Very well then.

You know someone at work, like they're in a special division, they speak a special language, he seems to be from Jupiter, but that is why your company hired him and has him on pay roll because he speaks, breathes and talks that otherworldly stuff?

At times game developers are very much like that, which at times we as customers can be viewed the same way as that as well. That they don't understand us, we're from mars and we absolutely hate some features of their product and barf all over it.

CPM is to help provide context in the cases where it was too late, and context of why things not yet can and will be a bad idea, and be reasonable in trying to ensure the messaging gets across from the community to the developers. CPM has been fairly accurate so far in feelings on things that are known about ahead of time and the few times we stopped a feature from seeing light of day we absolutely knew you guys would be more than livid over it.

That's one of the important roles we can fulfill at this point the rest of the important roles should be outlined by the charter officially.

This is all well and good, but with you guys ultimately being "customers" CCP can (and has) opt to simply not tell you about changes at any given time.

And that's all it really comes down to isn't it? If they choose to tell you about change x or y. They don't even need a reason or justification for not saying anything to you first. Community managers aren't developers, really. They just interact with the community and save important topics/discussions and bring them to the devs and they actually get paid for it. They even work inside the building with the devs and can move about freely to discuss things with the devs at any given time.

In my opinion there is a lot of extra steps involved with the CPM that makes getting CCP's attention more difficult because even when you all do everything possible and have all the info you feel is necessary, you still need CCP to get together a meeting to get discussions, right? And even then there's only x amount of time for each meeting and we all know there's a mountain of things that need work, how are you lot expected to bring all of this stuff to the table quickly and coherently at one time and make sure every CPM member gets their fair share of discussion in?

I'm just an observer for all of this. Is this even an issue? Does this sound like something you guys experience or am I just completely off on all of this?

This is all well and good, but with you guys ultimately being "customers" CCP can (and has) opt to simply not tell you about changes at any given time.

And that's all it really comes down to isn't it? If they choose to tell you about change x or y. They don't even need a reason or justification for not saying anything to you first. Community managers aren't developers, really. They just interact with the community and save important topics/discussions and bring them to the devs and they actually get paid for it. They even work inside the building with the devs and can move about freely to discuss things with the devs at any given time.

In my opinion there is a lot of extra steps involved with the CPM that makes getting CCP's attention more difficult because even when you all do everything possible and have all the info you feel is necessary, you still need CCP to get together a meeting to get discussions, right? And even then there's only x amount of time for each meeting and we all know there's a mountain of things that need work, how are you lot expected to bring all of this stuff to the table quickly and coherently at one time and make sure every CPM member gets their fair share of discussion in?

I'm just an observer for all of this. Is this even an issue? Does this sound like something you guys experience or am I just completely off on all of this?

*snip*

I urge folks to read this one, it is rather important to the CPM and by extension to you guys.

These are all incredibly valid questions (and quite constructively asked I might add), and I need a break from writing statements, so I guess I'll answer a few of them from CCP's side.

So I think there are a few core reasons that the CSM and CPM are particularly good institutions in the game development process at CCP. The councils provide CCP with a group of player experts, that are in touch with the community in a way we never really can be. I as a member of the community team, can't be in private forums, or teamspeaks, and I don't have the ear of leaders in the DUST 514 community on a day to day basis. I also, can never be as good at the game as the people likely to be elected as CPM members, just because I lack the core talent at the game. Other companies will have focus groups, but CCP games aren't like other games. No focus group can understand the depth of play in EVE and DUST in a few hours, and if we asked them to play for longer, who can know if they'd enjoy it or represent a general player's opinions.

The reason we have councils is because it makes good business sense. CCP games are deep, and the people who are the best at them are experts at what they do. They might not be good at game design, or community management, or programming, but they can work with those people to help explain how new changes to the game will interact with the game at the highest level in a safe NDA'd enviroment, and are elected to ensure that the group stays current and keeps up with the game as it evolves. When we don't share ideas with them, we have the potential to lose perspective on the repercussions of our decisions, and not see that bigger picture.

I think that getting used to a council can be quite a change for people in the gaming industry who are unaccustomed to such a group, and a particularly fast paced release schedule (like the current release schedule for DUST) can exacerbate the problem. But, I think that people at the highest level and those who work with them quickly realize their value.

Damn I'm totally gonna steal some of this post for my statement, thanks man.

NDA is a very powerful tool when used properly by CCP, some very very very bad ideas will never get to see the light.

Nice to see that the CPM can't spell "Rogue", by the way. I'm sure the EP doesn't enjoy being called by a type of make-up...

This is a great explanation. As an Eve veteran of several years, I know how important a council can be. But as with any elected body, it can have downfalls, and serious pitfalls.

While I don't personally have any problems with CPM 0, I can see why many are wondering why there is such a delay in getting the charter and the first elected CPM in place. Hopefully this statement that CCP is making will clear this up some.

Nice to see that the CPM can't spell "Rogue", by the way. I'm sure the EP doesn't enjoy being called by a type of make-up...

An update to keep you all posted on the current state of things with the Council of Planetary Management:

http://hansshotfirst.blogspot.com/2013/10/cpm-activity-report-8-october-16-2013.html

The one big problem we have is voting, I still haven't heard a solid argument for how to fairly distribute ballots in a free to play game, there are a lot of ok options but no "great" ones. Additionally, there are problems with how best to conduct voting. Voting for the CSM occurs on the PC and EVE is a PC game (and even then turnout is not as great as I'd like), how then do we do voting for a game that is on PS3? I've collected pretty much every option in terms of suggestions (the size of the word doc would blow your mind), it's just a matter of me seeing what we can do and what will give us the most fair, representative, and enfranchised election we can.

Alot of words which really mean nothing

Frankly the one word i would use to describe the CPM is useless currently

CCP Dolan quote 'The councils provide CCP with a group of player experts' - lolno

Frankly this CPM doesnt seem to have experts full stop, vehicle community is totally not represented at all and maybe 2 out of the 6 are any good at DUST that is if they are still playing it and also if they are not gaming the system 1st to get an advantage while they scream 'metagame'

Its to the point where the CPM is quiet as a mouse and does nothing while the 1 job they had to do hasnt even come close to being done yet

Just an update to you guys. We are hoping we will have the statement from CCP today. I'm somewhat concerned that's it's been over a week now, but we've been assured that the gears are turning.

You have to realize by now that your chain is just being yanked. How long has it been since the CPM was created? How long have you been trying to get CCP Shanghai to open up communication? Lets face it, the CPM is just there to make it seem like they care what players think. They throw you a bone now and again by giving you the inside scoop but thats about it.

The CPM was publicly announced 187 days ago. How long have we been trying to open up with communication? About 187 days (longer if you include our requests from before many of us became CPMs).

I hope that you are wrong, but it will be up to CCP to prove to you all that their care for the community is genuine. I don't want to paint CCP with a broad brush though. There have been beacons of excellent communication in CCP with both the CPM and the community, but more often then not those feel like the exception rather than the norm.

I do get a feeling that CCP Rouge could set a very different tone in terms of future communication, but both the CPM and the community need tangible things we can hold onto. I do feel we could be at a turning point, but we're going to have to see consistent steps in the right direction.

Is Wang still with ccp as he made it pretty clear he wanted nothing to do with communty in regards to feedback

The CPM was publicly announced 187 days ago. How long have we been trying to open up with communication? About 187 days (longer if you include our requests from before many of us became CPMs).

I hope that you are wrong, but it will be up to CCP to prove to you all that their care for the community is genuine. I don't want to paint CCP with a broad brush though. There have been beacons of excellent communication in CCP with both the CPM and the community, but more often then not those feel like the exception rather than the norm.

I do get a feeling that CCP Rouge could set a very different tone in terms of future communication, but both the CPM and the community need tangible things we can hold onto. I do feel we could be at a turning point, but we're going to have to see consistent steps in the right direction.

I'd rather see in-game changes but this will be decent too.

Something like the CPM only works if they are seen as actually a part of the CCP process.

Just an update to you guys. We are hoping we will have the statement from CCP today. I'm somewhat concerned that's it's been over a week now, but we've been assured that the gears are turning.

In-game changes informed by Dev interaction with the community is a constant goal.



I couldn't agree more. CCP has to decide for itself if it wants to make working with the CPM an ingrained part of the process. I feel keenly aware regarding the idea of being thrown bone to provide hope. That is one of the reasons that CCP needs to state as clearly as they can themselves regarding the current state of the CPM.

Just an update to you guys. We are hoping we will have the statement from CCP today. I'm somewhat concerned that's it's been over a week now, but we've been assured that the gears are turning.

So about that CCP statement?