Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Absolute Idiom II
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
795
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
So it occurs to me that Dust FW literally boils down to the zerg: whichever side is more popular is the side which earns all the districts. Being ~equal in popularity results in zero net movement.
Last week Amarr were down to 5 districts and now we own practically everything. It wasn't a sudden upsurge in quality, but of quantity because of the FW event. This meant that we filled all the defence contracts and starting raising attacked contracts of our own. Even if you assume an even number of losses and wins you'll find that once you've got more attacks going than defences this results in an inevitable increase in districts.
So all being good and organised can do is temporarily stem the flow. It's like trying to push water from one end of the bath to the other and keep it there - it'll all just immediately flow right back. Only by having more guys fighting for you will actually TILT the entire bath and result in any change.
Maybe this is just how FW is SUPPOSED to work, but I'd really prefer it work differently and rewarded skill and organisation [at the Faction level]. Does anyone else agree that this is completely unsatisfying? |
JL3Eleven
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
1048
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Shhh don't tell CBJ. |
Crash Monster
Snipers Anonymous
1644
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Interesting.
I wonder if this is working as intended? Once you get down to a small number of districts it seems like it wouldn't take that many people to overflow the number of places to defend. |
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2780
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Well, there wasn't necessarily an upsurge in skill level of Amarr players, but there was a pretty significant upsurge in player organization on the Amarr side. That's a pretty big deal, in my opinion.
And secondly, you are absolutely correct. What are you trying to say? Do you think that your individual battles should dictate the grand scale of FW? FW is a large scale war spanning the entire Dust community, your individual fights are only ever going to be a fraction of the influence. In FW, it doesn't necessarily come down to which side has the best players, but which side has the best organizers, planners, and supporters. You can't tell me you haven't noticed the large push by those supporting the Amarr to rally as many players as possible and try to spark a sense of patriotism towards the Amarr. That's what FW is. If you want to make a come back, you have to get involved in this "meta gaming" if you want to call it that. If not, and you just want your personal battles to be the only thing that controls anything, then Planetary Conquest is probably more up your alley. |
Absolute Idiom II
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
795
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aero, I wouldn't called it organisation and Amarr patriotism. It's just, like me, they want the Amarr proto logi suit reward. Amarr simply had more people specifically choosing their faction as sole preference. |
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2781
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
And to add to my previous post, what is actually happening in FW, which I call a design flaw, is that the number of attacking contracts is about equal per side. Basically right now Minmatar has say about 5 districts give or take, and Amarr has hundreds. Given that both teams attack the same number of times, the Minmatar will attack each district much less frequently than the Amarr attack the small pool of Minmatar districts. I've been trying to raise awareness of this, it's not good at all for competition in FW. |
Absolute Idiom II
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
795
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
And really, what I'm saying is I'm disatisfied that the FW pendulum is swing much mroe strongly by mere participation of numbers and only very weakly by skill, or organisation.
After all, how are we supposed to gather more people to the cause in Dust? There are almost zero community tools. And as an FPS, I'd much rather that it was about the quality of the fights and not the quantity of the mercs. |
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2781
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Absolute Idiom II wrote:Aero, I wouldn't called it organisation and Amarr patriotism. It's just, like me, they want the Amarr proto logi suit reward. Amarr simply had more people specifically choosing their faction as sole preference. Well I know that we have gathered quite a large sum of players into our channel as well as big corporations to our cause, so it's definitely partially Amarr organization in my opinion.
Sure the rewards probably paid some part as well, but in my opinion not as large of one. The Amarr prizes tally up to a little over 5 million ISK or something, pretty similar with the other races. Our people so broke in Dust that they will sell their allegiance for 5 million ISK? Maybe, I suppose. |
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2781
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Absolute Idiom II wrote:And really, what I'm saying is I'm disatisfied that the FW pendulum is swing much mroe strongly by mere participation of numbers and only very weakly by skill, or organisation.
After all, how are we supposed to gather more people to the cause in Dust? There are almost zero community tools. And as an FPS, I'd much rather that it was about the quality of the fights and not the quantity of the mercs. I fail to see how more players = more attacking contracts, as you claim. That just doesn't add up to me, it should still be roughly the same number of attacks per side. And still, that is flawed. Whichever faction has a majority of the districts should have less attacking contracts, that's just what make sense.
Plus more players isn't necessarily a good thing, as that means more random blue dots who have no clue what they are doing, which would give the smaller number of skilled Minmatar players an edge. At the end of the day, Amarr is still winning contracts so I wouldn't exactly say they are winning purely by zerg. Nonetheless, the design of Dust FW isn't perfect and needs to get looked at, I'm just not sure that even if they fix it you'll still like how it plays out because it will still be a matter of who can rally the best support out of the player base. |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY
768
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
FW should be personal and not a game to play with your corp or alliance, if you are in a normal corp with members of every race. But there are some roleplaying corps like PIE, that is a legitimate FW corp for example, i've always seen only amarr in their corp. There should be some kind of system to reward your loyality to a race, like the corp and alliance chat channel, there should be a Faction channel.
Also, there should not be other events to play only in FW, they are breaking the metagame, most of people just think about their own interest instead of their race and don't care about the districts flip. Scrambler would have been much more useful for me, but i will never play for amarr. |
|
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2781
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:FW should be personal and not a game to play with your corp or alliance, if you are in a normal corp with members of every race. But there are some roleplaying corps like PIE, that is a legitimate FW corp for example, i've always seen only amarr in their corp. There should be some kind of system to reward your loyality to a race, like the corp and alliance chat channel, there should be a Faction channel.
Also, there should not be other events to play only in FW, they are breaking the metagame, most of people just think about their own interest instead of their race and don't care about the districts flip. Scrambler would have been much more useful for me, but i will never play for amarr. Why should FW be personal? You want something that has a large scale effect to be personal? The only things that should be personal are public matches, which have only a personal outcome (ISK). And I dislike the idea that your race should dictate who you play for in FW. That removes the sandbox element and is not how EVE does it. What's to say a Gallente can't be a loyal Amarr convert, for example? And PIE does have a sister corp, PAUX, which accepts non-Amarr bloodlines.
Lastly, why should they not do other events for FW? Are you aware that personal interest is often how FW plays out in EVE as well/ For instance, Minmatar ships are higher valued at the moment so so players are running around doing missions for Minmatar, not because they care for Minmatar but because they want that profit. That's perfectly fine in my opinion. Faction Warfare is always going to have a bit of "meta gaming" if you will. If you're only ever going to stay secluded to your own matches and not get involved in the bigger picture of what's happening, then you're never going to have a bigger impact on FW. |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY
768
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 13:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
We have different thoughts about what FW should be. I don't want to play ping-pong with you on another gd post, there is intergalactic summit or the war room for that XD The fact you have sister corp for non amarrian characters means you are a real roleplaying corp and i have nothing to say on it, it's right. I don't want to negate the possibility for players to choose a different race to fight for, but what army would give their complete trust at character not from their race? There should be some limitations, if FW will have loyality points and rewards/roles inside your faction a caldari character should be very discouraged to choose gallente faction to fight for. Also before doing things like this CCP should offer a race change. The race you choose should count something in the game.
|
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2781
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 13:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm not roleplaying at all here, this is general discussion and that's how I'm treating it. And I'm simply saying if in EVE they let anyone support any faction, it should be the same here. I know they are different games, but you have to keep some consistency. What really needs to happen is not so much a system that encourages Caldari to fight for Caldari for example, but rather a system where once you pick a faction to fight for you are encouraged to stay with that faction. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
1352
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 13:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zerg doesnt matter when its 16v16
If you cant beat the 16 in front you wont win |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
3880
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 15:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Zerg doesnt matter when its 16v16
If you cant beat the 16 in front you wont win
Did you even read the post, or did you just completely fail to comprehend what was being said? This is about overall district control and mechanics, not the actual matches themselves.
@OP - Does it still generate more attacks for the Amarr even if there aren't enough Minmatar players to fill the defence slots? Would this lead directly to a numerical advantage/disadvantage in the actual match itself?
This is a pretty significant flaw in the district system it seems. I'll post here again later - I'm going to try and dig up some FoxFour posts on the district system. |
Powerh8er
Norwegian Dust514 Corporation Top Men.
120
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 15:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
The difference is to get the kill or get the kill assist. |
Tailss Prower
501ST JFW StrikerZ Unit
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 15:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Crash Monster wrote:Interesting.
I wonder if this is working as intended? Once you get down to a small number of districts it seems like it wouldn't take that many people to overflow the number of places to defend.
With how CCP is sometimes it's hard to know what is working as intended I mean we can assume but that doesn't mean we are right |
steadyhand amarr
TeamPlayers EoN.
1553
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 15:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
The problems said here are known by the devs and apprentyly big changes are coming so I would shift the discuss to how u LIKE to see fw play out as the current flaws are known |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
1356
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 16:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Zerg doesnt matter when its 16v16
If you cant beat the 16 in front you wont win Did you even read the post, or did you just completely fail to comprehend what was being said? This is about overall district control and mechanics, not the actual matches themselves. @OP - Does it still generate more attacks for the Amarr even if there aren't enough Minmatar players to fill the defence slots? Would this lead directly to a numerical advantage/disadvantage in the actual match itself? This is a pretty significant flaw in the district system it seems. I'll post here again later - I'm going to try and dig up some FoxFour posts on the district system.
You can have 1000 players for gallente vs 16players for caldari
If 1 match can only spawn the 16 caldari could beat all the gallente over time, they may have more players but if each gallente team cannot beat the 16 in front of them what can they do?
Zerg doesnt matter |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
4025
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 16:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Zerg doesnt matter when its 16v16
If you cant beat the 16 in front you wont win
Read the OP next time and not just the title of the thread...
Absolute Idiom II wrote:So it occurs to me that Dust FW literally boils down to the zerg: whichever side is more popular is the side which earns all the districts. Being ~equal in popularity results in zero net movement.
That's what he meant by zerg. |
|
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
3881
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 16:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Zerg doesnt matter when its 16v16
If you cant beat the 16 in front you wont win Did you even read the post, or did you just completely fail to comprehend what was being said? This is about overall district control and mechanics, not the actual matches themselves. @OP - Does it still generate more attacks for the Amarr even if there aren't enough Minmatar players to fill the defence slots? Would this lead directly to a numerical advantage/disadvantage in the actual match itself? This is a pretty significant flaw in the district system it seems. I'll post here again later - I'm going to try and dig up some FoxFour posts on the district system. You can have 1000 players for gallente vs 16players for caldari If 1 match can only spawn the 16 caldari could beat all the gallente over time, they may have more players but if each gallente team cannot beat the 16 in front of them what can they do? Zerg doesnt matter
Unless it spawns more battles without sufficient resistance against the Gallente. I have experienced matches where there aren't full teams in FW for much of the match. |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY
768
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 16:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Who starts a battle? Should be aggressors, or not? If nobody search a match with the other faction the session is empty and aggressors, win a empty match. Or the match do not start if there are not request of defense after the aggressors vote to start a match? |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
1357
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 16:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Zerg doesnt matter when its 16v16
If you cant beat the 16 in front you wont win Did you even read the post, or did you just completely fail to comprehend what was being said? This is about overall district control and mechanics, not the actual matches themselves. @OP - Does it still generate more attacks for the Amarr even if there aren't enough Minmatar players to fill the defence slots? Would this lead directly to a numerical advantage/disadvantage in the actual match itself? This is a pretty significant flaw in the district system it seems. I'll post here again later - I'm going to try and dig up some FoxFour posts on the district system. You can have 1000 players for gallente vs 16players for caldari If 1 match can only spawn the 16 caldari could beat all the gallente over time, they may have more players but if each gallente team cannot beat the 16 in front of them what can they do? Zerg doesnt matter Unless it spawns more battles without sufficient resistance against the Gallente. I have experienced matches where there aren't full teams in FW for much of the match.
So then its broken
Matches shouldnt spawn if the players are not ther but then again the argument could be why not let them spawn its not our fault no one turns up
How does CCP want to do this, do they want it like EVE where plex spawn after being flipped but like 20min later that in DUST would mean once a battle is done you have to wait 20min for another one or do they do matches in batches and after they done thats it
|
Absolute Idiom II
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
798
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 16:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Zerg doesnt matter when its 16v16
If you cant beat the 16 in front you wont win Did you even read the post, or did you just completely fail to comprehend what was being said? This is about overall district control and mechanics, not the actual matches themselves. @OP - Does it still generate more attacks for the Amarr even if there aren't enough Minmatar players to fill the defence slots? Would this lead directly to a numerical advantage/disadvantage in the actual match itself? This is a pretty significant flaw in the district system it seems. I'll post here again later - I'm going to try and dig up some FoxFour posts on the district system. You can have 1000 players for gallente vs 16players for caldari If 1 match can only spawn the 16 caldari could beat all the gallente over time, they may have more players but if each gallente team cannot beat the 16 in front of them what can they do? Zerg doesnt matter
Technically you are correct in the exact scenario you spell out, however in reality there are plenty of people who multiqueue for all factions and therefore 'fill the gaps' as it were. You'll find the 1000 get more than a single fight - they get to fight unorganised randoms who don't care which faction they fight for - and don't even play together in squads for the most part. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
1357
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 16:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
Absolute Idiom II wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Zerg doesnt matter when its 16v16
If you cant beat the 16 in front you wont win Did you even read the post, or did you just completely fail to comprehend what was being said? This is about overall district control and mechanics, not the actual matches themselves. @OP - Does it still generate more attacks for the Amarr even if there aren't enough Minmatar players to fill the defence slots? Would this lead directly to a numerical advantage/disadvantage in the actual match itself? This is a pretty significant flaw in the district system it seems. I'll post here again later - I'm going to try and dig up some FoxFour posts on the district system. You can have 1000 players for gallente vs 16players for caldari If 1 match can only spawn the 16 caldari could beat all the gallente over time, they may have more players but if each gallente team cannot beat the 16 in front of them what can they do? Zerg doesnt matter Technically you are correct in the exact scenario you spell out, however in reality there are plenty of people who multiqueue for all factions and therefore 'fill the gaps' as it were. You'll find the 1000 get more than a single fight - they get to fight unorganised randoms who don't care which faction they fight for - and don't even play together in squads for the most part.
Thats a fault of the system then because players are just playing and do not care of the outcome, in all purposes they are the plexs/farmers/mission runners doing it for ISK and LP except in DUST no LP and ISK payouts are same in pubs except if they know which side is winning they can hop on for the big win and claim event prizes
Foxfour does have some intresting changes coming for FW tho and they seem to be very good, hopefully it means more will play and hopefully pick a faction too and fight for it, then again mercs are mercs |
da GAND
High-Damage Public Disorder.
267
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 18:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Not seeing much of a point to go into FW battles if I'm gonna lose every time cuz the Amarr side always has a squad from a corp or two mixed squads communicating with each other and having no organized squads on my side ( Minmitar). |
Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
982
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 18:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
I did it all for the AScRs.
|
True Adamance
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2994
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 18:54:00 -
[28] - Quote
Absolute Idiom II wrote:So it occurs to me that Dust FW literally boils down to the zerg: whichever side is more popular is the side which earns all the districts. Being ~equal in popularity results in zero net movement.
Last week Amarr were down to 5 districts and now we own practically everything. It wasn't a sudden upsurge in quality, but of quantity because of the FW event. This meant that we filled all the defence contracts and starting raising attacked contracts of our own. Even if you assume an even number of losses and wins you'll find that once you've got more attacks going than defences this results in an inevitable increase in districts.
So all being good and organised can do is temporarily stem the flow. It's like trying to push water from one end of the bath to the other and keep it there - it'll all just immediately flow right back. Only by having more guys fighting for you will actually TILT the entire bath and result in any change.
Maybe this is just how FW is SUPPOSED to work, but I'd really prefer it work differently and rewarded skill and organisation [at the Faction level]. Does anyone else agree that this is completely unsatisfying? This is how it is in EVE side FW. The more people you have the harder it is to clear a system and the deplex it. Just wait Idiom. If you want fair/ unfair matches fight Amarr after the event.
Were usually the more underrepresented FW group, also with the Gallente being tied up in their own FW you wont see half of the pseudo Minnie FW groups like Molon Labe, Prima Gallicus, Turalyon 514, and more. |
True Adamance
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2994
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 18:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
da GAND wrote:Not seeing much of a point to go into FW battles if I'm gonna lose every time cuz the Amarr side always has a squad from a corp or two mixed squads communicating with each other and having no organized squads on my side ( Minmitar).
THEN ORGANIZE THEM YOURSELF.
Gods above its not all that hard. Make a channel, reside in that channel, invite core Minnie FWers to said channel, let word spread of your actions amongst the Minmatar and Amarr Militias....
Channel Grows, good players come, you have your fighting force.
As I have said before. Minmatar Militias are lazy FWers. |
da GAND
High-Damage Public Disorder.
267
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 19:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:da GAND wrote:Not seeing much of a point to go into FW battles if I'm gonna lose every time cuz the Amarr side always has a squad from a corp or two mixed squads communicating with each other and having no organized squads on my side ( Minmitar). THEN ORGANIZE THEM YOURSELF. Gods above its not all that hard. Make a channel, reside in that channel, invite core Minnie FWers to said channel, let word spread of your actions amongst the Minmatar and Amarr Militias.... Channel Grows, good players come, you have your fighting force. As I have said before. Minmatar Militias are lazy FWers.
I'm not exactly someone who can gather a ton of people, sure I can make a channel but I wouldn't be able to encourage people to fight in these battles against a team with two or three squads filled with high SP characters with EVE support. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |