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Reduce 1.7 vehicle SP sink!

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Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 60	Posted - 2013.11.20 00:25:00 - [1] - Quote CCP needs to lower the SP cost for the proposed vehicle changes in 1.7, as it stands right now vehicles in general with be massive SP sinks that offer very limited diversity of game play. Here is the 1.7 infantry vs vehicle math for you. Gallente Logi with max skills Core: 7,773,000 (Armor plate/repair/upgrades, electronics/engineering) Suit: 2,785,830 Weapon: 8,083,920 (Light weapon, handheld up, AR Op/Pro/Ammo/Reload/Sharpshooter/Fitting) Equipment: 3,731,040 (uplinks, nanotech, active scanner, repair tool) Total: 22,373,790 SP Here you have a wide diversity of play available and ammo is little concern because nanohives and supply depots both give ammo. Also the supply depot is large enough it provides cover while changing fittings and/or resupplying. If you want to change up your play style you can easily skill into different weapons. Gallente Incubus with max skills Core: 9,327,600 (Armor Up/Comp/Repair/Fitting, vehicle core/electronics/engineering, Engine Core/Grid Manage) Turret: 10,571,280 (Small Op, railgun op/ammo/reload/pro/fitting/heat dissipation, turret upgrades, damage amp fitting) Assault Dropship: 5,907,480 (Vehicle command, dropship op/assault/gallente assault) Total: 25,806,360 SP Here my play style is extremely limited as I only have 1 option, attack from above and using different turrets provides little difference (against good AV blasters are useless and missiles are good, railguns are supposed to be good vs vehicles in 1.7 but we will see). Also my ISK cost is likely that of a proto suit x2 or x3 depending on my fitting. CCP, this a an unreasonable SP cost for vehicles. On some maps a single forge gunner can deny me the entire map, thus preventing from playing. My 26M SP is now worthless. An infantry suit is far more adaptive and flexible both with weapons and function, the gallente logi suit can earn WP by scanning, repping, reviving, and putting down uplinks as well as killing other players with a multitude of different weapons. In my assault dropship I have only one real method of earning WP (killing) and I can easily shut out of a match be a few dedicated AV players. A single forge gunner on Line Harvest on the table top in the middle can cover every meaningful point on the map for an dropship. The dropship is a niche weapon, like the laser rifle. It is not good in all cases and therefore you want other options incase using it on a certain map is not a good idea. Having it cost this much SP with zero flexibility is like have a dedicated sniper with 26M SP and can do nothing else other than snipe.
BobThe 844-1 CakeMan Murder Cakes Of Doom 1190	Posted - 2013.11.20 00:30:00 - [2] - Quote i'm hoping for full respec so i can put all points into it, but i doubt it and i will prob only get 10 mil sp if they do vehicle only. which makes me sad. :( Tank driver. 10 mil SP in tanks 8 mil into infantry. Msg my main BobThe843CakeMan I ring for everyone. :D
Nguruthos IX PEN 15 CLUB 2254	Posted - 2013.11.20 01:10:00 - [3] - Quote jesus christ that is ridiculous. Thank god there's better games coming out. Hidden vehicle nerfs in the numbers, SP costs like those are ****ing insane. and you get less for it less slots less variety less options out of everything.
Vell0cet Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 567	Posted - 2013.11.20 01:22:00 - [4] - Quote The SP sinks make sense to me. This game is designed to be around for many years. At the current pace, people would exhaust their options too quickly. The idea is that you can't ever have everything (by design). Completely maxing out the vehicle tree should take years of SP. Look at EVE, the system works well. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
Patrick57 GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 1561	Posted - 2013.11.20 01:40:00 - [5] - Quote Who uses small railguns? Lol ö/\ö :D
Heathen Bastard The Bastard Brigade 691	Posted - 2013.11.20 01:43:00 - [6] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: The SP sinks make sense to me. This game is designed to be around for many years. At the current pace, people would exhaust their options too quickly. The idea is that you can't ever have everything (by design). Completely maxing out the vehicle tree should take years of SP. Look at EVE, the system works well. in eve there are multiple ways to play a given ship. in this there is "kill things or do literally nothing else because killing is all you will ever get points for." the SP sink would be worth it if vehicles were killing machines, or if there were secondary things you could do to earn WP. but right now, you can only kill(or drop off people to kill other people, only if you're a dropship). and vehicles are inferior for that purpose in 1.7. -overall, weaker vehicles. -limited ammo -can only restock ammo at specific points on map(good luck after the first 5 minutes of the game) or by recalling the vehicle -having a team is actually a negative for a vehicle player. If you hear the words "WORTH IT!" look about, something hilarious just happened.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1867	Posted - 2013.11.20 01:55:00 - [7] - Quote Why does everyone think they need every skill maxed to perform in a role. That last skill level costs as much as the first 4 put together. Unless they unlock something best to stop at 3 or 4 and spend those SP on providing yourself a new capability. For 20 mil SP you could have a very strong Infantry suit and vehicle. // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Pilot // https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 788	Posted - 2013.11.20 02:20:00 - [8] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Who uses small railguns? Lol They might actually become viable with the recent changes "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 892	Posted - 2013.11.20 02:29:00 - [9] - Quote What a laugh. EVE required 9 years* to max out. That is the basic thinking from CCP/Mothership. Get used to it. It is stupid, short sided and detracts from this FPS game for many but it is their way and thus must be the only way. For DUST the plan was seven years. You need to align with the concept of never having enough, always coming against opponents that have double your SP and gear that will crush you like a grape. A rational discussion is not the CCP way, HTFU or die. That is the CCP way. Welcome to DUST. * Recently I was informed that the EVE time required has doubled (although I was unable to find it quickly, your mileage may vary).
CharCharOdell 1585	Posted - 2013.11.20 04:28:00 - [10] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: The SP sinks make sense to me. This game is designed to be around for many years. At the current pace, people would exhaust their options too quickly. The idea is that you can't ever have everything (by design). Completely maxing out the vehicle tree should take years of SP. Look at EVE, the system works well. that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. they should expand the tree horizontally, not vertically. Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition

CharCharOdell 1585	Posted - 2013.11.20 04:30:00 - [11] - Quote ***, i want a respec. everything is a goddamn SP sink for vehicles when our entire playstyle is denied by one forge gun. it shouldn't take more than 15 to max a tank with 1 turret type. Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition*
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10415	Posted - 2013.11.20 04:35:00 - [12] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: What a laugh. EVE required 9 years* to max out. That is the basic thinking from CCP/Mothership. Get used to it. It is stupid, short sided and detracts from this FPS game for many but it is their way and thus must be the only way. For DUST the plan was seven years. You need to align with the concept of never having enough, always coming against opponents that have double your SP and gear that will crush you like a grape. A rational discussion is not the CCP way, HTFU or die. That is the CCP way. Welcome to DUST. * Recently I was informed that the EVE time required has doubled (although I was unable to find it quickly, your mileage may vary). Actually its 27 years now with min/max attribute plans with +5 implants which work out as oh to say buying omega boosters all the time equivalently. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 100	Posted - 2013.11.20 04:40:00 - [13] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: ****, i want a respec. everything is a goddamn SP sink for vehicles when our entire playstyle is denied by one forge gun. it shouldn't take more than 15 to max a tank with 1 turret type. i only have 11.2 mil sp, needless to say i might go infantry more cuz 10 mil to get std turret with std modules recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 63	Posted - 2013.11.20 04:43:00 - [14] - Quote I don't really care about it taking a long time to max out everything but there should be enough niches that a person can quickly and effectively fill a few roles. CCP should be focusing on creating new roles for us to skill into, not turning the already limited (and barely effective) vehicle roles into massive SP sinks. We need new content, not more skill intensive content that offers very little over what it's supposed to be better than.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 998	Posted - 2013.11.20 04:50:00 - [15] - Quote You have to think of it as an investment however. The Vehicle itself is actually not THAT bad of an SP sink, its the defensive skills. However, since those defensive skills will be applied to all vehicle releases in the future, most of the SP cost is upfront. While this is painful at first, it actually makes things much better in long run. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 65	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:09:00 - [16] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: You have to think of it as an investment however. The Vehicle itself is actually not THAT bad of an SP sink, its the defensive skills. However, since those defensive skills will be applied to all vehicle releases in the future, most of the SP cost is upfront. While this is painful at first, it actually makes things much better in long run. Vehicle core skills are 1.5M SP more than infantry, weapons 2.5M, and specific roles almost 3M. That means it takes me darn near 4 months more to max something out compared to infantry. Then it takes one guy with a forge gun on line harvest to render me completely useless and unable to compete. Vehicles need to be either a low investment niche weapon or a high investment play style that offers several ways to enjoy the game. Right now it's a high investment niche weapon. It's like putting 26M SP into laser rifles then getting stuck on the research lab map fighting underground, you are a determent to the team that is worse than useless.
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 2905	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:18:00 - [17] - Quote This game needs more SP sinks. I have a fully maxed out Gallente Assault with all passive skills maxed out and PG/CPU expanded and reduced from equipment skills maxed out at 5. All I need now is a Gallente Sidearm Pistol and I'll be maxed out. Edit: You know what, I need something to go in my Highslot CCP. I'm a player with 30 mil SP, it's getting pretty boring.
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 102	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:20:00 - [18] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: This game needs more SP sinks. I have a fully maxed out Gallente Assault with all passive skills maxed out and PG/CPU expanded and reduced from equipment skills maxed out at 5. All I need now is a Gallente Sidearm Pistol and I'll be maxed out. Edit: You know what, I need something to go in my Highslot CCP. I'm a player with 30 mil SP, it's getting pretty boring. not eveyone can get 30 mil sp in year recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2434	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:21:00 - [19] - Quote Vehicles appear headed for an endgame role after you attain one or two infantry roles. Unless they become very inexpensive and more maps open up you won't be able to sustain piloting financially at the start of your career. You will definitely need to start with boots on the ground.
Asirius Medaius 662	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:23:00 - [20] - Quote Texs Red wrote: I don't really care about it taking a long time to max out everything but there should be enough niches that a person can quickly and effectively fill a few roles. CCP should be focusing on creating new roles for us to skill into, not turning the already limited (and barely effective) vehicle roles into massive SP sinks. We need new content, not more skill intensive content that offers very little over what it's supposed to be better than. By EVE comparison, it would be like it taking a full year to max out a single T2 frigate from a single race with a T2 fit and skilling into nothing else. Then making the only form of game play null sec PvP and your SP gain is halved if you don't play at least 8 hours a week. It would make for a rather miserable year wouldn't it? As vehicles stand in 1.7 it will ruin vehicle game play for starting players who want to get into vehicles. CharCharODell wrote: that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. they should expand the tree horizontally, not vertically. I completely agree with you guys; It is pissing me off that CCP is re-releasing SP trees with more and more investments in SP required to play the same exact damn roles that we could do before the "update". As someone in here said earlier, I am glad that more options of games are available, and I am furthermore glad about the next shipment of PS4s. I am getting tired of these subtle, yet annoying greedy changes to the game without any real addition of content. "Revamped" SP trees for vehicles with no new vehicles coming out in 1.7? This is getting very old, CCP, and this is coming from someone who actually plays and enjoys EVE Online (for the greater part of 6 years). What is this developer team doing? Signature coming soonGäó. [Level 9 Forum Warrior]

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 999	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:25:00 - [21] - Quote Texs Red wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: You have to think of it as an investment however. The Vehicle itself is actually not THAT bad of an SP sink, its the defensive skills. However, since those defensive skills will be applied to all vehicle releases in the future, most of the SP cost is upfront. While this is painful at first, it actually makes things much better in long run. Vehicle core skills are 1.5M SP more than infantry, weapons 2.5M, and specific roles almost 3M. That means it takes me darn near 4 months more to max something out compared to infantry. Then it takes one guy with a forge gun on line harvest to render me completely useless and unable to compete. Vehicles need to be either a low investment niche weapon or a high investment play style that offers several ways to enjoy the game. Right now it's a high investment niche weapon. It's like putting 26M SP into laser rifles then getting stuck on the research lab map fighting underground, you are a determent to the team that is worse than useless. Well I fully agree that the difference in investment between AV and vehicles is problematic, but I also feel that vehicles should be as intensive as a role as the benefit provides. We need more benefit which is why the vehicle issue needs to be better balanced, but I still feel the SP sink is appropriate. On top of that much of the defenses available for 1.7 vehicles offer the same benefit at level 3 as they do 5, but with more downtime. For example Enhanced Armor Hardeners require level 3 and 2 of them can be cycled for about 90% uptime, where the much more SP expensive level 5 skill gives 100% uptime. Both hardeners reduce the same amount of damage though, so while its not completely optimized, 90% uptime is very viable for much less of an investment. That being said you can still put together a respectable defense for less SP. As in EVE, level 5 is often left untrained initially unless it offers an immediate unlock because the SP cost doubles when training from 1-5 instead of 1-4. Level 5 is generally saved for optimization. So while level 5 does unlock new modules, you can get nearly the same benefit with only level 3 or 4. This effectively cuts the SP cost in half without cutting the benefit in half. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 102	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:27:00 - [22] - Quote Skihids wrote: Vehicles appear headed for an endgame role after you attain one or two infantry roles. Unless they become very inexpensive and more maps open up you won't be able to sustain piloting financially at the start of your career. You will definitely need to start with boots on the ground. i have many roles but the sp sink in too deep recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
Mr m4gic Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:27:00 - [23] - Quote can somebody pls tell me how I remove messages ive posted on ere
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 2905	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:27:00 - [24] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: This game needs more SP sinks. I have a fully maxed out Gallente Assault with all passive skills maxed out and PG/CPU expanded and reduced from equipment skills maxed out at 5. All I need now is a Gallente Sidearm Pistol and I'll be maxed out. Edit: You know what, I need something to go in my Highslot CCP. I'm a player with 30 mil SP, it's getting pretty boring. not eveyone can get 30 mil sp in year That's not the point, The point I failed to get across is that this game needs more content but more content requires more SP sinks. and while vehicles should have a little bit more SP to be invested in them they shouldn't be paper thin and worthless like they are now. Hopefully that changes in 1.7
Nguruthos IX PEN 15 CLUB 2255	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:28:00 - [25] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: ****, i want a respec. everything is a goddamn SP sink for vehicles when our entire playstyle is denied by one forge gun. it shouldn't take more than 15 to max a tank with 1 turret type. This How much SP is it to nullify 30 million SP in vehicles (DS) and millions of ISK? 400k SP and a 10k forge gun? get outta here, what a joke. edit: not even, a bloody militia does the trick. who can defend this desperate attempt to increase playtime sans adding actual content?
Nguruthos IX PEN 15 CLUB 2256	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:31:00 - [26] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: This game needs more SP sinks. I have a fully maxed out Gallente Assault with all passive skills maxed out and PG/CPU expanded and reduced from equipment skills maxed out at 5. All I need now is a Gallente Sidearm Pistol and I'll be maxed out. Edit: You know what, I need something to go in my Highslot CCP. I'm a player with 30 mil SP, it's getting pretty boring. not eveyone can get 30 mil sp in year That's not the point, The point I failed to get across is that this game needs more content but more content requires more SP sinks. and while vehicles should have a little bit more SP to be invested in them they shouldn't be paper thin and worthless like they are now. Hopefully that changes in 1.7 You can see how, as they may add horizontally to the vehicle tree a year from now, the scaling of SP costs will be astronomical. To the point where Ill never tell anyone to try playing this game. It's already free, and already has less than 4k players. I think they should be concerned if this becomes a more prevalent opinion. Their potential player base is millions and millions of PS3s And nobody cares Why? This is why. Soon vets will leave and Dust will have nothing. What a bloody joke.
Nguruthos IX PEN 15 CLUB 2256	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:32:00 - [27] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Skihids wrote: Vehicles appear headed for an endgame role after you attain one or two infantry roles. Unless they become very inexpensive and more maps open up you won't be able to sustain piloting financially at the start of your career. You will definitely need to start with boots on the ground. i have many roles but the sp sink in too deep already ISK unsustainable. Ammo, requires supply depots, requires Skirm (no Ambush) = GG MCC missiles and 20 minutes games for 100k isk. good bye ds sustainability Red line rail tanks only way to go now. Disgusting.
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 102	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:32:00 - [28] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: This game needs more SP sinks. I have a fully maxed out Gallente Assault with all passive skills maxed out and PG/CPU expanded and reduced from equipment skills maxed out at 5. All I need now is a Gallente Sidearm Pistol and I'll be maxed out. Edit: You know what, I need something to go in my Highslot CCP. I'm a player with 30 mil SP, it's getting pretty boring. not eveyone can get 30 mil sp in year That's not the point, The point I failed to get across is that this game needs more content but more content requires more SP sinks. and while vehicles should have a little bit more SP to be invested in them they shouldn't be paper thin and worthless like they are now. Hopefully that changes in 1.7 "is that this game needs more content but more content requires more SP sinks." no, this game needs more content not sp sinks, btw if you play for sp, then you can geet out(redneck voice)+not everyone no life's dust. recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 2905	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:38:00 - [29] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: edit: not even, a bloody militia does the trick. who can defend this desperate attempt to increase playtime sans adding actual content? Pretty much all you need is a proto forge gun, militia suit and maybe one or two damage mods (forget other modules and a sidearm, this suit is made just to blow up vehicles) that will cost you around 800k SP and less than 100k ISK to blow up a 22 mil SP Vehicle that cost 900k ISK. Makes perfect sense CCP. ....although....If they are actually trying to make this like a realistic shooter then having a cheap item able to blow up extremely high priced vehicles does fit in, but that's only if you were allowed to be restricted to one suit per match instead of having all of your fittings at your disposal at the time. BUT we all know this is not, nor ever will be the case so I digress.
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 2906	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:40:00 - [30] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: no, this game needs more content not sp sinks, btw if you play for sp, then you can geet out(redneck voice)+not everyone no life's dust. lol you lost all credibility and respect from that one comment. Just another 15 year old child on the forums, move along.



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