DUST Search - Why are vehicles a class ?

Needless Sacermendor wrote:

Many of you might remember before Uprising when you created a character, you chose a class ... I forget their names but there was Enforcer n Arbeiter n Sentinal and they dictated what class of dropsuit and relevant skills you started with.

So why is it vehicles ended up being a class of their own ? ... Why do we have people running starter fits for the sole purpose of investing into vehicle skills and to save isk to afford to use them ?

I would much rather have seen vehicles that were damn difficult to get rid of and could be a real problem for an entire team but required Caldari Assault Dropsuit skill 5 as a pre-requisite or logistics vehicles that required Minmatar Logistics Dropsuit skill 5 etc. and even Pirate Faction vehicles that required cross training such as Sansha dropship requiring Minmatar and Gallente dropship 5 for example.

This would have put vehicles to where I think they should've been ... an endgame specialisation rather than common as muck in every pub battle. They would have been something to work towards and the envy of everyone who hadn't got that far yet and would justify their pricetag with firepower and survivability of an endgame asset that you'd only see driven by people with 20+ mil sp and they'd only have just started skilling them rather than cross training other suits n maxing out other weapons.

You could have pushed AV deeper into the specialisation tree so AV grenades were a 10-15X skill requiring Flux 5 which would require Locus 5 ... and Swarms requiring Lazer and Mass Driver 5 (or whatever you think fits better) ... and Forges requiring HMG 5 etc. etc. etc. just making them more specialised than the 'alternative weapon' they are now.

I know it's probably way too late to do anything about this, since there are so many "vehicle specialists" that would cry and leave if they had to play a gun game, but I would have much preferred vehicles to have been like the Capitals of Eve ... certainly the higher level ones (maybe basic LAVs n dropships could have been available with advanced dropsuits).

Just my opinion, agree or disagree, won't make either of us right !

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Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 537	Posted - 2013.10.22 15:52:00 - [1] - Quote Many of you might remember before Uprising when you created a character, you chose a class ... I forget their names but there was Enforcer n Arbeiter n Sentinal and they dictated what class of dropsuit and relevant skills you started with. So why is it vehicles ended up being a class of their own ? ... Why do we have people running starter fits for the sole purpose of investing into vehicle skills and to save isk to afford to use them ? I would much rather have seen vehicles that were damn difficult to get rid of and could be a real problem for an entire team but required Caldari Assault Dropsuit skill 5 as a pre-requisite or logistics vehicles that required Minmatar Logistics Dropsuit skill 5 etc. and even Pirate Faction vehicles that required cross training such as Sansha dropship requiring Minmatar and Gallente dropship 5 for example. This would have put vehicles to where I think they should've been ... an endgame specialisation rather than common as muck in every pub battle. They would have been something to work towards and the envy of everyone who hadn't got that far yet and would justify their pricetag with firepower and survivability of an endgame asset that you'd only see driven by people with 20+ mil sp and they'd only have just started skilling them rather than cross training other suits n maxing out other weapons. You could have pushed AV deeper into the specialisation tree so AV grenades were a 10-15X skill requiring Flux 5 which would require Locus 5 ... and Swarms requiring Lazer and Mass Driver 5 (or whatever you think fits better) ... and Forges requiring HMG 5 etc. etc. etc. just making them more specialised than the 'alternative weapon' they are now. I know it's probably way too late to do anything about this, since there are so many "vehicle specialists" that would cry and leave if they had to play a gun game, but I would have much preferred vehicles to have been like the Capitals of Eve ... certainly the higher level ones (maybe basic LAVs n dropships could have been available with advanced dropsuits). Just my opinion, agree or disagree, won't make either of us right !
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 1205	Posted - 2013.10.22 15:55:00 - [2] - Quote So you wanted tanks to be what all of the tankers wanted? A super weapon only 10-20 players could use and dominate with? Welcome to Chromosome. Golden Age <333 One of those in an ambush and you were guaranteed 30 kills, at least. Rails could sit on top of a mountain on Manus Peak and go 50+ kills every time bby camping every objective (people used to render beyond 10m)
Dexter307 the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 459	Posted - 2013.10.22 15:56:00 - [3] - Quote Because we don't have enough SP sinks Vehicles are a major part of the game so this is a terrible idea. If you want no vehicles go play COD.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 537	Posted - 2013.10.22 15:58:00 - [4] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: So you wanted tanks to be what all of the tankers wanted? A super weapon only 10-20 players could use and dominate with? Welcome to Chromosome. Golden Age <333 One of those in an ambush and you were guaranteed 30 kills, at least. Rails could sit on top of a mountain on Manus Peak and go 50+ kills every time bby camping every objective (people used to render beyond 10m) It was E3 build when they were where I thought they should be, but I maxed out the Surya in a week ... so not the endgame specialisation they should have been.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 3719	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:01:00 - [5] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: So you wanted tanks to be what all of the tankers wanted? A super weapon only 10-20 players could use and dominate with? Welcome to Chromosome. Golden Age <333 One of those in an ambush and you were guaranteed 30 kills, at least. Rails could sit on top of a mountain on Manus Peak and go 50+ kills every time bby camping every objective (people used to render beyond 10m) the worst tank stomps were the ones witha full squad of infantry supporting the tank, those were horrific, i ended up against zitro and a squad of imps on a couple of occasions, those were painful.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 537	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:01:00 - [6] - Quote Dexter307 wrote: Because we don't have enough SP sinks Vehicles are a major part of the game so this is a terrible idea. If you want no vehicles go play COD. I don't want no vehicles ... I just don't want 3-4 people on each team in every pub match bringing in vehicles cos that's all they've skilled in ... they should have been kept at the high power they used to have in earlier closed beta builds, but they should have been pushed into an endgame specialisation AFTER you'd developed some FPS skill to fund them with. Edit : I tried CoD once !
Dexter307 the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 459	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:10:00 - [7] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Dexter307 wrote: Because we don't have enough SP sinks Vehicles are a major part of the game so this is a terrible idea. If you want no vehicles go play COD. I don't want no vehicles ... I just don't want 3-4 people on each team in every pub match bringing in vehicles cos that's all they've skilled in ... they should have been kept at the high power they used to have in earlier closed beta builds, but they should have been pushed into an endgame specialisation AFTER you'd developed some FPS skill to fund them with. Edit : I tried CoD once ! 3-4 people using vehicles is normal, people like being vehicle specialists, they shouldn't have to waste skill points on things they'll never use. And with no vehicles it would take forever to get places.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 537	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:18:00 - [8] - Quote Dexter307 wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Dexter307 wrote: Because we don't have enough SP sinks Vehicles are a major part of the game so this is a terrible idea. If you want no vehicles go play COD. I don't want no vehicles ... I just don't want 3-4 people on each team in every pub match bringing in vehicles cos that's all they've skilled in ... they should have been kept at the high power they used to have in earlier closed beta builds, but they should have been pushed into an endgame specialisation AFTER you'd developed some FPS skill to fund them with. Edit : I tried CoD once ! 3-4 people using vehicles is normal, people like being vehicle specialists, they shouldn't have to waste skill points on things they'll never use. And with no vehicles it would take forever to get places. That's why I said basic LAVs and dropships could have been unlocked at advanced dropsuit levels since they're transport vehicles and not particularly offensive ... speeders would be included aswell. If 3-4 vehicles is normal, then they should be easy to deal with and not cost what they currently do.
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 650	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:19:00 - [9] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Many of you might remember before Uprising when you created a character, you chose a class ... I forget their names but there was Enforcer n Arbeiter n Sentinal and they dictated what class of dropsuit and relevant skills you started with. So why is it vehicles ended up being a class of their own ? ... Why do we have people running starter fits for the sole purpose of investing into vehicle skills and to save isk to afford to use them ? I would much rather have seen vehicles that were damn difficult to get rid of and could be a real problem for an entire team but required Caldari Assault Dropsuit skill 5 as a pre-requisite or logistics vehicles that required Minmatar Logistics Dropsuit skill 5 etc. and even Pirate Faction vehicles that required cross training such as Sansha dropship requiring Minmatar and Gallente dropship 5 for example. This would have put vehicles to where I think they should've been ... an endgame specialisation rather than common as muck in every pub battle. They would have been something to work towards and the envy of everyone who hadn't got that far yet and would justify their pricetag with firepower and survivability of an endgame asset that you'd only see driven by people with 20+ mil sp and they'd only have just started skilling them rather than cross training other suits n maxing out other weapons. You could have pushed AV deeper into the specialisation tree so AV grenades were a 10-15X skill requiring Flux 5 which would require Locus 5 ... and Swarms requiring Lazer and Mass Driver 5 (or whatever you think fits better) ... and Forges requiring HMG 5 etc. etc. etc. just making them more specialised than the 'alternative weapon' they are now. I know it's probably way too late to do anything about this, since there are so many "vehicle specialists" that would cry and leave if they had to play a gun game, but I would have much preferred vehicles to have been like the Capitals of Eve ... certainly the higher level ones (maybe basic LAVs n dropships could have been available with advanced dropsuits). Just my opinion, agree or disagree, won't make either of us right ! A tank driver shouldn't have to train as an infantryman to drive a tank. Just make tanks skill intensive so you have to dedicate a character to it. There is already a built in disadvantage to training tanks that will ensure not too many tanks are on the field. You can't run anything else very well so you have to run tanks or crap infantry fits. Of course the problem still remains that you can keep on training stuff in this game so there will come a time when a lot of players can run a tank. That is a problem in general that will make this game have to be constantly retooled due to skill inflation. This game needs a max sp per character to avoid the "superman" complex that will inevitably occur. Everybody can be great at everything. Already this is happening with AV weapons. Tanks are a joke now because of AV surplus among chars. I hate that EVE has this; but, EVE has many things to do, not just straight up combat.
Dexter307 the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 460	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:21:00 - [10] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Dexter307 wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Dexter307 wrote: Because we don't have enough SP sinks Vehicles are a major part of the game so this is a terrible idea. If you want no vehicles go play COD. I don't want no vehicles ... I just don't want 3-4 people on each team in every pub match bringing in vehicles cos that's all they've skilled in ... they should have been kept at the high power they used to have in earlier closed beta builds, but they should have been pushed into an endgame specialisation AFTER you'd developed some FPS skill to fund them with. Edit : I tried CoD once ! 3-4 people using vehicles is normal, people like being vehicle specialists, they shouldn't have to waste skill points on things they'll never use. And with no vehicles it would take forever to get places. That's why I said basic LAVs and dropships could have been unlocked at advanced dropsuit levels since they're transport vehicles and not particularly offensive ... speeders would be included aswell. If 3-4 vehicles is normal, then they should be easy to deal with and not cost what they currently do. You shouldn't have to train dropsuits AT ALL And they are easy to deal with, I'd be fine with a price reduction.

Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 283	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:24:00 - [11] - Quote The problems with going high level Dropsuit before being able to go Tank is that it requires no specialization which, for better or worse, is CCP's whole shtick. If someone in a Prototype Assault Suit can then easily go into Tanks, they are the best at two things. If someone requires a lot of skill points to get into Tanks, people won't do it because of the sheer cost. I don't think anyone wants actually wants a Tank that requires an entire team to kill. Honestly, the reason why Tanks were so darn strong in Chromosome wasn't because they didn't have to use a PG extender but because no one had any kind of AV weapons. It was mostly Militia/Standard stuff. The problem with Tanks is that Militia and Standard stuff has virtually no chance of killing a Tank that is competent while a single Prototype Swarm or IAFG will tear through a Tank in a manner of seconds. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1412965 is what I noticed in Vegas this weekend. Tanks are Paper. Infantry are Rocks. AV are Sharp Rocks. Rock has no chance against Paper. Paper has no chance against Sharp Rock. Sharp Rock still has some chance against Rock. Be well.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2304	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:30:00 - [12] - Quote A suit requirement wouldn't accomplish what you want anyway. It would simply add another SP sink for vehicle pilots. The real infantry SP requirements come in numerous Dropsuit Upgrade skills and Weapon skills. The suit is only a tiny SP cost compared to all the support skills required to be an effective infantry player.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 60	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:31:00 - [13] - Quote Sorry man -1 Nonsensical sp requirements do not fix the AV balance, if anything they would break it even worse when one of those aforementioned veterans brings out a tank in a pub match and is completely unstoppable. I know this is going to throw some people but I think all vehicles should have a reduced sp investment, and provide much more marginal benefits for sp invested. This is a gun game, vehicle specialization should not be a class anymore than the mass driver users are a class. It is a tool, you can specialize into it and hone your skills to get the most out of it, but in the end it is a tool. Calling in vehicles should be an investment for assistance your team not a dedicated play style.
Mortedeamor Internal Rebellion 505	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:31:00 - [14] - Quote sounds like chromosome hell yeah gimme a respec and my saggy and surya back
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 537	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:32:00 - [15] - Quote Skihids wrote: A suit requirement wouldn't accomplish what you want anyway. It would simply add another SP sink for vehicle pilots. The real infantry SP requirements come in numerous Dropsuit Upgrade skills and Weapon skills. The suit is only a tiny SP cost compared to all the support skills required to be an effective infantry player. Yeah good point.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 537	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:52:00 - [16] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: Sorry man -1 Nonsensical sp requirements do not fix the AV balance, if anything they would break it even worse when one of those aforementioned veterans brings out a tank in a pub match and is completely unstoppable. I know this is going to throw some people but I think all vehicles should have a reduced sp investment, and provide much more marginal benefits for sp invested. This is a gun game, vehicle specialization should not be a class anymore than the mass driver users are a class. It is a tool, you can specialize into it and hone your skills to get the most out of it, but in the end it is a tool. Calling in vehicles should be an investment for assistance your team not a dedicated play style. AV balance and matchmaking are completely separate points ... my point was that vehicles, certainly the offensive and logistics ones, should have been kept at the levels they were in E3, but pushed into an 'endgame specialisation' like the Capital ships of Eve. I agree with your second paragraph, it's an alternative end of the spectrum to my idea, but it works equally well ... everyone would have easy access to them, some would specialise them more deeply to gain the edge, others would have them at mid level with mid level dropsuits and others would have basic to none but would have good dropsuit skills, some with good AV weapon skills, they would be more common and therefore less imposing, but would obviously need to be pretty cheap. AND to the people quoting chromosome as their high point ... either you weren't in E3 or you have a bad memory ... I could still dominate an unsupported top spec HAV in Chromosome with my maxed out Swarms, the problem most of you had was I was one of very few who had specialised in AV and I'd done it from the start of every build since I got bored of my god-mode HAV half way through E3.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1497	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:52:00 - [17] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So you wanted tanks to be what all of the tankers wanted? A super weapon only 10-20 players could use and dominate with? Welcome to Chromosome. Golden Age <333 One of those in an ambush and you were guaranteed 30 kills, at least. Rails could sit on top of a mountain on Manus Peak and go 50+ kills every time bby camping every objective (people used to render beyond 10m) It was E3 build when they were where I thought they should be, but I maxed out the Surya in a week ... so not the endgame specialisation they should have been. SP gain was unlimited tho and 4x the rate too 200k SP games ftw
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 537	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:53:00 - [18] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So you wanted tanks to be what all of the tankers wanted? A super weapon only 10-20 players could use and dominate with? Welcome to Chromosome. Golden Age <333 One of those in an ambush and you were guaranteed 30 kills, at least. Rails could sit on top of a mountain on Manus Peak and go 50+ kills every time bby camping every objective (people used to render beyond 10m) It was E3 build when they were where I thought they should be, but I maxed out the Surya in a week ... so not the endgame specialisation they should have been. SP gain was unlimited tho and 4x the rate too 200k SP games ftw Yeah but it was still FAR from endgame assets. Edit : seem to remember I had the week off and no sp caps :-))
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 1280	Posted - 2013.10.22 17:22:00 - [19] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Dexter307 wrote: Because we don't have enough SP sinks Vehicles are a major part of the game so this is a terrible idea. If you want no vehicles go play COD. I don't want no vehicles ... I just don't want 3-4 people on each team in every pub match bringing in vehicles cos that's all they've skilled in ... I don't want 3-4 people on each team in every pub match bringing in assault forge guns to snipe infantry cos that's all they've skilled in... But tough bananas.... So I adapted and heavily skilled into proto snipers, and with a tac I can double-head-tap most heavies and put them out of their misery... Maybe you should bring AV to fight tankers? You usually only have to kill an HAV once to stop them from calling another one in, and lord knows HAVs are fragile as is (At least in Skirmish or Dom, in Ambush I can understand you disliking them). ___________________________________________________ Why do you want common HAVs and Derpships to be considered endgame? They are not special, and all the videos and dev comments certainly keep them from ever being considered "rare" and are theoretically supposed to be spammable. There is nothing special enough about HAVs for me to ever consider them "end-game" material. Player-controlled MCCs sure, and other "Huge" crap, but currently HAVs and Derpships are nothing more then the "battleships" of EVE, and easily taken down by the cruisers and assault frigate "derpsuits" we have now... And accordingly easy enough to skill into.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2304	Posted - 2013.10.22 17:34:00 - [20] - Quote DUST is much more than a simple shooter and despite the atrocious implementation vehicles are a significant part of the game. Vehicles are not a mere tool to be wielded by the infantry player like a gun or nano-hive. Piloting is a profession in any military and there is no reason to denigrate it in DUST. The vehicle pilot role should be as deep and complex as the infantry roles. Despite all appearances this isn't supposed to be AR-514 where everything revolves around the assault player with his rifle. That's CoD.

Justice Prevails Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 51	Posted - 2013.10.22 17:39:00 - [21] - Quote I would imagine for some of the pilots, that the draw of this game was the fact that they could specialize as a pilot right away. Making them have to skill up in gun game would have no appeal to some and we would lose them as mercs(even though the current vehicle issues might do this anyway). It's like going to college to be an engineer and a prereq is 10 semesters of creative writing.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 537	Posted - 2013.10.22 17:40:00 - [22] - Quote Skihids wrote: Piloting is a profession in any military and there is no reason to denigrate it in DUST. YEt I doubt you'll find a military in the world where vehicle operators don't complete at least basic infantry training !
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 537	Posted - 2013.10.22 17:47:00 - [23] - Quote Justice Prevails wrote: I would imagine for some of the pilots, that the draw of this game was the fact that they could specialize as a pilot right away. Making them have to skill up in gun game would have no appeal to some and we would lose them as mercs(even though the current vehicle issues might do this anyway). It's like going to college to be an engineer and a prereq is 10 semesters of creative writing. Yeah which is why I said it would be way too late to change things this way ... but if it had started out like that, people would be working their way through the gun game to be able to specialise in the vehicles they wanted. Also your analogy is way off ... it's like joining the Army to drive Tanks and finding out you have to complete basic training !
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2304	Posted - 2013.10.22 17:47:00 - [24] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Skihids wrote: Piloting is a profession in any military and there is no reason to denigrate it in DUST. YEt I doubt you'll find a military in the world where vehicle operators don't complete at least basic infantry training ! Basic training is the equivalent of running in starter suits, so we have that. Every merc starts his career out already knowing which end of the gun to point and how to toss a grenade. From there we choose a role and train. Some want to go deep into assault, some logistics, some heavy weapons, and others choose a vehicle. Air force pilots don't train as Army rangers before they go to flight school. Flying is not the end-game after becoming a Navy Seal. Each of those roles are separate and equal.
Justice Prevails Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 51	Posted - 2013.10.22 17:51:00 - [25] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Skihids wrote: Piloting is a profession in any military and there is no reason to denigrate it in DUST. YEt I doubt you'll find a military in the world where vehicle operators don't complete at least basic infantry training ! I see what your saying, but basic training(for the navy) was only about 9 weeks. Then you were sent to your A school right after if you picked a rate when you joined. A very small percentage of your career would be basic. What your asking is for someone to spend 15 years of a 20 year career I basic. That what I got from your op. Edit: same as guy above. I'm an old man, takes me forever to type on phone.
Rogatien Merc Red Star. EoN. 1502	Posted - 2013.10.22 17:59:00 - [26] - Quote I'd prefer they drop the SP requirements for everything vehicle-related to about 25% of current levels but keep/increase the ISK price. That way they end up being used as specialized equipment without gimping those who really like the vehicle experience when. Also, I am slightly incapacitated right now so the above may or may not make sense when I re-read it later.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 537	Posted - 2013.10.22 18:02:00 - [27] - Quote Justice Prevails wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Skihids wrote: Piloting is a profession in any military and there is no reason to denigrate it in DUST. YEt I doubt you'll find a military in the world where vehicle operators don't complete at least basic infantry training ! I see what your saying, but basic training(for the navy) was only about 9 weeks. Then you were sent to your A school right after if you picked a rate when you joined. A very small percentage of your career would be basic. What your asking is for someone to spend 15 years of a 20 year career I basic. That what I got from your op. Only as the mighty capital ships require you to spend years training the smaller ships in Eve. I just see people joining the game and skilling straight into HAVs because they look like they should be an easy way to kill without being killed. My point is I'd be happy if they were like that, so long as you had to work your way up to them through the ranks of infantry, earning the right to drive such a vehicle, rather than what most do by just slogging it out in starter fits till they have the sp and isk to invest in them. Case in point ... I have a second account passive training since launch waiting for vehicles to be sorted out so I can jump in them myself when I feel like it.
Justice Prevails Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 51	Posted - 2013.10.22 18:18:00 - [28] - Quote I'm not a tanker, I actually hate them (kind of a respect,but love hate), so I'm no expert on what kind of sp they have to spend. But I do know they have to spend some good coin just to field the most basic tank( which can be solo killed with a basic swarm). Don't think a tanker just starting out can field them on a consistent basis without going infantry once in awhile. That will have to be the basic training.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 1916	Posted - 2013.10.22 18:27:00 - [29] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: I'd prefer they drop the SP requirements for everything vehicle-related to about 25% of current levels but keep/increase the ISK price. That way they end up being used as specialized equipment without gimping those who really like the vehicle experience when. Also, I am slightly incapacitated right now so the above may or may not make sense when I re-read it later. if you were to do that, the only way to keep the class alive is to buff tanks a lot because they aren't worth their current cost and certainly not a future cost if they remain as weak as they are.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 1916	Posted - 2013.10.22 18:30:00 - [30] - Quote this isn't call of duty, I didnt come to this game to be a mindless gun slinging grunt, I came here for a change in FPS, infantry work is boring, vehicles offered a change, back in closed beta I skilled into vehicles because it was different, that's still my reason today. why should I have to go through a month of skilling into something I WILL RARELY EVER USE just to get to the basics of something I plan on using constantly?



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