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Mia Romani
Nexus Marines
51
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Posted - 2013.11.24 00:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
So the discussion has been raging for weeks now, and so far the scope of the discussion has almost entirely been "I'm being ripped off!"... And yeah, maybe you are, maybe you aren't... But this thread is about something else.
Let me begin with the seemingly innocent root cause: Players who die while using BPO gear still generate full end-of-match ISK payouts each time they die.
No big deal, right? Well let's look at some of the other pieces in play here, and let's see if you too will share in my fridge horror moment:
- Players in full proto gear have better stats than players in full BPO gear.
- Players in full BPO gear are not punished for dying, and so are more likely to take risks.
So let's review here: Proto-stompers find it relatively easy to kill BPO-users, and BPO-users don't mind dying. Each time a proto-stomper dies, the ISK that was spent on that suit is added to the end of match payout pool, redistributing the ISK that was spent. Each time a proto-stomper kills a BPO user, some free ISK is generated out of thin air, and injected into that same end of match payout pool.
And thus we discover the real evil of "proto-stomping": These players who are going 20-0 against players in Militia BPO gear are receiving enormous amounts of free ISK that came from nowhere, while those players who are getting stomped are getting paid relatively little for their troubles.
When the secondary market is introduced, these extremely rich proto-stompers are going to flood the market with their ready supply of ISK, causing prices to increase relative to their ability to spend. And what of the poor BPO-users? Well they're not making a whole lot of ISK to begin with, so all they'll see is a market full of things that are ridiculously over-priced and out of their reach...
While BPO users may indeed have a valid point about not getting what they paid for, they don't seem to realise that what they paid for is a permanent and ongoing disadvantage against the "1%" of Dust players, and that continued BPO use is only going to continue widening the gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots".
Don't believe me? Go watch CEO Pyrex's latest video (here), and listen to how he talks about the value of ISK and proto gear. No, he's not the cause of the problem. It's not his fault that BPO users are continually throwing free ISK at him... But it does illustrate the point. This is already happening, and it's only going to get worse when the secondary market comes in.
Interstellar Crossroads
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Interstellar Murder of Crows
1135
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Posted - 2013.11.24 00:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
An idea occurs!!
I want my BPOs, I want my BPOs to have a Bill of Materials that I can use to manfacture shedloads of the BPO items as tangible, quantifiable items rater than "poof! yay free stuffz!!!"
Give BPOs a Bill of Materials and let us gouge the market.
Problem solved (I know, it is fairly obvious when you think about it)
Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives
Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten
Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
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Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
2271
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Posted - 2013.11.24 00:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Even if BPOs actually damaged the balance of the game, it still would not be acceptable to forcibly remove irreplaceable, purchased items from players.
The future of the game also depends upon people actually being willing to spend money on it too. After finding out that there is no guarantee on anything I purchase with aurum, the currency has lost much of its value to me.
No.
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
363
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Posted - 2013.11.24 00:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
TL;DR
"Do BPO defenders even care about the long-term health of this game?"
I imagine that they care that they were lied to and subsequently swindled out of their money.
{:)}{3GÇó>
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xLuca Brasi
DUST University
Ivy League
71
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Posted - 2013.11.24 00:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
Do BPO defenders even care about the long-term health of this game?
answer: yes
I don't believe bpo's effect the game.
theres no proof they do.
PC effects the isk in this game more than bpo's do
PC is broken and people have made billions using broken mechanics....
why aren't they removing PC, which is a bigger game breaker than bpo's?
SAY NO TO BPO REMOVALS!
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
560
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Posted - 2013.11.24 00:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
guy uses full bpo suit... isk equivalent is about 10-15k
guy in full aurum proto gear.. isk equivalent about 100k+
guy in bpo set dies 10 times losing the eve economy 150k isk at best
guy in full aurum proto gear dies 10 times losing the eve economy 1million isk+
now you tell me which one of these is more devastating to the economy
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Interstellar Murder of Crows
1135
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Posted - 2013.11.24 00:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
xLuca Brasi wrote:Do BPO defenders even care about the long-term health of this game?
answer: yes
I don't believe bpo's effect the game.
theres no proof they do.
PC effects the isk in this game more than bpo's do
PC is broken and people have made billions using broken mechanics....
why aren't they removing PC, which is a bigger game breaker than bpo's?
LOL, yeah, no one paid rl cash for PC, it was broken from the start for free.....
Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives
Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten
Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
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Necandi Brasil
DUST BRASIL S.A
Covert Intervention
472
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Posted - 2013.11.24 00:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Make blueprints for industry... so I can manufacture stuff with it ... don't take it away ...
A DUST BRASIL S.A precisa de você ! Junte-se a nós !
Hey CCP, give me PvE!
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Necandi Brasil
DUST BRASIL S.A
Covert Intervention
472
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Posted - 2013.11.24 00:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
xLuca Brasi wrote:Do BPO defenders even care about the long-term health of this game?
answer: yes
I don't believe bpo's effect the game.
theres no proof they do.
PC effects the isk in this game more than bpo's do
PC is broken and people have made billions using broken mechanics....
why aren't they removing PC, which is a bigger game breaker than bpo's?
agree 1000% with this statement
A DUST BRASIL S.A precisa de você ! Junte-se a nós !
Hey CCP, give me PvE!
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Montezumas Revenge
the majestic space duck
21
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Posted - 2013.11.24 00:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
I bought AUR to buy blueprints. If the blueprints are taken away or never existed, I probably never would have bought AUR.
Sooooo, CCP basically sold me a product that they later changed their mind about. If they're going to remove BPOs, I want a cash refund - I can't think of a need for the AUR or whatever CCP decides to replace the BPOs with. |
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Orca Amsel
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
634
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Posted - 2013.11.24 01:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Montezumas Revenge wrote:I bought AUR to buy blueprints. If the blueprints are taken away or never existed, I probably never would have bought AUR.
Sooooo, CCP basically sold me a product that they later changed their mind about. If they're going to remove BPOs, I want a cash refund - I can't think of a need for the AUR or whatever CCP decides to replace the BPOs with.
Exactly, the bpos are the reason I bought the merc, elite, veteran packs and the eve CE. |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
560
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Posted - 2013.11.24 01:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
i made a suggestion a while back as a compromise about making bpo's not so much a free source of items but a cheap source. considering these are cheap items anyway a small insignificant investment by the person who owns a bpo would be almost insignificant. my suggestion was make bpo's an option on the market. a black market if you will where you buy copies for a significantly lower investment. something like 10-20 of original costs. bpo owners are happy because they keep their bpo's and everyone else is happy because items and isk is being lost. not to mention bpo copied items would end up in loot
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
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Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1358
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Posted - 2013.11.24 01:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Most BPOs are MLT/STD equipment
My most gnarly full BPO suit would only cost about 11,000 ISK
11,000 ISK is easy to justify just running at a squad of reds with a MLT Pistol over, and over, and over again - if that's my schtick for the day.
BPOs will affect the Market much less than Officer Weapon Salvage frequency.
Cheeseburgers.
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ACE OF JOKERS
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
207
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Posted - 2013.11.24 01:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
' Do BPO defenders even care about the long-term health of this game?''
I do. Im a BPO defender. I have mine for collection.
BPO's are NOT competitive at ALL. As it is, playing ADV is the best way for your money, being a lot cheaper than Proto , but being a lot better than STD.
I wont use my SCR BPO if i have money over a ADV SCR or an imperial,considering the Damage difference....ETC...
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
367
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Posted - 2013.11.24 01:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Look here is a proper analogy for the current BPO debacle:
Guy goes into a store and purchases an item, leaves the store and returns home. He sets the item on his bed stand and turns in for the night. Upon waking the next morning, he find the item is gone and in its there sits a letter an a coupon that says "store credit" on it. The letter reads as follows:
I am sorry but we at Swindle Mart have decided to remove the item you purchased last night our inventory and have furth decided that it would not be in our best interest that you continue ownership of the item you purchased. In place of the that we reclaimed while you slept last night, we have issued you a certificate for store credit, equal to the value of the item we reclaimed.
Thankyou.
Upon reading this note, our protagonist becomes infuriated upon realizing that there is ABSOLUTLY nothing else at that swindle mart that he/she is interested in purchasing, and that the store credit is absolutly worthless to him/her. So he gets dressed and goes down to swindle mart to talk to the manager and request a full refund. At this time our protagonist is informed that "swindle mart does not offer refunds only store credit."
Upon learning this, our protagonist starts a one man picket line outside of swindle Mart and is quickly joined by who had just so happened to sleep a little longer that day.
{:)}{3GÇó>
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Viktor Hadah Jr
Critical-Impact
1197
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Posted - 2013.11.24 01:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:xLuca Brasi wrote:Do BPO defenders even care about the long-term health of this game?
answer: yes
I don't believe bpo's effect the game.
theres no proof they do.
PC effects the isk in this game more than bpo's do
PC is broken and people have made billions using broken mechanics....
why aren't they removing PC, which is a bigger game breaker than bpo's? LOL, yeah, no one paid rl cash for PC, it was broken from the start for free.....
They announced at EVE Vegas they are working on PC 2.0...
So they are working on it, and what makes you think someone who pays money should have advantage over the people who are playing for free?
For the Empire
Dual tanking is a sin
BPO's are bad for economy, Respec's are bad for the game. Want to fight about it?
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Badonk Adonk
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2013.11.24 01:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ccp proved themselves unstrustworthy at the end of closed beta, why the hell would you give these people more money? Have ccpee done anything in the last 6 months to justify getting paid to develop this trash?
Got milk? |
Mia Romani
Nexus Marines
53
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Posted - 2013.11.24 02:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Upon learning this, our protagonist starts a one man picket line outside of swindle Mart and is quickly joined by others who had just so happened to sleep a little longer that day.
Mia Romani wrote:While BPO users may indeed have a valid point about not getting what they paid for, they don't seem to realise that what they paid for is a permanent and ongoing disadvantage against the "1%" of Dust players, and that continued BPO use is only going to continue widening the gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots".
The item you originally bought was in and of itself a crutch, one that is keeping you poor while making the proto-stompers richer. You're picketing for your right to continue being stomped by far richer players...
Interstellar Crossroads
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xLuca Brasi
DUST University
Ivy League
86
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Posted - 2013.11.24 02:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Badonk Adonk wrote:Ccp proved themselves unstrustworthy at the end of closed beta, why the hell would you give these people more money? Have ccpee done anything in the last 6 months to justify getting paid to develop this trash?
Got milk?
eventually ccp proves themselves untrustworthy to all of us.... for me it took them stealing from me before I lost my faith and loyalty....
I feel so betrayed, and used.
SAY NO TO BPO REMOVALS!
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Arron Rift
Better Hide R Die
200
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Posted - 2013.11.24 02:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Personally, I think BPOs are the only things worth buying in this game. And if they take them all away I'm honestly not sure how CCP will make much money. And if CCP doesn't make much money, this game is shut down regardless of how fun it is...
...So I would say they are actually standing up for what's best for this game :D
Personally, I can vouch for this. I just recently spent $50 on a veteran pack just for the LAV BPO, and I have literally not even spent the other things that came with the pack. My hope is I can get a refund if they take the BPOs out before I even use the pack's consumables. But that does show how much I and other people are willing to spend in real money to assure a low low in-game cost of free :D |
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Interstellar Murder of Crows
1138
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Posted - 2013.11.24 02:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:xLuca Brasi wrote:Do BPO defenders even care about the long-term health of this game?
answer: yes
I don't believe bpo's effect the game.
theres no proof they do.
PC effects the isk in this game more than bpo's do
PC is broken and people have made billions using broken mechanics....
why aren't they removing PC, which is a bigger game breaker than bpo's? LOL, yeah, no one paid rl cash for PC, it was broken from the start for free..... They announced at EVE Vegas they are working on PC 2.0... So they are working on it, and what makes you think someone who pays money should have advantage over the people who are playing for free?
Those of us who've paid money to help support development of Dust have (for all intents and purposes) invested our money to encourage CCP to continue development. We are, in effect, shareholders in Dust rather than freeloaders in the gaming equivalent of a welfare state that is Dust.
Beyond that, if you had read my earlier post, I want BPOs to be a factor in player manufacturing rather than free stuff from thin air. Oh, wait, that would require Dev time for PvE materials gathering, player manufacturing and a player market.
My vision of BPOs is much less of a guaranteed isk faucet than PC has been from day one.
BTW, is PC going to be reset when it gets out of beta, like all of us Closed Beta vets had a forced reset when Dust came out of "beta" or will it be farming business as usual?
Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives
Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten
Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
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XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO XOXOXOXOXOXO
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
562
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Posted - 2013.11.24 02:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
xLuca Brasi wrote:Do BPO defenders even care about the long-term health of this game?
answer: yes
I don't believe bpo's effect the game.
theres no proof they do.
PC effects the isk in this game more than bpo's do
PC is broken and people have made billions using broken mechanics....
why aren't they removing PC, which is a bigger game breaker than bpo's?
try trillions
SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED
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Mia Romani
Nexus Marines
53
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Posted - 2013.11.24 02:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Arron Rift wrote:Personally, I think BPOs are the only things worth buying in this game. And if they take them all away I'm honestly not sure how CCP will make much money. And if CCP doesn't make much money, this game is shut down regardless of how fun it is...
...So I would say they are actually standing up for what's best for this game :D
Once you've bought a BPO, are you likely to buy another one?
MMO games that ask you to pay once only don't tend to survive very long. If a free to play game fails to generate at least $15 per player per month, then it should have used the subscription model instead...
Interstellar Crossroads
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
368
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 02:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mia Romani wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Upon learning this, our protagonist starts a one man picket line outside of swindle Mart and is quickly joined by others who had just so happened to sleep a little longer that day. Mia Romani wrote:While BPO users may indeed have a valid point about not getting what they paid for, they don't seem to realise that what they paid for is a permanent and ongoing disadvantage against the "1%" of Dust players, and that continued BPO use is only going to continue widening the gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots". The item you originally bought was in and of itself a crutch, one that is keeping you poor while making the proto-stompers richer. You're picketing for your right to continue being stomped by far richer players...
Lolwut. No dude, I do just fine with my BPOs. If proto stomps are occurring it is very doubtful that it has anything to with my play style.
{:)}{3GÇó>
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Mia Romani
Nexus Marines
53
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Posted - 2013.11.24 02:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Mia Romani wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Upon learning this, our protagonist starts a one man picket line outside of swindle Mart and is quickly joined by others who had just so happened to sleep a little longer that day. Mia Romani wrote:While BPO users may indeed have a valid point about not getting what they paid for, they don't seem to realise that what they paid for is a permanent and ongoing disadvantage against the "1%" of Dust players, and that continued BPO use is only going to continue widening the gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots". The item you originally bought was in and of itself a crutch, one that is keeping you poor while making the proto-stompers richer. You're picketing for your right to continue being stomped by far richer players... Lolwut. No dude, I do just fine with my BPOs. If proto stomps are occurring it is very doubtful that it has anything to with my play style.
If you aren't dying, then why do you want BPO gear? It is categorically worse than proto gear in every way except cost.
Interstellar Crossroads
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
1309
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 02:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
Please tell me how not restocking 5-10k ISK MLT/STD gear is gamebreaking when 90% of the playerbase has 20m-2B ISK in their wallet?
By the very least, make them BPCs
Check out my corp's new website here :D
-HAND
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Mia Romani
Nexus Marines
53
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Posted - 2013.11.24 02:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Please tell me how not restocking 5-10k ISK MLT/STD gear is gamebreaking when 90% of the playerbase has 20m-2B ISK in their wallet?
By the very least, make them BPCs
How do you think those players got so rich in the first place?
150 clones per match, 10k ISK per clone, that's 1.5 million ISK injected into the economy by every match.
ISK is coming into the economy, and it is not leaving. Of course wallets are going to get fat.
Interstellar Crossroads
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Michael Arck
Anubis Prime Syndicate
1866
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Posted - 2013.11.24 02:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
I don't think BPO users are really concerned about the money that they are not getting as opposed to what the proto players are getting. That's like a employee upset over what his supervisor makes.
People just wanted to keep their stuff and don't like the change. While I can say, "you should not be surprised", it does nothing to change their viewpoint. Even the presentation of the economy opinion will not sway their opinions.
Most of the proto players PC and have generated MUCH ISK from it. They then go to pubs and just have a good time, "flexing the muscle" to those without the wallets or experience. So little boy grows to become a big man and returns to high school to pick on the freshmen. Majority of BPO users are trying to counter this by using the BPOs in way to make bank for possible PC experience and to also hone their abilities with the sticks and stones. So when they gain fire, they know how to be more of a lethal threat on the field. |
ThePrinceOfNigeria
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
256
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Posted - 2013.11.24 02:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
Removal of BPO's is not suddenly going to save this broken game. This game is ****** either way in the long run. You can't make it with just a couple thousand people on a now outdated console. |
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Interstellar Murder of Crows
1139
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 02:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mia Romani wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Mia Romani wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Upon learning this, our protagonist starts a one man picket line outside of swindle Mart and is quickly joined by others who had just so happened to sleep a little longer that day. Mia Romani wrote:While BPO users may indeed have a valid point about not getting what they paid for, they don't seem to realise that what they paid for is a permanent and ongoing disadvantage against the "1%" of Dust players, and that continued BPO use is only going to continue widening the gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots". The item you originally bought was in and of itself a crutch, one that is keeping you poor while making the proto-stompers richer. You're picketing for your right to continue being stomped by far richer players... Lolwut. No dude, I do just fine with my BPOs. If proto stomps are occurring it is very doubtful that it has anything to with my play style. If you aren't dying, then why do you want BPO gear? It is categorically worse than proto gear in every way except cost.
PC farmers farm ISK by gaming broken mechanics, BPO owners are just farming ISK through a different means.
BPO owners paid for the right to farm ISK, PC farmers are simply exploiting poorly thought through mechanics (at least, I hope they were poorly thought through instead of working as intended)
Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives
Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten
Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
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