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Dust FW: why skill doesn't matter; only the zerg

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Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws 1266	Posted - 2013.10.14 19:13:00 - [31] - Quote da GAND wrote: True Adamance wrote: da GAND wrote: Not seeing much of a point to go into FW battles if I'm gonna lose every time cuz the Amarr side always has a squad from a corp or two mixed squads communicating with each other and having no organized squads on my side ( Minmitar). THEN ORGANIZE THEM YOURSELF. Gods above its not all that hard. Make a channel, reside in that channel, invite core Minnie FWers to said channel, let word spread of your actions amongst the Minmatar and Amarr Militias.... Channel Grows, good players come, you have your fighting force. As I have said before. Minmatar Militias are lazy FWers. I'm not exactly someone who can gather a ton of people, sure I can make a channel but I wouldn't be able to encourage people to fight in these battles against a team with two or three squads filled with high SP characters with EVE support. We already have channels, we already have players, we already have organization and all that. They just have exponentially more skilled players.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2996	Posted - 2013.10.14 19:17:00 - [32] - Quote Its a tough situation because we are where your were last month. The circumstances are exactly the same.
da GAND High-Damage Public Disorder. 267	Posted - 2013.10.14 19:21:00 - [33] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: da GAND wrote: True Adamance wrote: da GAND wrote: Not seeing much of a point to go into FW battles if I'm gonna lose every time cuz the Amarr side always has a squad from a corp or two mixed squads communicating with each other and having no organized squads on my side ( Minmitar). THEN ORGANIZE THEM YOURSELF. Gods above its not all that hard. Make a channel, reside in that channel, invite core Minnie FWers to said channel, let word spread of your actions amongst the Minmatar and Amarr Militias.... Channel Grows, good players come, you have your fighting force. As I have said before. Minmatar Militias are lazy FWers. I'm not exactly someone who can gather a ton of people, sure I can make a channel but I wouldn't be able to encourage people to fight in these battles against a team with two or three squads filled with high SP characters with EVE support. We already have channels, we already have players, we already have organization and all that. They just have exponentially more skilled players. Could u invite me to those channels plz, or message me in game with the name of some of those channels plz
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws 1267	Posted - 2013.10.14 19:23:00 - [34] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Its a tough situation because we are where your were last month. The circumstances are exactly the same. The things that is absolutely infuriating is the mechanic. I do love that I've essentially been playing PC matches for the past week. I love that competition. The problem comes with the fact that we can WIN and WIN and WIN but they're only defense contracts. After we move on to attack contracts and win those, the land we just defended is gone. We can play all day, win 90% of matches, and still only own 1% of land because there are so many Amarrians attacking. Seriously, I respect you PIE dudes, but this stuff with us being lazy is not at all the problem and you guys should be well aware of it.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws 1269	Posted - 2013.10.14 19:37:00 - [35] - Quote da GAND wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: da GAND wrote: True Adamance wrote: da GAND wrote: Not seeing much of a point to go into FW battles if I'm gonna lose every time cuz the Amarr side always has a squad from a corp or two mixed squads communicating with each other and having no organized squads on my side ( Minmitar). THEN ORGANIZE THEM YOURSELF. Gods above its not all that hard. Make a channel, reside in that channel, invite core Minnie FWers to said channel, let word spread of your actions amongst the Minmatar and Amarr Militias.... Channel Grows, good players come, you have your fighting force. As I have said before. Minmatar Militias are lazy FWers. I'm not exactly someone who can gather a ton of people, sure I can make a channel but I wouldn't be able to encourage people to fight in these battles against a team with two or three squads filled with high SP characters with EVE support. We already have channels, we already have players, we already have organization and all that. They just have exponentially more skilled players. Could u invite me to those channels plz, or message me in game with the name of some of those channels plz "tribal voices" is where most of us congregate. It's usually a pretty full chat with guys running FW regularly.
da GAND High-Damage Public Disorder. 272	Posted - 2013.10.14 19:55:00 - [36] - Quote K I'll check it out later Cyrius
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3000	Posted - 2013.10.14 19:58:00 - [37] - Quote da GAND wrote: K I'll check it out later Cyrius I have seen you fight before, I hope to fight you again.
Absolute Idiom II SyNergy Gaming EoN. 800	Posted - 2013.10.14 19:58:00 - [38] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Absolute Idiom II wrote: So it occurs to me that Dust FW literally boils down to the zerg: whichever side is more popular is the side which earns all the districts. Being ~equal in popularity results in zero net movement. Last week Amarr were down to 5 districts and now we own practically everything. It wasn't a sudden upsurge in quality, but of quantity because of the FW event. This meant that we filled all the defence contracts and starting raising attacked contracts of our own. Even if you assume an even number of losses and wins you'll find that once you've got more attacks going than defences this results in an inevitable increase in districts. So all being good and organised can do is temporarily stem the flow. It's like trying to push water from one end of the bath to the other and keep it there - it'll all just immediately flow right back. Only by having more guys fighting for you will actually TILT the entire bath and result in any change. Maybe this is just how FW is SUPPOSED to work, but I'd really prefer it work differently and rewarded skill and organisation [at the Faction level]. Does anyone else agree that this is completely unsatisfying? This is how it is in EVE side FW. The more people you have the harder it is to clear a system and the deplex it. Just wait Idiom. If you want fair/ unfair matches fight Amarr after the event. Were usually the more underrepresented FW group, also with the Gallente being tied up in their own FW you wont see half of the pseudo Minnie FW groups like Molon Labe, Prima Gallicus, Turalyon 514, and more. It's not about fair/unfair matches. The actual battles are pretty good. It's the meta game I'm finding lacking. As spelled out above, whether you gain or lose ground isn't about ability to fight, it's about the number of people fighting for your faction. However, I've spoken to a few other people and apparently this sound exactly like Planetside 2 and pretty much any 2-sided 'territorial' game is like. I want more; but I need to think about how to articulate it better.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 233	Posted - 2013.10.14 20:12:00 - [39] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: (Are) people so broke in Dust that they will sell their allegiance for 5 million ISK? Maybe, I suppose. Allegiance? What allegience? DUST brainwashes everyone that they are MERCENARIES. Mercs dont have allegiences. And even without that.. people have no incentive to have allegiences. Up until the recent FW, that is. I would LOVE it, if they completeliy changed DUST, so that people got motivated to stick to particular races. For example, if some weapons were some combination of: 1. Only wieldable by a particular race. (Amarr gets this currently, by virtue of being the only 'heavy' suit... grr) 2. Only obtainable via Faction Warfare for that race 2.1 Only if you stick to dropsuits for that particular race, in the FW ! When I suggested somethin like this, I've had people whine about "(but I cant do X in that race's suit)" Okay, then dont play FW for that race! Go play for the ones you like using! There's supposed to be difference in races. Complaining "(all races are not the same)", is rather missing the point.
da GAND High-Damage Public Disorder. 273	Posted - 2013.10.14 20:16:00 - [40] - Quote True Adamance wrote: da GAND wrote: K I'll check it out later Cyrius I have seen you fight before, I hope to fight you again. Same here

Pvt Numnutz Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 262	Posted - 2013.10.14 20:47:00 - [41] - Quote Yes the amarr bounes were good, I thought the caldari's was better but to each his own. This is incentive to fight and win for a faction, something that Would be really good to have for FW. If we gained loyalty points for fighting and wining battles and can spend them on FW goodies like state protectorate suits and the like. From what I understand the amarr did a good job at recognising a potential boost in recruits and acted on it with good organization and recruitment. Sure there may not be a lot of 'fps' skill involved with co-ordinating corporations, but one of the collest things about this universe is the politics, and that's a skill in its own. If anything I think this has set the bar on how FW teams need to be organize. This should serve as a wake up call for people to get their acts together and get all the assets they can before searching for a contract. I tip my hat to the amarr
steadyhand amarr TeamPlayers EoN. 1555	Posted - 2013.10.14 21:08:00 - [42] - Quote tbh iv not see organization in any game to level PIE and EON managed to dish out it was like i game in one day after work we are losing i come in day after we have 100%, i was like "guys wtf happend"
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3005	Posted - 2013.10.14 21:11:00 - [43] - Quote da GAND wrote: True Adamance wrote: da GAND wrote: K I'll check it out later Cyrius I have seen you fight before, I hope to fight you again. Same here You've seen me fight.....?
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3005	Posted - 2013.10.14 21:13:00 - [44] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Yes the amarr bounes were good, I thought the caldari's was better but to each his own. This is incentive to fight and win for a faction, something that Would be really good to have for FW. If we gained loyalty points for fighting and wining battles and can spend them on FW goodies like state protectorate suits and the like. From what I understand the amarr did a good job at recognising a potential boost in recruits and acted on it with good organization and recruitment. Sure there may not be a lot of 'fps' skill involved with co-ordinating corporations, but one of the collest things about this universe is the politics, and that's a skill in its own. If anything I think this has set the bar on how FW teams need to be organize. This should serve as a wake up call for people to get their acts together and get all the assets they can before searching for a contract. I tip my hat to the amarr Thank you. Was pretty fun running the logistics, PR, and more social aspects of the game rather than the standard meat grinder battles. I actually spent the bulk of "the Longest Day" at work, occasionally getting messaged from Aero and the guys, and forwarding those on to the Admirals and Captains.
echo47 Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 87	Posted - 2013.10.14 21:46:00 - [45] - Quote True Adamance wrote: da GAND wrote: Not seeing much of a point to go into FW battles if I'm gonna lose every time cuz the Amarr side always has a squad from a corp or two mixed squads communicating with each other and having no organized squads on my side ( Minmitar). THEN ORGANIZE THEM YOURSELF. Gods above its not all that hard. Make a channel, reside in that channel, invite core Minnie FWers to said channel, let word spread of your actions amongst the Minmatar and Amarr Militias.... Channel Grows, good players come, you have your fighting force. As I have said before. Minmatar Militias are lazy FWers. You have a point, but whats not being talked about is people switching sides simply because amarr has the momentum. No one likes to loose and there is nothing to keep players loyal to one particular faction. People are changing sides simply because the amarr are winning. Players will always take the easiest road to isk and WP/SP.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3008	Posted - 2013.10.14 21:53:00 - [46] - Quote echo47 wrote: True Adamance wrote: da GAND wrote: Not seeing much of a point to go into FW battles if I'm gonna lose every time cuz the Amarr side always has a squad from a corp or two mixed squads communicating with each other and having no organized squads on my side ( Minmitar). THEN ORGANIZE THEM YOURSELF. Gods above its not all that hard. Make a channel, reside in that channel, invite core Minnie FWers to said channel, let word spread of your actions amongst the Minmatar and Amarr Militias.... Channel Grows, good players come, you have your fighting force. As I have said before. Minmatar Militias are lazy FWers. You have a point, but whats not being talked about is people switching sides simply because amarr has the momentum. No one likes to loose and there is nothing to keep players loyal to one particular faction. People are changing sides simply because the amarr are winning. Players will always take the easiest road to isk and WP/SP. Yeah but that happens EVE side too. Remember we are all mercenaries, some of us anyways. I do acknowledge this, but I down right attribute the gains to those who have held out for the weeks and months like Teamplayers Amarr Imperial Crusaders Immortal Retribution PIE Inc The Hectationchires DethDealers Synergy Gaming These are the people who held the line and flipped the districts.
SgtDoughnut Red Star Jr. EoN. 270	Posted - 2013.10.14 22:06:00 - [47] - Quote shaman oga wrote: FW should be personal and not a game to play with your corp or alliance, if you are in a normal corp with members of every race. But there are some roleplaying corps like PIE, that is a legitimate FW corp for example, i've always seen only amarr in their corp. There should be some kind of system to reward your loyality to a race, like the corp and alliance chat channel, there should be a Faction channel. Also, there should not be other events to play only in FW, they are breaking the metagame, most of people just think about their own interest instead of their race and don't care about the districts flip. Scrambler would have been much more useful for me, but i will never play for amarr. You don't have to be Amarr to fight for Amarr, Templar 1 was Caldari.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3009	Posted - 2013.10.14 22:10:00 - [48] - Quote SgtDoughnut wrote: shaman oga wrote: FW should be personal and not a game to play with your corp or alliance, if you are in a normal corp with members of every race. But there are some roleplaying corps like PIE, that is a legitimate FW corp for example, i've always seen only amarr in their corp. There should be some kind of system to reward your loyality to a race, like the corp and alliance chat channel, there should be a Faction channel. Also, there should not be other events to play only in FW, they are breaking the metagame, most of people just think about their own interest instead of their race and don't care about the districts flip. Scrambler would have been much more useful for me, but i will never play for amarr. You don't have to be Amarr to fight for Amarr, Templar 1 was Caldari. Hell no SHAMAN. FW is like everything else in New Eden, all about corporations working together to achieve goals. There is no legitimate FW corps in existence. RP corps are an entirely different thing, we focus on helping the empire militarily, thus we are in FW. Sansha's Nation loyalist RP corps are not able to FW, so they are in Null. You also forget we have PAUX for non Amarrian members who wish to serve the empire. Are you saying their efforts should not be rewarded? FW corps, the real ones farm the warzone for LP, selling the vessels you can buy to make ISK and fight in PvP. Race should never play a factor is loyalty. Loyalty is its own factor.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 770	Posted - 2013.10.14 22:27:00 - [49] - Quote I didn't know before of the existance of your sister corp, i've already answered to your corpmate, we have different toughts about FW.
Patrick57 GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 756	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:02:00 - [50] - Quote I've been told FW doesn't affect anything in EVE by a long time EVE pilot himself. What's the point in fighting anyway? The only thing I can think of, really, is the standings for your Alliance, and those things can be worked around.

True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3046	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:06:00 - [51] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: I've been told FW doesn't affect anything in EVE by a long time EVE pilot himself. What's the point in fighting anyway? The only thing I can think of, really, is the standings for your Alliance, and those things can be worked around. Explain to me how coinciding with our control of 100% warzone in dust within the span of a few hours EVE side system control by the Amarr was 7 systems greater. There are links to what it does. If you don't want to fight then don't, I will fight because I believe I am helping my corp, militia, and faction. They tell me it helps so I'll keep doing it.
Patrick57 GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 758	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:09:00 - [52] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I've been told FW doesn't affect anything in EVE by a long time EVE pilot himself. What's the point in fighting anyway? The only thing I can think of, really, is the standings for your Alliance, and those things can be worked around. Explain to me how coinciding with our control of 100% warzone in dust within the span of a few hours EVE side system control by the Amarr was 7 systems greater. There are links to what it does. If you don't want to fight then don't, I will fight because I believe I am helping my corp, militia, and faction. They tell me it helps so I'll keep doing it. Hey BRO I don't know much about EVE, still a noob player (my own corp mate attacked me >_< but then I got his stuff :D) so I'm just going along what I've been told. Do you have it out for me or something? :'(
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3049	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:13:00 - [53] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I've been told FW doesn't affect anything in EVE by a long time EVE pilot himself. What's the point in fighting anyway? The only thing I can think of, really, is the standings for your Alliance, and those things can be worked around. Explain to me how coinciding with our control of 100% warzone in dust within the span of a few hours EVE side system control by the Amarr was 7 systems greater. There are links to what it does. If you don't want to fight then don't, I will fight because I believe I am helping my corp, militia, and faction. They tell me it helps so I'll keep doing it. Hey BRO I don't know much about EVE, still a noob player (my own corp mate attacked me >_< but then I got his stuff :D) so I'm just going along what I've been told. Do you have it out for me or something? :'( Nope, you are a plenty nice guy, great squaddy an all around good player. Recent comments about PIE GD, and so forth have soured my disposition somewhat.
Patrick57 GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 758	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:14:00 - [54] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Patrick57 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I've been told FW doesn't affect anything in EVE by a long time EVE pilot himself. What's the point in fighting anyway? The only thing I can think of, really, is the standings for your Alliance, and those things can be worked around. Explain to me how coinciding with our control of 100% warzone in dust within the span of a few hours EVE side system control by the Amarr was 7 systems greater. There are links to what it does. If you don't want to fight then don't, I will fight because I believe I am helping my corp, militia, and faction. They tell me it helps so I'll keep doing it. Hey BRO I don't know much about EVE, still a noob player (my own corp mate attacked me >_< but then I got his stuff :D) so I'm just going along what I've been told. Do you have it out for me or something? :'( Nope, you are a plenty nice guy, great squaddy an all around good player. Recent comments about PIE GD, and so forth have soured my disposition somewhat. I replied, then edited it, maybe you didn't read it after it was edited.....
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 221	Posted - 2013.10.15 16:31:00 - [55] - Quote The problem, as Aero pointed out on the first page, is that each side attacks equally. I would suggest that attacks happen at a certain rate in each of the two wars, a district is chosen at random (either M/A or G/C), and then who's attacking and who's defending is based on who owns the district. It's a way to approximate that the more districts you own the more you'll end up defending. There's almost certainly a better way to do it, but at least this way should be relatively even-handed. As for what I'd like to see, it would be nice to see more intent in FW. Right now it's random. Whether a planet is owned has consequences EVE-side, but it makes no sense to coordinate with EVE because we can't choose where to attack. I'm not sure how this gets done in the interface or balanced out in terms of availability vs. complexity, but it sure would be nice.
Ku Shala Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore 584	Posted - 2013.10.15 16:40:00 - [56] - Quote JL3Eleven wrote: Shhh don't tell CBJ. Its ok he's MIA coming back SOONGäó
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3122	Posted - 2013.10.15 18:40:00 - [57] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: The problem, as Aero pointed out on the first page, is that each side attacks equally. I would suggest that attacks happen at a certain rate in each of the two wars, a district is chosen at random (either M/A or G/C), and then who's attacking and who's defending is based on who owns the district. It's a way to approximate that the more districts you own the more you'll end up defending. There's almost certainly a better way to do it, but at least this way should be relatively even-handed. As for what I'd like to see, it would be nice to see more intent in FW. Right now it's random. Whether a planet is owned has consequences EVE-side, but it makes no sense to coordinate with EVE because we can't choose where to attack. I'm not sure how this gets done in the interface or balanced out in terms of availability vs. complexity, but it sure would be nice. That is my suggestion. A sliding scale for combat matches. When X side is winning they generate only a couple of offensive contracts per hour compared to Y faction who is losing and generates a modified number of Offensive contracts to represent the MCC they have able to be deployed, which aren't already defending districts. This way Late Game FW, domination of the warzone comes down to winning specific offensive contracts rather than crushing the enemy team under the weight of a large number of offensive contracts. What most Minmatar FW players forget is I suffered through this for a month or more, they have suffered under this system less than a week.


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