Isn't that the point, whoever has the most SP should win unless they are retarted and cant shoot.

I heard from a lot of people that ammunition in vehicles would lead to, "more meaningful tank vs tank combat." And now it all boils down to who has the most SP.

Did you max out the skill that increases active module duration by 5% per level? Even though that redtank over there is better at this game than you, and has fitted his tank exactly the same as you, he has only gotten that skill to 3, so his active module will last less time, and you will be able to kill him once his mods run out, and yours are still going. If you both survive the encounter and run away from one another, did you max the skill that reduces active module cooldown by 5%? If so, that redtank only got that skill to 3 as well, so now you can chase after him with all your mods up before his have cooled off. Do both of you run out of ammo in your blaster clips? No problem, you maxed the skill that lets you reload 25% faster, and that redtank didn't have enough SP to even start that skill yet.

I know what many of you are thinking: "But infantry have skills that are very similar, and maxing those out only give you a slight advantage, not an instant Iwin button."

Here lies the problem: TTK. With infantry, TTK is low and reloading faster means nothing if the guy you got into a firefight with is dead before you even empty half your clip. In tanks, where it is nearly impossible to kill a Gunnlogi that has a hardener active in a single blaster magazine, TTK is very high. Now, reloading suddenly becomes VERY important. When your combat is focused around the fact that you must be using active modules, skills that increase that duration literally make your character straight-up more powerful than a character that doesn't have that skill. Not slightly better, but significantly greater in power. What we had before was unbalanced, but this is just a completely different realm from any sort of idea of "balance." The guy with the bigger stick is the one that walks away, the other guy dies. Doesn't matter how l33t your fps skills are, your modules will not last as long as his modules, so now you're screwed.

/rant

Isn't that the point, whoever has the most SP should win unless they are retarted and cant shoot.

Message from Godin: Just like it is in EVE. Whoever has the best skills, the best gear, and the best tactic, or a combo of the three (or one of them being skewed ridiculously in your favor) wins. Get over it. Welcome to new Eden. It's about to make you it's *****

Isn't that the point, whoever has the most SP should win unless they are retarted and cant shoot.

It was always going to come down to who had the most SP, man. You can't penalize someone for being around longer and having more time put in. One guy having a better fit than another guy is the circle of life. I've lost quite a few tanks tonight, which I blame mostly on not having max level reload speed, but I'm having the most fun I've ever had in this game. Having a goal to work towards will keep me playing longer.

Best skills? I'm pretty sure I highlighted in my example that the guy with less SP had the better skills, and the same exact gear, so the guy with more SP wins, even though the other guy has more skill.

Oh, yeah, you are one of those vet tankers, so obviously you don't like the idea of giving newer players a fighting chance.

And that's where better gear comes from.
You bring the counter to his gear, no amount of SP will save him.

*In a moment of clarity*

I suppose that no one really cares tho.....the only tankers left are vets, and they all have plenty SP to max all their skills. And AV'ers could care less about HAV vs HAV combat, they just want more powerful weaponry.

So in short, as I am the only tanker that has less than four million SP total, I am the only one that has this issue, and blatant imbalance is unimportant.

Problem is that even if you are "retarted" and can't shoot, then you will still win if you have a gross SP advantage.

It is a bit unfortunate that currently Vehicle versus Vehicle combat is so heavily skewed SP wise. Dropsuit VS Dropsuit you still have a very viable chance even in the crap starting suits, and a deadly ADV level suit is still not a bajillion SP away.

I'm still waiting for a few more weeks before casting a firm opinion though on things.

I got destroyed in a single clip from a missile turret earlier today in my Maddy. I came back with a Gunnlogi and still got killed because my hardeners ran out before his did, and he burst my health down. I would consider shields to be a counter to missiles.

It is a bit unfortunate that currently Vehicle versus Vehicle combat is so heavily skewed SP wise. Dropsuit VS Dropsuit you still have a very viable chance even in the crap starting suits, and a deadly ADV level suit is still not a bajillion SP away.

I'm still waiting for a few more weeks before casting a firm opinion though on things.

Oh get off it. You know you're just bullshitting even as you type that.

I've watched Sicas survive entire teams of AV today while Madrugars drop in two shots or less. Player skill will always win out when you get enough practice.

I took a Maddy with two STD reps and one STD hardener and stood stock-still shooting at two forge gunners and a swarm launcher while they launched everything they could at me. Never even got below 2k armor. Do you call that skill?

And, last time I checked this wasn't a discussion about AV vs HAVs, it's HAVs vs HAVs, but since you didn't grasp that concept, I can assume that you read my title and came here to rage without a clue what you were talking about. Maybe you are the one that should, "come off it."

I took a Maddy with two STD reps and one STD hardener and stood stock-still shooting at two forge gunners and a swarm launcher while they launched everything they could at me. Never even got below 2k armor. Do you call that skill?

And, last time I checked this wasn't a discussion about AV vs HAVs, it's HAVs vs HAVs, but since you didn't grasp that concept, I can assume that you read my title and came here to rage without a clue what you were talking about. Maybe you are the one that should, "come off it."

Why can't my LAV catch tanks...

It sounds like to me AV is doing its job if there were a tank on the field with you you'd be annihilated. Everyone has their roles to play on the field I placed 10 Proxy mines on the field and waited and a HAV blew up I laid 10 more and another HAV blew up. Do you call that skill. This is a team based game and assuming you took your HAV without any small turrets you assumed you could Solo a tanker with more SP than you?

Best skills? I'm pretty sure I highlighted in my example that the guy with less SP had the better skills, and the same exact gear, so the guy with more SP wins, even though the other guy has more skill.

Oh, yeah, you are one of those vet tankers, so obviously you don't like the idea of giving newer players a fighting chance.

Best skills meaning in-game bought with SP skills, not best skills as in the best tactics to use in the situation (as defined by the term "best tactic")

The player with the best SKILLS as defined by the in-game term "skills" has an advantage.
The player with the best gear has an advantage.
The player using the best tactic has an advantage.

I heard from a lot of people that ammunition in vehicles would lead to, "more meaningful tank vs tank combat." And now it all boils down to who has the most SP.

Did you max out the skill that increases active module duration by 5% per level? Even though that redtank over there is better at this game than you, and has fitted his tank exactly the same as you, he has only gotten that skill to 3, so his active module will last less time, and you will be able to kill him once his mods run out, and yours are still going. If you both survive the encounter and run away from one another, did you max the skill that reduces active module cooldown by 5%? If so, that redtank only got that skill to 3 as well, so now you can chase after him with all your mods up before his have cooled off. Do both of you run out of ammo in your blaster clips? No problem, you maxed the skill that lets you reload 25% faster, and that redtank didn't have enough SP to even start that skill yet.

I know what many of you are thinking: "But infantry have skills that are very similar, and maxing those out only give you a slight advantage, not an instant Iwin button."

Here lies the problem: TTK. With infantry, TTK is low and reloading faster means nothing if the guy you got into a firefight with is dead before you even empty half your clip. In tanks, where it is nearly impossible to kill a Gunnlogi that has a hardener active in a single blaster magazine, TTK is very high. Now, reloading suddenly becomes VERY important. When your combat is focused around the fact that you must be using active modules, skills that increase that duration literally make your character straight-up more powerful than a character that doesn't have that skill. Not slightly better, but significantly greater in power. What we had before was unbalanced, but this is just a completely different realm from any sort of idea of "balance." The guy with the bigger stick is the one that walks away, the other guy dies. Doesn't matter how l33t your fps skills are, your modules will not last as long as his modules, so now you're screwed.

/rant

Your argument isn't even sort of making sense anymore. So you are saying that ineffectually shooting at my god-tank is the job of AV? Getting back to the topic of HAV vs HAV, you also think that I am somehow supposed to know that the other tank has more SP than me? How would I know that? STD vs PRO modules don't actually show a visible difference, seeing as how they simply have lower CDs. His tank didn't say: this guy has way more SP than you, all it said was: Gunnlogi.

Tanks were fine pre 1.7. Good tankers still dominated battlefields. They were a specialty class all onto themselves. Now anyone can use a tank and dominate with it. They've dumbed it down.

Tanks are now in the same family as ARs: skilless noob gear...

Message from Godin: Just like it is in EVE. Whoever has the best skills, the best gear, and the best tactic, or a combo of the three (or one of them being skewed ridiculously in your favor) wins. Get over it. Welcome to new Eden. It's about to make you it's *****

I heard from a lot of people that ammunition in vehicles would lead to, "more meaningful tank vs tank combat." And now it all boils down to who has the most SP.

Did you max out the skill that increases active module duration by 5% per level? Even though that redtank over there is better at this game than you, and has fitted his tank exactly the same as you, he has only gotten that skill to 3, so his active module will last less time, and you will be able to kill him once his mods run out, and yours are still going. If you both survive the encounter and run away from one another, did you max the skill that reduces active module cooldown by 5%? If so, that redtank only got that skill to 3 as well, so now you can chase after him with all your mods up before his have cooled off. Do both of you run out of ammo in your blaster clips? No problem, you maxed the skill that lets you reload 25% faster, and that redtank didn't have enough SP to even start that skill yet.

I know what many of you are thinking: "But infantry have skills that are very similar, and maxing those out only give you a slight advantage, not an instant Iwin button."

Here lies the problem: TTK. With infantry, TTK is low and reloading faster means nothing if the guy you got into a firefight with is dead before you even empty half your clip. In tanks, where it is nearly impossible to kill a Gunnlogi that has a hardener active in a single blaster magazine, TTK is very high. Now, reloading suddenly becomes VERY important. When your combat is focused around the fact that you must be using active modules, skills that increase that duration literally make your character straight-up more powerful than a character that doesn't have that skill. Not slightly better, but significantly greater in power. What we had before was unbalanced, but this is just a completely different realm from any sort of idea of "balance." The guy with the bigger stick is the one that walks away, the other guy dies. Doesn't matter how l33t your fps skills are, your modules will not last as long as his modules, so now you're screwed.

/rant

Actually, it's not such a major increase, it's worthwhile sure, but for example..

You have the two skills, Core Grid Management increases the recharge rate for your active modules by 5% per level, so a little faster and Engine Core Calibration increase the duration of your active modules by 5% per level

Let's look at a Complex Shield Hardener, it has a active duration of 24 seconds and a cooldown of 60 seconds

Level 0
AD: 24 - CD: 60

Level 1
AD: 25.2 - CD: 57

Level 2
AD: 26.4 - CD: 54

Level 3
AD: 27.6 - CD: 51

Level 4
AD: 28.8 - CD: 48

Level 5
AD: 30 - CD: 45

So sure, you shave off 15 seconds from the cooldown and you get a full extra 6 seconds if the skills are maxed, the vet has a slight advantage and can maintain the fight a little longer, but if the lower SP player is smart he knows he needs to activate his modules AFTER the enemy, to make sure he survives and his enemy doesnt..

(Forgive me if any numbers are wrong, I've got the flu, am dying and I've been tanking all night)