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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7572
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Posted - 2013.12.22 06:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
I did some analysis of faction warfare rewards, LP costs of faction store gear, the results are pretty poopy.
[Comparison] A purely ISK-bought standard fitting: STD Minmatar logistics 2X basic shield extended Basic armor plate Basic armor repair module STD mass driver STD RE STD active scanner STD repair tool Cost: 11,850 ISK
Now the same fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal): STD Minmatar logistics 2X basic shield extended Basic armor plate Basic armor repair module STD mass driver STD RE STD active scanner STD repair tool Cost: 200 LP (140 Republic / 60 Federal)
ISK rewards of public contracts on average range from 70-400K depending on your performance; this is not exact, but based on experience. 70k represents absolute laziness (like AFK farming), and 400k represents performing extremely well. With the ISK rewards you can buy between 6-33 full fits of the STD ISK fitting.
LP rewards of FW contracts on average range from 326-659 depending on your standing. This is based on these numbers released by CCP. With the LP rewards you can buy between 1-3 full fits (depending on standing) of the STD LP fitting.
[Findings] The crappy ISK rewards you get from sitting in the MCC and doing nothing will still buy you more than the LP you get after grinding through and winning 200 matches and getting level 10 standing.
[But what about the player market?] The argument could be made that once the player market is out that the LP items will make FW worth it since they could be sold to others for a high price, but most LP items are just lowered-SP-requirement variants, and lower-fitting-cost variants; I don't know how much others would be willing to pay for those, but I'd personally never pay more than twice as much for them. So we established that at lv 10 standing you get 659 LP per win, and you can by 3 standard LP fits whose ISK-equivalent cost 35,550 ISK (11,850 x 3 fits).
If you spend your 659 LP on the faction store on 3 fits worth of standard gear, and then sell it for ISK to me (I'm only willing to pay 2x the price of regular items), then when you turn that LP into ISK you get 71,100 ISK (35,550 ISK x 2 since I'm willing to pay 2x the price of the regular equivalent).
So IF you have level 10 standing, IF you won the FW battle, and you sell the faction store gear you spent all your winning LP on to me, then you can make about 70k ISK from selling the full product of your victory to me... or you could just AFK-farm in public battles and make perhaps even more ISK, and you wouldn't even need to win.
Players will need to value faction store items several times more than their ISK counterparts just to make FW worth it. If valued 3x as much as regular items then you can make bout 100k on player market, if valued 4x value is about 140k, for 5x value 177k, for 6x value 213k. When your standing is level 10, players have to value faction store gear to be worth at least 6x the value of regular gear just to make a ISK comparable to a public contract skirmish's ISK rewards.
[Conclusion] There is no reason to spend all that time in FW trying to get your standings up; a regular skirmish battle will likely be more profitable (win or lose) then a level 10 standing victory. LP rewards need to be substantially increased, like multiply both wining and losing LP by 8.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Mobius Wyvern
Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State
4200
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Posted - 2013.12.22 06:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
...wow.
Pretty serious when you look at it that way.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
1321
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Posted - 2013.12.22 07:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
This needs to be shown to the DEVs
"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
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jerrmy12 kahoalii
Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic
168
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Posted - 2013.12.22 07:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
im saving my 30 day caldari booster until i get at least 1,000 LP at level 1, i have level 2
recuruit link
5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
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dogmanpig
black market bank
84
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Posted - 2013.12.22 07:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
that LP reward is if you win.. i seen 72 LP points for losing and had over 3k wp.
not that it is a huge effect to your numbers your not counting the increased loot from things killed in the field.
You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way.
Level 8 1/10 Forum alt.
"Its worth half a penny and a reach around"
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
623
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Posted - 2013.12.22 07:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Battle rewards of all types other than PC need a rework, ISK vs Risk is completely skewed. Obviously you should be able to pull a better reward from any battle with better gear ie more functionality/survivability but such is often not the case. Even with the better rewards offered by the Pub matches it seems worthwhile to point out that one side wins and the other loses and Scotty is often drunk enough to make all the mercs on one side fresh out of the Academy but for a smattering of proto users, while the other team is fully squaded and plays PC on a regular basis. Risk vs reward then tanks for the side from the Academy and skyrockets for the PC players just by being in the battle. Higher Risk should entail higher payouts, and in this case the main risk is that Scotty is going to take a dump on you.
As for the number of suit that you can purchase if you do exceptionally in a Pub match, invariably it comes down to how many you can afford to replace after the match even if you win the WP ticker. I say this after being in several matches today where I was running only standard and advanced gear, and seeing first hand just how bad it can get. There is no way to really cut your losses other than to run starter or bpo suits if you are up against a stacked team. You will die more often and you will lose. Plain and simple. As a logi the problem can be a lot harder because without your good kit you stand to make far less wp than if you were to run even advanced gear. While you may be able to replace 4 or more suits if running standard suits in pub matches you will be receiving mid grade pay as well and still be receiving the equivalent pay to a WIN in FW batlle with only enough isk to cover your 1-3 fits listed. Certainly not what you want if you are looking to maximize your earning potential.
FW payouts though are terrible. There is no way at all to recoup losses, or to consider funding your gear by running faction gear.
LogiGod earns his pips
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7576
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Posted - 2013.12.22 08:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Battle rewards of all types other than PC need a rework, ISK vs Risk is completely skewed. Obviously you should be able to pull a better reward from any battle with better gear ie more functionality/survivability but such is often not the case. Even with the better rewards offered by the Pub matches it seems worthwhile to point out that one side wins and the other loses and Scotty is often drunk enough to make all the mercs on one side fresh out of the Academy but for a smattering of proto users, while the other team is fully squaded and plays PC on a regular basis. Risk vs reward then tanks for the side from the Academy and skyrockets for the PC players just by being in the battle. Higher Risk should entail higher payouts, and in this case the main risk is that Scotty is going to take a dump on you.
As for the number of suit that you can purchase if you do exceptionally in a Pub match, invariably it comes down to how many you can afford to replace after the match even if you win the WP ticker. I say this after being in several matches today where I was running only standard and advanced gear, and seeing first hand just how bad it can get. There is no way to really cut your losses other than to run starter or bpo suits if you are up against a stacked team. You will die more often and you will lose. Plain and simple. As a logi the problem can be a lot harder because without your good kit you stand to make far less wp than if you were to run even advanced gear. While you may be able to replace 4 or more suits if running standard suits in pub matches you will be receiving mid grade pay as well and still be receiving the equivalent pay to a WIN in FW batlle with only enough isk to cover your 1-3 fits listed. Certainly not what you want if you are looking to maximize your earning potential.
FW payouts though are terrible. There is no way at all to recoup losses, or to consider funding your gear by running faction gear.
You should make a thread about public battle rewards, and propose an alternative system.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4873
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Posted - 2013.12.22 12:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
IIRC ISK per LP is actually lower with STD and ADV items.
Try this calculation with proto.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7582
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Posted - 2013.12.22 12:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:IIRC ISK per LP is actually lower with STD and ADV items.
Try this calculation with proto. Can you do it please? I had to overcome a lot of laziness to make this thread.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4875
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Posted - 2013.12.22 12:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cat Merc wrote:IIRC ISK per LP is actually lower with STD and ADV items.
Try this calculation with proto. Can you do it please? I had to overcome a lot of laziness to make this thread. My TV is broken, can't access Dust right now :X
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
6583
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Posted - 2013.12.22 12:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cat Merc wrote:IIRC ISK per LP is actually lower with STD and ADV items.
Try this calculation with proto. Can you do it please? I had to overcome a lot of laziness to make this thread.
I ran some calculations a while ago and got around 400 ISK/LP for most prototype items. That doesn't include the specialist gear though, which doesn't have a solid ISK value and is very LP expensive anyway.
Level 6 Forum Warrior
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4875
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Posted - 2013.12.22 12:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Cat Merc wrote:IIRC ISK per LP is actually lower with STD and ADV items.
Try this calculation with proto. Can you do it please? I had to overcome a lot of laziness to make this thread. I ran some calculations a while ago and got around 400 ISK/LP for most prototype weapons. That doesn't include the specialist gear though, which doesn't have a solid ISK value and is very LP expensive anyway. Proto weapons. Suits seem to be worse off in value.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
624
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Posted - 2013.12.22 14:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You should make a thread about public battle rewards, and propose an alternative system.
I have this has been said, what did they do? Released Uprising, then with each subsequent patch it has been said as well.
LogiGod earns his pips
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7584
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Posted - 2013.12.22 22:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Any more thoughts?
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
624
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Posted - 2013.12.22 22:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Any more thoughts? Release a P2P market?
LogiGod earns his pips
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Stephen Seneca
State Patriots Templis De Novo
28
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Posted - 2013.12.22 23:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
I suggest scaling LP to be in line with isk payouts in pubs.
Taking your average payouts (70k-400k isk) have the winning team make the LP equivalent from 250k to 400k with the amounts based on battle performance. The losing team earning 75k to 225k.
If a standard suit costs 15k to 20k or so means you would be able to afford about 20 basic suits for a first place win to about 4 or 5 for a last place loss.
For the State!
Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh.
Rail Rifles. All. The. Way!
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
625
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Posted - 2013.12.23 00:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Any more thoughts? Release a P2P market? This actually might make sense if you take into consideration the lower SP cost to use all the faction items. Basically it evens out the need for the user of the items to have the SP to use the regular gear, but until we have the ability to sell stuff this still is a lose lose system that we have in place, look forward to a market soon (not TM).
LogiGod earns his pips
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7593
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Posted - 2013.12.23 11:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Any more thoughts? Release a P2P market? This actually might make sense if you take into consideration the lower SP cost to use all the faction items. Basically it evens out the need for the user of the items to have the SP to use the regular gear, but until we have the ability to sell stuff this still is a lose lose system that we have in place, look forward to a market soon (not TM). I addressed the player market in the OP, players will have to value faction gear at least 6x more than regular gear just to be as profitable as an average skirmish payout, and that's just for level 10 standing.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
303
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Posted - 2013.12.23 13:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Good post. My only comment would be you need to edit your numbers so that the true maximum is shown (including LP booster). This is because it's a free-to-play game and the business model is based around a "reduced" experience for people who play free, while those that pay get the "normal" experience. The intended maximum is 800 odd LP, not 659. This is the same for skillpoints, etc. When CCP design payouts they always account for two scenarios:
a) a normal paying player (normal experience and progression) b) a freetard (reduced experience and progression)
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CELESTA AUNGM
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
74
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Posted - 2013.12.23 15:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Any more thoughts? Release a P2P market? This actually might make sense if you take into consideration the lower SP cost to use all the faction items. Basically it evens out the need for the user of the items to have the SP to use the regular gear, but until we have the ability to sell stuff this still is a lose lose system that we have in place, look forward to a market soon (not TM).
I guess I have to disagree with most of the posts here. They are GOOD, but they aren't focusing on what I THINK the devs are focusing on with FW: MOST of your inaccess to your fav gear is due to the high and slow SP cost to UNLOCK it, not on the ISK and Loyalty points to BUY it. IF we do calcs, I THINK we'll find that having to "spend" 2 levels of SP to unlock the weapon is what hurts the most. I can find an item in FW, and access and unlock it by playing just ONE faction match... where normally if I buy it with my ISK, I'd still have to unlock it by 2 more levels of SKILLpoints,... is an ENORMOUS savings of easily 210 SP points. That's 200 SP that I can use on something else.
The devs are probably looking to build out the Loyalty Store into other items and benefits, but the STARTING benefit they have implemented is "Skill-level reduced" gear. Not your money. Your SP.
After all the SKILL I had to grind on my vehicle alone, I won't complain about this offer. Thank you CCP. |
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Stephen Seneca
State Patriots Templis CALSF
30
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Posted - 2013.12.23 20:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Its a nice little help at the moment but the current payout scheme will force you to do pubs. Maybe thats what ccp wants but I would prefer to make a living out of FW in the future. I do not believe that Im asking for too much.
For the State!
Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh.
Rail Rifles. All. The. Way!
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The-Errorist
Closed For Business For All Mankind
412
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Posted - 2013.12.23 21:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
I feel like I wasted valuable time doing FW. |
alten hilt
DUST University Ivy League
53
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Posted - 2013.12.23 21:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
+1! An excellent analysis.
I've been gathering data to put together a similar analysis and what I have gathered matches up with your analysis perfectly.
IMHO, FW matches should be more profitable than public matches, as they represent the most critical battles being waged in empire space (in terms of lore). Maybe if they were more profitable we would see more pub-stompers move to FW, thus creating a viable new-player experience in public matches, and a better sense of progression for all DUST players.
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The-Errorist
Closed For Business For All Mankind
417
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Posted - 2013.12.26 10:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
[Comparison] A purely ISK-bought standard fitting: PRO Minmatar logistics 4X Complec shield extended Complec armor plate Complex armor repair module Complex PG Upgrade Complex CPU Upgrade PRO Freedom mass driver PRO RE PRO active scanner PRO repair tool Cost: 195,675 ISK
Now the same fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal): PRO Minmatar logistics 4X Complec shield extended Complec armor plate Complex armor repair module Complex PG Upgrade Complex CPU Upgrade PRO Freedom mass driver PRO RE PRO active scanner PRO repair tool Cost: 1,155 LP (705 Republic / 450 Federal)
With the 659 LP reward fo winning a battle at standings Lv10, you could get 1 full suit every 2 battles. With isk you can get between 0.7 and 4 suits per 2 battles; 0.7 if you make 70k, 1 if you make 100k, 2 if you make 200k, 3 if you make 300k, and 4 if you make 400k.
If you sell the LP stuff for 2x the price of the ISK version, you'd make 195,675 ISK per winning match at Lv10 standings, which isn't that great compared to public battle rewards. |
The-Errorist
Closed For Business For All Mankind
429
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Posted - 2013.12.29 06:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
I don't see FW being more profitable than public contracts unless something changes. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7666
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Posted - 2013.12.29 23:21:00 -
[26] - Quote
The-Errorist wrote:I don't see FW being more profitable than public contracts unless something changes. Agreed
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7691
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Posted - 2013.12.30 23:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
FW should be more challenge, but higher rewards.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7720
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Posted - 2014.01.02 15:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Any more thoughts?
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Munin-Frey
Fish Spotters Inc.
77
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Posted - 2014.01.02 15:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Are you an accountant? Just kidding, good analysis. +1 |
Rozencrutz89
From The Mist
18
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Posted - 2014.01.02 15:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Honestly it is kinda annoying that they turned FW into an ISK sink more than anything, the lack of ISK rewards in it make no sense. EVE missions rewarded you with LP for the corp/faction you did it for as well as ISK, why can't we do that.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Rozencrutz89 Dust Vids
http://rozencrutz89.blogspot.com/ Blog on FW Matches
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