DUST Search - Good job with the combat rifle CCP

Crimson Cerberes wrote:

THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote:

that pressing the trigger 6.6 times a second is inbetween each burst, to achieve a full auto variant, to do that right is basically impossible, if you want a real DPS you're gonna have to use a stopwatch to get your average RPS, Honestly to me it seems like people put in 3 bursts a second, which would be less than half, putting it well below the other full auto ARs average 500dps w/out prof & dmg mods for either.

Actually 3 clicks per second is incredibly slow, and I am sure you can achieve at least 5 per second. Using your 3 per second figure means that the imperial SCR is at max (skills,dmg mods) doing 360 DPS and would never overheat, a rfile no one could ever consider overpowered.

Izlare Lenix wrote:

Strictly talking base stats, no skills, a basic combat rifle can do 640 dps if you can click the trigger 6.6 times a second. Most people can not do that constantly while maintaining accuracy of the weapon. And every time you miss that is 3 rounds not applied to your target. To empty the clip at that ROF would require 18 trigger pulls in under 3 seconds. Some people may be able to do that, but not every time. An automatic weapon always gives you the same ROF, a single shoot weapon does not.

Also to henchmen:

Basic Stats(basic variant no skills no damage mods with pulling the trigger 6.6 times per second):
AR: 425 DPS
CR: 640 DPS
SCR: 475.2 DPS
RR: 423 DPS

Can you spot the outlying rifle? I'll give you a hint, it is the one doing 33% more damage than the rest of the weapons.

I am not sure if you two actually realize how slow 3 trigger pulls per second actually is. This means over a 10 second period, you could only pull the trigger 30 times. Like I said earlier, go to this website and check how fast you can click per second.

OF course this is academic, you balance around what is the maximum output of any weapon, not what you deem to be typical usage. If you don't you get people using turbo controllers or whatever that completely breaks the game. Case in point:

Using a turbo controller a base (no skilss or mods) SCR can do like 850 DPS. This gives some people a HUGE advantage (of course the rifle overheats in 1.5 seconds). Honestly that should be nerfed down to 400 RPM like that TAC AR was.

So why did CCP shoose 400 RPM? It is because that is what is achievable for at least most people in click per second (6.6 clicks per second)

TLDR: CR does 33% more damage than the rest of the rifles any way you slice it.

Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.

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Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5960	Posted - 2013.12.20 23:45:00 - [61] - Quote Aaaannnnd now comes the nerf CR threads. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention 879	Posted - 2013.12.20 23:50:00 - [62] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote: that pressing the trigger 6.6 times a second is inbetween each burst, to achieve a full auto variant, to do that right is basically impossible, if you want a real DPS you're gonna have to use a stopwatch to get your average RPS, Honestly to me it seems like people put in 3 bursts a second, which would be less than half, putting it well below the other full auto ARs average 500dps w/out prof & dmg mods for either. Actually 3 clicks per second is incredibly slow, and I am sure you can achieve at least 5 per second. Using your 3 per second figure means that the imperial SCR is at max (skills,dmg mods) doing 360 DPS and would never overheat, a rfile no one could ever consider overpowered. Izlare Lenix wrote: Strictly talking base stats, no skills, a basic combat rifle can do 640 dps if you can click the trigger 6.6 times a second. Most people can not do that constantly while maintaining accuracy of the weapon. And every time you miss that is 3 rounds not applied to your target. To empty the clip at that ROF would require 18 trigger pulls in under 3 seconds. Some people may be able to do that, but not every time. An automatic weapon always gives you the same ROF, a single shoot weapon does not. Also to henchmen: Basic Stats(basic variant no skills no damage mods with pulling the trigger 6.6 times per second): AR: 425 DPS CR: 640 DPS SCR: 475.2 DPS RR: 423 DPS Can you spot the outlying rifle? I'll give you a hint, it is the one doing 33% more damage than the rest of the weapons. I am not sure if you two actually realize how slow 3 trigger pulls per second actually is. This means over a 10 second period, you could only pull the trigger 30 times. Like I said earlier, go to this website and check how fast you can click per second. OF course this is academic, you balance around what is the maximum output of any weapon, not what you deem to be typical usage. If you don't you get people using turbo controllers or whatever that completely breaks the game. Case in point: Using a turbo controller a base (no skilss or mods) SCR can do like 850 DPS. This gives some people a HUGE advantage (of course the rifle overheats in 1.5 seconds). Honestly that should be nerfed down to 400 RPM like that TAC AR was. So why did CCP shoose 400 RPM? It is because that is what is achievable for at least most people in click per second (6.6 clicks per second) TLDR: CR does 33% more damage than the rest of the rifles any way you slice it. I tested that website, I got 4.5 3-5 clicks per second is average. Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic 404	Posted - 2013.12.20 23:59:00 - [63] - Quote lee corwood wrote: We keep talking about how all the new rifles are all OP over each other. Yet no one seems to care that there are over 10+ other weapons in this game that don't seem to f@#king matter Nobody cares about these weapons anymore, even CCP. Unless one of them becomes OP then comes the Nerf hammer to put them into oblivion. But if any of the ARs become OP they just let it go as long as the other ARs compete.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 2362	Posted - 2013.12.21 00:04:00 - [64] - Quote :D Suck it armor tankers. -Shield Tankers I have to deal with the ridiculous scrambler rifle. You can deal with my low damage high ROF bullet hose. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Horizen Kenpachi Kenpachi's Castle 48	Posted - 2013.12.21 00:19:00 - [65] - Quote Pr0phetzReck0ning wrote: X-eon wrote: If that's the case, the damage should be dropped a point or three for the assault variant since it's rof is so high The Assault CR does less damage than the Assault SMG... It does about 22 dmg. It doesnt need an even further damage reduction. What are there rates of fire Hit me with your nerf bat.
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 220	Posted - 2013.12.21 00:20:00 - [66] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: Basic Stats(basic variant no skills no damage mods with pulling the trigger 6.6 times per second): AR: 425 DPS CR: 640 DPS SCR: 475.2 DPS RR: 423 DPS Can you spot the outlying rifle? I'll give you a hint, it is the one doing 33% more damage than the rest of the weapons. snip TLDR: CR does 33% more damage than the rest of the rifles any way you slice it. TL;DR - decrease CR rof to 900, should not affect feel of this weapon. Increase it, and ACR pg by two points. Increase ACR ammo pool by 1 clip. One dimensional analysis can be rather mis-leading. Lets look at all of the new weapons with a few more stats to get a better picture of how things are balanced. These are the stats i'm getting. If the weapon is semi-auto (SCR/CR) then i used a rof of 6.6 times per second. For the fully automatic weapons i'm using their full dps since you just hold down the trigger. * denotes the semi-automatic weapons. I'm also going to preface this by stating upfront that I am using the ACR as my primary weapon, switching to CR on occasion. Just to make it clear where my bias lies. Weapon - DPS - Clip Size(Damage per clip) - Damage per loadout - Fitting score (PG5 + CPU) AR - 468 - 60(2082) - 11220 - 155 TAR - 524 - 18(1414) - 23562 - 155 CR - 697 - 54(1900.8) - 11405 - 121 ACR - 464 - 68(1577.6) - 9466 - 118 SCR - 523 - 45(3564) - 17820 - 192 ASCR - 466 - 72(2851) - 12870 - 158 RR - 465 - 42(2541) - 15246 - 169 ARR - 472 - 42(1981) - 11892 - 147 DPS So looking at all these numbers we can see that compared to the other semi-auto weapons the CR is outperforming. Its rate of fire needs to be lowered down to about 900 to bring it into line. Both of the new rail rifles, along with the ACR look to be in good shape dps wise. Now, how about the rest of the stats. Damage per clip, damage per loadout, and fitting. There is a lot of give and take to be had here for a weapon to be considered balanced. Looking at these values I think there are two changes I would suggest to ccp. The first would be a bump to the ACR's ammo pool. If they are going to change the Minmatar suit bonus to be +5% projectile clip size (like i am expecting) then the ACR will be in a good spot. The second would be to increase the fitting costs of the CR and ARC slightly. I think a couple points to pg would be spot on. The racial goal of having cheap fitting would be achieved, while not being slightly to cheap (imo). Overall, for new weapons, and given CCP's track record, I think they did a marvelous job with the initial balance of these weapons. EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 1103	Posted - 2013.12.21 00:29:00 - [67] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: You realize in order to get that magical 640 dps, you have to pull the trigger 6.6 times a second. Most humans can not do that. Especially for a prolonged period of time. I can click a mouse 8 times a second. I use a DS3, but I don't think my DPS is so far off from the cap. CR on a standard Heavy with 2 reps and a damage mod is my favourite suit atm. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4841	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:32:00 - [68] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: :D Suck it armor tankers. -Shield Tankers I have to deal with the ridiculous scrambler rifle. You can deal with my low damage high ROF bullet hose. Uhh... It has -5% to shields instead of -10%, it's practically an anti shield weapon too. It's your problem too. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
8213 BIG BAD W0LVES 1161	Posted - 2013.12.21 08:54:00 - [69] - Quote With something like the CR, why would anyone use the AR ever again?
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4841	Posted - 2013.12.21 09:03:00 - [70] - Quote 8213 wrote: With something like the CR, why would anyone use the AR ever again? ^ CCP went ultimate troll against the AR nerf brigade and "nerfed" the AR by bringing in even more powerful assault rifles :P Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos

Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 387	Posted - 2013.12.21 09:08:00 - [71] - Quote Because a gar has 60 shots a clip, and can kill 2-4 adv suits reliably. My BOUNDLESS cr with prof1 and 2 damage mods needs to reload after every kill, maybe every other if i land headshots. With almost all headshots i can down a heavy-using the full clip save 3-12 rounds. It reloads fast, so guess what? We have an Ammo-consuming DPS hose that sprays people with spitwads until they drop. (Minmatar philosophy) low damage per shot, moderately low range, SUPER HIGH DPS, and focus on Burst damage. Working as intended? Working as intended. Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) I have a God, His name is Dakka.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4841	Posted - 2013.12.21 10:22:00 - [72] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Because a gar has 60 shots a clip, and can kill 2-4 adv suits reliably. My BOUNDLESS cr with prof1 and 2 damage mods needs to reload after every kill, maybe every other if i land headshots. With almost all headshots i can down a heavy-using the full clip save 3-12 rounds. It reloads fast, so guess what? We have an Ammo-consuming DPS hose that sprays people with spitwads until they drop. (Minmatar philosophy) low damage per shot, moderately low range, SUPER HIGH DPS, and focus on Burst damage. Working as intended? Working as intended. 32 damage vs 34 damage per bullet. Seems legit Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 854	Posted - 2013.12.21 23:19:00 - [73] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: 1) In order to stutter the fire pattern of a CR(assuming this actually happens), you must be mashing the button faster than 6.6667 times per second, something you and your counter-parts deem unlikely. 2) I can unload the entire clip in 3 seconds, that means a DPS of 634 base. I have seen this happen many, many times. 3) that is the lvl 5 prof 5 3 dmg mod SCR (actually you can fire 11.75 times per second for 1320 DPS for 1.5secs and then 5 seconds of being defensless) 4) hitting with rounds applies to all weapons, not just the SCR. We are arguing damage potential. I could miss with all of the rounds of an AR or SCR and that is 0 DPS plus being defenseless on overheat for 5 seconds, doesn't change the amount of damage I can do with it. 5) Most people believe hip-fire for the SCR has been nerfed in 1.7 In the end though, the CR does 143% more DPS than an AR while having more range, nothing you say changes that. BOTH the SCR and the CR need a RoF nerf. 1) I never said any such thing. And stuttering the pattern means hitting the button too quickly, nullifying your next burst until you can let off of the trigger and pull it again. Not an actual in-game mechanic of stuttering it. 2) Yeah, because you totally have a timer counting just how fast it takes you to empty a clip, and it happens to be exactly 3 seconds. Video with proof + proof of no turbo controller, or it didn't happen. 3) 1320 in 1.5 seconds if you don't use your charged shot first, which is what almost every ScR user starts off a gun fight doing. How much does a charged shot do again with your math applied? Also, insane headshot bonus. Just sayin' 4) Hitting with rounds on the CR requires a lot more player tracking. You let off the trigger when your crosshair crosses the enemy with the ScR, you have to follow your target with the CR to make sure every round hits. Was pointing this out because pure DPM is not makes a weapon better, otherwise everyone in the game would be running around with assault forge guns. A lot of factors come into play when balancing one weapon with another. (such as the aforementioned headshot bonus and charged shot) 5) Most people are stupid. I recall back in Chromosome for like a month almost everyone in the game had thought that logis and assaults had gotten a strafe speed increase when the devs gave one to the scouts. Until the Dev's got on the forums and told them they were nuts and they had only improved the framerate a bit and tweaked the logi hit-box, assaults being entirely unaffected. Point is you can't suggest something happened off of popular forum opinion. Now, as for that last statement, I'll say it again. *The DPS of a weapon is not what makes it good.* The DPS is an important factor, but so is accuracy, the level of challenge with the aim, the amount of tracking required, recoil, dispersion, damage dropoff, etc., etc., etc.. Changing the DPS of one or two weapons won't bring them in line with other weapons which is what is needed for balanced TTK, and balancing the other AR's against eachother will NOT fix all of the other weapons in this game, nor fix the TTK. As for what I think should happen, I'll just quote myself from a few days ago: Baal Omniscient wrote: ......all of the weapons in this game and most of the fits (probably even scouts) would be perfectly balanced if the proficiency damage increase and damage mods were removed. 1 complex mod plus proficiency 5 is a 25% damage increase to a weapon. Want balance? Reduce the range and ammo carry capacities of all weapons, replace damage mods with weapon range amplifiers and ammo capacity upgrades, and change proficiency to something unique to each weapon instead of a flat damage buff. Even if you just made the damage buff work for the weapon's strength instead of a flat overall damage increase it would be worth it (i.e. SMG's & combat rifles get a buff to armor damage per proficiency level, ScR's and lasers get a buff to shield damage per proficiency level)...... The higher a weapon's DPS, the bigger the buff it gets from proficiency and damage mods. This would cut down the DPS of all weapons, however more than just that it would bring the higher DPS weapons down closer to the level of other weapons. In addition to that, it would make choosing whether to go for armor or shields much more important. You'd also have to choose whether you want to carry more ammo, have better range, have more HP, passive scan people within your scan radius, or have a larger scan radius. The low slots already have many options, high slots will finally have viable options. If you couple this with fixing passive scanner modules (if you make them viable you also make range amplifiers viable, this giving you 5 viable high slot modules [shields, scan range amps, passive scan precision amps, ammo amps & range amps]) and a few other tweaks here and there, this game could be balanced for every weapon in the game instead of just for the AR's. Not to mention 10x more diverse in fitting options. It would also make dampners far more important with people passive scanning without giving "YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED" messages. Ulthane: Now get off of my property, 'fore more pigeons come looking an' crap on me yard! Overlord's: Ulath Bosse Zero


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