for the interest of helping to organise bigger groups of players alongside eve orbital support, the LP on both games is just a pleasant side effect.
By my (crude) calculations of ISK vs LP, LP items would have to be valued 6 times more than ISK items just to make the payouts comparable to an public Skirmish, and that's just for when your standings is level 10. I wouldn't pay 6 times the price of a prototype regular injector for an LP one.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Middas Betancore
Chronological Protection Agency
13
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Posted - 2014.01.05 15:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
I think expecting FW to have equal payouts to public games may be too much, these items should still be a valuable luxury, however if u don't win FW u get a lot less, so maybe a raise in LP would heighten competition even further while giving the winners the value they feel they deserve.
So now i see it that way, raise LP payout, fan the flames of war and to the victor the spoils
Middas Betancore-
Caldari FW Tactical Liason
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Stephen Seneca
Providence Guard
Templis CALSF
40
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Posted - 2014.01.07 00:16:00 -
[39] - Quote
The thing is that the FW items only allow less skilled players to use them. You dont earn enough lp to use those items consistently enough in any case. Once the player market is in you might be able to sell high enough to newbies, even though they technically would be smarter running the frontline fit or a full basic suit which would cost less than one proto faction item.
Faction items should have 1 or 2 percent, or only very marginally, better stats to get all players interested in purchasing them.
For the State!
Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh.
Rail Rifles. All. The. Way!
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
306
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Posted - 2014.01.07 03:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
Told you people that this man is " No Joke " and should be one of the CPM's , when it's time to vote , vote for the people who will TRUELY represent YOU and not just a name or because they are cool and all . The Horned Wolf is cool too but he is a man that's passionate about Dust 514 and it's outlook and how the game and the system treats YOU .
No , I'm not his campaign manager but I just watch people and what they write and a few of these players are " The Truth " and this is one .
Real recognize Real .
Judge Rad , I-Shayz-I , TechMechMeds , Bolsh Lee are a few that just come off the top of my head but there are more I just can't think of them now .
Future Caldari Heavy so watch out for this Sumo Shinobi with a Caldari HMG .
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Banjo Robertson
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
35
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Posted - 2014.01.07 06:20:00 -
[41] - Quote
I agree that the LP rewards are low compared to ISK rewards in public matches. But I don't compare the Loyalty gear to standard gear, I compare it to Aurum gear. Most LP items are exactly the same as Aurum items. The difference is Aurum is fake money you buy with real money, and LP is fake money that is worth more time and effort than the other fake money you can earn which is ISK.
And then the remaining LP items that are not exactly the same as Aurum items are slightly better versions of Proto equipment, so they don't even have an ISK version that could be purchased.
So yes, it needs balancing out, but you are comparing apples to oranges. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
8039
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Posted - 2014.01.13 22:33:00 -
[42] - Quote
Any more thoughts?
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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The-Errorist
458
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Posted - 2014.01.14 22:47:00 -
[43] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Any more thoughts?
Thoughts on Internet forums? You must be crazy. |
The-Errorist
460
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Posted - 2014.01.18 13:27:00 -
[44] - Quote
For a type of battle that has no ISK rewards, friendly fire, allows EVE players to join the fight, AND has an actual influence in EVE Online, the rewards are severely lacking. |
Munin-Frey
Fish Spotters Inc.
89
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Posted - 2014.01.18 17:11:00 -
[45] - Quote
I play only FW and I will definitely agree that the reward is pretty bad if you win and complete crap if you lose.
On very rare matches I'll get some decent salvage which makes it worthwhile but FW will probably end up only being played by rich players who can afford to lose fittings and get nothing for it if they don't fix the reward system.
Also, it is a little weird that the losers really get the shaft in FW... we are mercs right? Since when do mercenaries earn less when they lose? You pay them before you go to battle and you typically don't expect much loyalty. It's weird that dust mercs earn their payout after a match and that the payout is way better if you win.
No wonder people come up with all kinds of scams to win.
Lastly, a lot of the FW stuff is the same as the what you can buy with AUR. If any of you have done the math you know that you can buy stuff that takes 20 minutes of gameplay to win for a few pennies. I highly doubt that the FW stuff will be worth that much because why would I grind for ISK in pub matches when I can buy $20 worth of AUR and have literally hundreds of the same item? My time is worth more than that and I think most people will feel the same way. They will either play with free stuff or play with cheap fittings or buy AUR. Only a handful will play the game "as intended" or perhaps buying AUR is "as intended" gameplay 
Closed Beta Veteran
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Munin-Frey
Fish Spotters Inc.
89
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Posted - 2014.01.18 17:13:00 -
[46] - Quote
alten hilt wrote:+1! An excellent analysis.
I've been gathering data to put together a similar analysis and what I have gathered matches up with your analysis perfectly.
IMHO, FW matches should be more profitable than public matches, as they represent the most critical battles being waged in empire space (in terms of lore). Maybe if they were more profitable we would see more pub-stompers move to FW, thus creating a viable new-player experience in public matches, and a better sense of progression for all DUST players.
I see a LOT of black suits in FW. I feel that FW is a vanity game mode ATM. Or perhaps played by role players or at least people who care about EVE and FW.
Closed Beta Veteran
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Munin-Frey
Fish Spotters Inc.
89
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Posted - 2014.01.18 17:17:00 -
[47] - Quote
Stephen Seneca wrote:The thing is that the FW items only allow less skilled players to use them. You dont earn enough lp to use those items consistently enough in any case. Once the player market is in you might be able to sell high enough to newbies, even though they technically would be smarter running the frontline fit or a full basic suit which would cost less than one proto faction item.
Faction items should have 1 or 2 percent, or only very marginally, better stats to get all players interested in purchasing them.
This isn't entirely true. For one thing I know there is a PLC in the LP store with absolutely amazing CPU/PG stats. It is so good that it makes a PLC scout possible. There is no other way to get that weapon.
Closed Beta Veteran
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Stephen Seneca
Providence Guard
Templis CALSF
53
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Posted - 2014.01.18 22:22:00 -
[48] - Quote
Oh yeah, I forgot about the specialist weapons. Proto weapons for advanced level fitting. The thing is you are making my point. By having that item better, it creates market interest.
The Caldari nanite injector is another faction item that would be a seller.
The vast majority of items are equal to the same 'tech 1' versions available on the market that are available to everyone. If theres only 1 or 2 items that are in high demand, the supply will be far too high to charge a decent profit for your FW troubles.
For the State!
Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh.
Rail Rifles. All. The. Way!
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Banjo Robertson
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
44
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Posted - 2014.01.19 02:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
Munin-Frey wrote:I play only FW and I will definitely agree that the reward is pretty bad if you win and complete crap if you lose. On very rare matches I'll get some decent salvage which makes it worthwhile but FW will probably end up only being played by rich players who can afford to lose fittings and get nothing for it if they don't fix the reward system. Also, it is a little weird that the losers really get the shaft in FW... we are mercs right? Since when do mercenaries earn less when they lose? You pay them before you go to battle and you typically don't expect much loyalty. It's weird that dust mercs earn their payout after a match and that the payout is way better if you win. No wonder people come up with all kinds of scams to win. Lastly, a lot of the FW stuff is the same as the what you can buy with AUR. If any of you have done the math you know that you can buy stuff that takes 20 minutes of gameplay to win for a few pennies. I highly doubt that the FW stuff will be worth that much because why would I grind for ISK in pub matches when I can buy $20 worth of AUR and have literally hundreds of the same item? My time is worth more than that and I think most people will feel the same way. They will either play with free stuff or play with cheap fittings or buy AUR. Only a handful will play the game "as intended" or perhaps buying AUR is "as intended" gameplay
People buying aurum and 'game packs' is the only way CCP makes money off of dust, so if people could get LP items at a high/fast enough rate, which are exactly the same as AUR items, then CCP would lose money. Unless they decide to come up with more AUR items which do not have LP counterparts.
The LP you earn as rewards might need to be raised, but not by much. You're basically playing a match to earn almost-but-not-quite-Aurum. |
The-Errorist
560
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Posted - 2014.03.14 05:04:00 -
[50] - Quote
Banjo Robertson wrote:Munin-Frey wrote:I play only FW and I will definitely agree that the reward is pretty bad if you win and complete crap if you lose. On very rare matches I'll get some decent salvage which makes it worthwhile but FW will probably end up only being played by rich players who can afford to lose fittings and get nothing for it if they don't fix the reward system. Also, it is a little weird that the losers really get the shaft in FW... we are mercs right? Since when do mercenaries earn less when they lose? You pay them before you go to battle and you typically don't expect much loyalty. It's weird that dust mercs earn their payout after a match and that the payout is way better if you win. No wonder people come up with all kinds of scams to win. Lastly, a lot of the FW stuff is the same as the what you can buy with AUR. If any of you have done the math you know that you can buy stuff that takes 20 minutes of gameplay to win for a few pennies. I highly doubt that the FW stuff will be worth that much because why would I grind for ISK in pub matches when I can buy $20 worth of AUR and have literally hundreds of the same item? My time is worth more than that and I think most people will feel the same way. They will either play with free stuff or play with cheap fittings or buy AUR. Only a handful will play the game "as intended" or perhaps buying AUR is "as intended" gameplay People buying aurum and 'game packs' is the only way CCP makes money off of dust, so if people could get LP items at a high/fast enough rate, which are exactly the same as AUR items, then CCP would lose money. Unless they decide to come up with more AUR items which do not have LP counterparts. The LP you earn as rewards might need to be raised, but not by much. You're basically playing a match to earn almost-but-not-quite-Aurum.
So what if it's "almost-but-not-quite-Aurum", it doesn't excuse the fact that FW is not profitable compared to pub matches, even at the highest standing level. Games modes that are financially not worth the time for a mercenary are bad for Dust 514.
Theres a couple ways fixing the problem though; make the loosing LP payout at least 50% of the winning payout instead of around 20% and increase the winning payout and a combination of one or more of these things would be necessary:
1) Increase salvage percentage to 25%, 50%, and 75%; in pub, FW, and PC respectively.
2) Make LP items not have lower skill requirements like AUR items and further increase the LP payouts.
3) Incentivize fighting for factions that are losing by increasing the LP or salvage percentage for winning, based on how much that faction is losing. |
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The-Errorist
568
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Posted - 2014.03.19 18:07:00 -
[51] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:When your standing is level 10, players have to value faction store gear to be worth at least 6x the value of regular gear just to make a ISK comparable to a public contract skirmish's ISK rewards.
This is ridiculous and reforms need to be implemented. |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1878
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Posted - 2014.03.19 18:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
I think that with the player market coming there needs to be a careful examination of the impact raising the amount of LP could have, since so many of the items are basically identical to isk versions. A better approach would probably to make the LP itself more valuable by introducing more specialist versions of items that people will want to buy lots of. That, and some cool vanity items. Then people can't flood the market with LP versions of aur modules. |
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