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Timothy Reaper WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 438	Posted - 2013.10.04 23:51:00 - [1] - Quote I've seen way too many threads lately by players who apparently think that their 20 kills are more important than the work of the dedicated men and women in yellow that, by providing ammo, revives and repairs, help make it possible to get those 20 kills. But in every pile of crap dumped on the forums there may exist a kernel of truth. We've all seen it; you run all the way to the supply depot because you ran out of ammo only to find it covered in nanohives and uplinks. This was not done by logis! A real logi kows that the best place for ammo resupply is near the fight; that way their team is able to hold the enemy at bay or even push them away. As for the uplinks, do you remember that old saying about eggs and baskets? If all your uplinks are in throwing distance of the supply depot, all it will take is a couple of flux grenades or a Precision Strike and you team has to work their way from the nearest CRU. Another problem with this is the lag it causes. Too much junk piled in a small area makes the frame rate slow down. It was so bad in one match that a member of my squad started reffering to the area around the supply depot as 'The Hall of Lag'. No, this was not done by logis, it was done by someone rapidly switching fits to chuck out as much equipment as possible in the hopes of skimming some war points off people headed towards the supply depot anyway. True, the people doing these things may be wearing a logistics suit, but they're not logis; they're just using it because of the equipment slots. So, how can this problem be fixed? I have a couple of ideas: For nanohives, make it so they won't activate within x meters of the supply depot, with a possible exception for repair-only nanohives. For drop uplinks, make it so they will not activate within x meters of each other. If you place your uplink down too close to an active uplink, yours will remain inactive until the other uplink is destroyed. TLDR: Quit trying to gimp the logis! Instead, try suggesting some ways to discourage the real problem: 'supply depot spam'.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 155	Posted - 2013.10.05 04:38:00 - [2] - Quote I support this message
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4404	Posted - 2013.10.05 04:48:00 - [3] - Quote I'm no logibro, but I endorse this thread.
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1081	Posted - 2013.10.05 05:47:00 - [4] - Quote Unlike Mr. Tosch here, I AM a dedicated Logi (Also a pilot, Assault, Scout, and Heavy! :D), and I say yay to this. Another problem is the stupid freaking Medic fit. If this doesn't happen once per match, it's a good day: -Get killed by AR, and then guy who killed you gets sniped. -Triage Unit 5 meters away and no enemies nearby. -Triage Unit 1 meter away and still no enemies. -Turns out he was just getting over your body so he could get to the supply depot on the other side of the room. -Triage Unit within 0 meters. -Looks like he was just leaving the room. 90% of Gallente/Minmatar blueberries run that suit because it has an SMG on it, and we all know it. I'd like it if maybe CCP switched out the injector for a rep tool? Honestly, they're easier to use than a Nanite Injector, and people don't feel like cutting you if you don't rez them. :D
ALPHA DECRIPTER Dragon-Empire 565	Posted - 2013.10.05 06:47:00 - [5] - Quote I sometimes will drop some hives near the depot but for good enough reason. I have a sniper fit that has a compact hive for one. I'm not about to run into danger with a scout sniper just to rep/supply my teammates (call me when you need a decoy though lol). And 2 I have a MLT hive on my starter AV fit. Why not throw it down as I'm planning out my next move? Why is all this ok? lol I'm not a logi so I have to agree with you 100% on that point. As a scout I utilize uplinks and may place one near the supply depot for to increase our odds of holding it. @Ghost +1. I do in fact keep that set available for it's SMG. I will rez allies when they request it or if the area is clear but I would much rather prefer a rep tool. `Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST.
Meeko Fent DUST University Ivy League 1066	Posted - 2013.10.05 07:04:00 - [6] - Quote My issue isn't with the logis capability to logi, it's that, due to the fact that logis are given more slots, they are basically mega assaults. While at STD, this issue is less apparent, however, looking at proto or ADV, logis win in the HP/slots battle most definitely. From my memory, I remember the Gal logi having 5 lows, and 3 highs, whereas its assault counterpart, (the one that is supposed to be dealing/taking the damage!) has a 3/4 setup. Why the logi needs the extra low, I do not know, but they do. Even though, due to its bonus, it actually should have either less or similar slots to its assault version (It doesn't need to fit a repper.) Normalize the specialization hi/lo slot layouts. If the logi has 3/5, the assault should have the same thing. The special slots and the bonuses should make out the difference from logi to assault. Assault- +Sidearm +Combat Oriented bonuses -Few equipment -Less opportunities for war point accruation Logistics +Many equipment +Somewhat more flexible due to above -No sidearm -Less combat capabilities then the Assault. tl;dr (and stuff I didn't feel like write a paragraph about!), Normalize Slots, and all other base stats between Logi and Assault. Change the sidearm, bonuses and equipment slots to tailor more towards the support or the combat archetype.
Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 39	Posted - 2013.10.05 07:07:00 - [7] - Quote Artificer Ghost wrote: Unlike Mr. Tosch here, I AM a dedicated Logi (Also a pilot, Assault, Scout, and Heavy! :D), and I say yay to this. Another problem is the stupid freaking Medic fit. If this doesn't happen once per match, it's a good day: -Get killed by AR, and then guy who killed you gets sniped. -Triage Unit 5 meters away and no enemies nearby. -Triage Unit 1 meter away and still no enemies. -Turns out he was just getting over your body so he could get to the supply depot on the other side of the room. -Triage Unit within 0 meters. -Looks like he was just leaving the room. 90% of Amarr/Caldari blueberries run that suit because it has an SMG on it, and we all know it. I'd like it if maybe CCP switched out the injector for a rep tool? Honestly, they're easier to use than a Nanite Injector, and people don't feel like cutting you if you don't rez them. :D sorry have to edit and there you go, correct races inserted no need to thank me.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 151	Posted - 2013.10.05 07:41:00 - [8] - Quote I honestly haven't encountered this, except in one map, the new one where the there's a giant hole above the null cannon which is like the only open point that's not out on the street and the supply depot is underground, I'll put down all nanohives and uplinks that I have just because it's a good strategic position to make a push from, no vehicle access, no orbital threats, just a place to bottleneck anyone guarding the objective. But otherwise I really don't have a problem with this, if people want to get extra points by stealing the resupplies away from the depot then go for it, if there ARE any real logis on the field those hives are going to be irrelevant anyway because there will be equipment where it's needed, I don't see why there's a need to prevent people from doing something that isn't helping or hindering a fight. I've also never seen too much equipment drop frame rates, ill believe you that it does but that's just a problem with connection speeds and the game server, there can be too much equipment anywhere it doesn't have to be at a supply depot. I really don't hear complaints like this, only once has a person been suspicious of my logistics suit, wondering if I used it as a logi assault, but really I never hear "oh great a logi suit, he's probably not gonna do anything useful or give logis a bad name in some other fashion".
Broonfondle Majikthies Bannana Boat Corp 288	Posted - 2013.10.05 07:51:00 - [9] - Quote As far as farming WP goes I still run a rep tool and most of my corp mates have so much HP I cant even rep 1/4 of their health before the points stop. and I keep going ... and the next squad mate .. and the next .. and still rep the blues Yes I usually get over 1K WP at the end of the match, but point farming? Oh well, you guy's carry on. I'll let my actions speak for themselves. I'm usually too busy to argue.
Timothy Reaper WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 445	Posted - 2013.10.05 10:20:00 - [10] - Quote I've nothing against trying to earn a few extra war points, I'm just concerned that people throwing down everything they have at the supply depot will cause CCP to hit logis with the nerf bat yet again.

Sana Rayya WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 243	Posted - 2013.10.05 11:43:00 - [11] - Quote I supply depot spam all the time. It's only really useful (i.e. productive for farming) if my team is being engaged at or fighting from the supply depot. If there is no real fight going on at the depot, then the WP you earn from spamming are minimal at best. If there is a fight, then that means triage for your teammates, an unlimited source of grenades, and more points for you towards orbitals. As an aside, spamming equipment at a supply depot that is slightly farther away from the action can provide a rally point in case you are overrun, and the nano spam is a good indicator that enemies are not in the area (usually they destroy the hives if they are camping the uplinks there). As to why many logis don't take their best hive suits farther away from the supply depot, I'm going to chalk it up to risk and cost. Proto hives run from about 17-28k ISK apiece, which means if I die in that suit, I'm probably going to go negative in ISK for the match. This is even more problematic if your hive suit is very fragile. So you've got to run from/to the supply depot in a very expensive suit without backup, and if you call in a vehicle, chances are someone will steal it once you deploy your hives. The risk to you only increases as you get farther away from the depot. Now, whether I still classify as a logi is a matter of opinion. Since 1.4 hit I rarely revive/rep people because the HP bars are broken and the scanner has become essential, meaning I only have one slot left for equipment (usually DUs or REs) if I also want nanohives. I will say that I'm in the top 100 for warpoints on the leaderboards with one of the fewest number of kills. If spam is really a problem, fluxes will clear out everything. Just put your own nanohive under you and flux away.
Mortedeamor Internal Rebellion 352	Posted - 2013.10.05 12:22:00 - [12] - Quote not necessarily true..i do that on certain objectives especially if the team is bunkered down their ..it allows me as an amarian logi to swap to my more attack based suit and run with different logi gear for example if i deploy my hives..then run around ine proto logi with md smg flux taking out people and enemy equip, and on top of that im running an injector repper and scanner..as ammo and healing is mostly covered..an if i really wanted to be funny you spamm all the nano with all the uplinks..to deploy mobile resupply spots and healing spots is extremely useful when covering a domination objective. real logi spamming involves revives as revives are the only thing that directly rewards logi's for hurting the team. my nano and uplink fields have never caused lag for me or my team you should check ur crummy Internet bro every other form of logi directly benefits the team no matter how you look at it..the only exception revive spamming ...lowers clone delays teammates from spawning makes the match shorter less fun(as if dust needs help with that)
Mortedeamor Internal Rebellion 352	Posted - 2013.10.05 12:24:00 - [13] - Quote Timothy Reaper wrote: I've nothing against trying to earn a few extra war points, I'm just concerned that people throwing down everything they have at the supply depot will cause CCP to hit logis with the nerf bat yet again. ccp already nerfed hives they have an absurd delay for deployment and the resupply one have a delay based on what you resupplying nanos really dont like to give you nades..hives are supposed to be used this way..it allows logi's to multi task.
Timothy Reaper WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 448	Posted - 2013.10.05 18:49:00 - [14] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Why the logi needs the extra low, I do not know, but they do. Because of the CPU/PG requirements of proto equipment. I have a proto Minmatar logi (4 high/4 low) with an advanced weapon and 4 pieces of advanced equipment and I still have to put a CPU upgrade on the suit, and the PG is at it's limit (and yes, I do have both Electronics and Engineering at level 5). Once I max out my equipment skills I'll have put a PG upgrade on the suit, plus I'll probably have to use a more expensive CPU upgrade. Sana Rayya wrote: If spam is really a problem, fluxes will clear out everything. Just put your own nanohive under you and flux away. Enemy equipment, sure. In fact we'll soon start getting points for this, so we have yet another reason not to put all your stuff in one place. But friendly gear is not destroyed by friendly grenades. Kodomo Jones wrote: I really don't hear complaints like this, only once has a person been suspicious of my logistics suit, wondering if I used it as a logi assault, but really I never hear "oh great a logi suit, he's probably not gonna do anything useful or give logis a bad name in some other fashion". https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1358901 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=110396 Though I must point out, there is a lot of 'logi love' in those threads to counter the mindless hate.
Meeko Fent DUST University Ivy League 1070	Posted - 2013.10.05 19:30:00 - [15] - Quote Timothy Reaper wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Why the logi needs the extra low, I do not know, but they do. Because of the CPU/PG requirements of proto equipment. I have a proto Minmatar logi (4 high/4 low) with an advanced weapon and 4 pieces of advanced equipment and I still have to put a CPU upgrade on the suit, and the PG is at it's limit (and yes, I do have both Electronics and Engineering at level 5). Once I max out my equipment skills I'll have put a PG upgrade on the suit, plus I'll probably have to use a more expensive CPU upgrade Then, that's where CPU and PG reduction bonuses come in. 10% reduction in CPU and PG Usage per level. The blanket bonus they should've had. Then, they can have their tanking mod slots reduced to normal levels.
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 993	Posted - 2013.10.05 20:23:00 - [16] - Quote I can make 2500 wp AVERAGE as a logi. And guess what? I don't have to spam equipment to do so. Just wait for 1.5, I'll be rolling in the wp with the extra bonuses.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1392	Posted - 2013.10.05 20:52:00 - [17] - Quote Logi =/= Logibro. That is all.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 44	Posted - 2013.10.05 21:05:00 - [18] - Quote Artificer Ghost wrote: Unlike Mr. Tosch here, I AM a dedicated Logi (Also a pilot, Assault, Scout, and Heavy! :D), and I say yay to this. Another problem is the stupid freaking Medic fit. If this doesn't happen once per match, it's a good day: -Get killed by AR, and then guy who killed you gets sniped. -Triage Unit 5 meters away and no enemies nearby. -Triage Unit 1 meter away and still no enemies. -Turns out he was just getting over your body so he could get to the supply depot on the other side of the room. -Triage Unit within 0 meters. -Looks like he was just leaving the room. 90% of Gallente/Minmatar blueberries run that suit because it has an SMG on it, and we all know it. I'd like it if maybe CCP switched out the injector for a rep tool? Honestly, they're easier to use than a Nanite Injector, and people don't feel like cutting you if you don't rez them. :D Well the majority of times that I've tried to revive someone and then walked always was because of a certain glitch that prevents you from reviving someone. I even try manually switching to the nanite injector, but unfortunately it doesn't work. A way to counter this glitch (based off my experience) is to make sure that 2-3 people don't try to revive the same person.
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1084	Posted - 2013.10.09 03:36:00 - [19] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Sorry have to edit, and there you go, correct races inserted. No need to thank me. 1) I fixed your grammar in return. :) 2) I am a Gallente, I know the Medic fit has an SMG, and I have no idea why the Minmatar WOULDN'T have an SMG (What having inventing it and all). Maybe it's all races? Hm.
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1084	Posted - 2013.10.09 03:50:00 - [20] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: My issue isn't with the logis capability to logi, it's that, due to the fact that logis are given more slots, they are basically mega assaults. While I'm not completely disagreeing here, they definitely CAN act as Assaults, I just wanted to point out some things: Logistics are meant to be very combat efficient. Even in EVE, the ships that have more Mid Slots (Equipment), also have more Highs and Lows. With less guns, of course. They're meant to be the longest-lasting survivor of a squad. After a firefight, once the bodies are piled up, a good Logistics is supposed to survive long enough to help people recover from the aftermath. The worst Logistics, for example, hide behind a heavy and rep it, soaking up Guardian points and Triage points. Now I'm not going to say that I haven't done that once in a while, but 9/10 times (And I've been "clean" for over a month), it's for BSoTT testing. However, a good Logistics, like I said, builds up survivability instead of tank and damage. I fit Damage Mods only because I don't have Armor Hardeners for my High Slots (Or something armor-based for Highs. Pretty please, CCP?). Gallente Logis, using your example, should be fitting Armor Repairs and at most 2 Complex Armor Plates. If people walk faster than you, it's hard to rep them. Right, I'm done. I'm sorry. TL;DR, only crappy Logis go Assault Logi. Noting that Gallente and Amarrians focus more on the combat-efficient part of the spectrum.

Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 267	Posted - 2013.10.09 04:18:00 - [21] - Quote I support the OP.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1647	Posted - 2013.10.09 08:01:00 - [22] - Quote I think the logi suit is more or less fine as is. I don't have much of a problem with anyone farming WP either. It hasn'tgiven me any noticeable lag and it's much better than someone AFKing for points. I'm also fine with the logistics suits being able to be fit to fight in combat. It makes it easier for people without enough SP to play a logistics role and still have options besides just entirely relying on support for WP. The Amarr logi is a beast when it comes to being a murder-logi, though.
fawkuima juggalo Hollowed Kings 71	Posted - 2013.10.09 10:25:00 - [23] - Quote i agree with everything you said UNTIL the drop link thing. you sound like a logi so you should know how much tha would restrict the abilities of up links
Beeeees KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 262	Posted - 2013.10.09 11:50:00 - [24] - Quote This is a non-issue. I dont even understand why you felt the need to write that down. Hive spamming ensures instant ammo replentishment, supply depots are important logistic and strategic points. If you however feel the need to spam a square meter in the middle of nowhere with hives and uplinks, more power to you, maybe its your strategy. Maybe its also your strategy to deprive your own team of useful ressources.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1647	Posted - 2013.10.09 15:24:00 - [25] - Quote Beeeees wrote: This is a non-issue. I dont even understand why you felt the need to write that down. Hive spamming ensures instant ammo replentishment, supply depots are important logistic and strategic points. If you however feel the need to spam a square meter in the middle of nowhere with hives and uplinks, more power to you, maybe its your strategy. Maybe its also your strategy to deprive your own team of useful ressources. That's a good point about spamming the supply depot with hives. It seems more like "reinforcement" than just straight up spam from that point of view.
Timothy Reaper WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 460	Posted - 2013.10.10 05:21:00 - [26] - Quote I personally find it more annoying than game-breaking, and that's because of the lag that can happen with too much crap in one spot. But there are players that think KDR > everything else, and when they don't make top of the leader board they throw a fit. Not stopping to think that strategically placed uplinks and nanohives are more likely to be used than all the junk piled by the supply depot, they see all that stuff, add 2 + 2 and come up with "bread" and blame logis. The logistics class has taken enough hits from the nerf bat as it is, so if 'supply depot spam' bothers you that much find ways to 'fix' it that will not severely affect logis.
Meeko Fent DUST University Ivy League 1108	Posted - 2013.10.10 13:07:00 - [27] - Quote What your saying isn't the issue any of us have with logis. It's the fact, due to imbalanced slot layouts, that logis have way more EHP, and therefore preform assault roles better then assaults. The nerfs that have been proposed really don't hurt your class at all. It hurts the assault logis.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 101	Posted - 2013.10.10 13:15:00 - [28] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: My issue isn't with the logis capability to logi, it's that, due to the fact that logis are given more slots, they are basically mega assaults. While at STD, this issue is less apparent, however, looking at proto or ADV, logis win in the HP/slots battle most definitely. From my memory, I remember the Gal logi having 5 lows, and 3 highs, whereas its assault counterpart, (the one that is supposed to be dealing/taking the damage!) has a 3/4 setup. Why the logi needs the extra low, I do not know, but they do. Even though, due to its bonus, it actually should have either less or similar slots to its assault version (It doesn't need to fit a repper.) Normalize the specialization hi/lo slot layouts. If the logi has 3/5, the assault should have the same thing. The special slots and the bonuses should make out the difference from logi to assault. Assault- +Sidearm +Combat Oriented bonuses -Few equipment -Less opportunities for war point accruation Logistics +Many equipment +Somewhat more flexible due to above -No sidearm -Less combat capabilities then the Assault. tl;dr (and stuff I didn't feel like write a paragraph about!), Normalize Slots, and all other base stats between Logi and Assault. Change the sidearm, bonuses and equipment slots to tailor more towards the support or the combat archetype. You do realize taht we are given those slots for cpu and pg upgrades right? I've yet to meet someone (other that callogis) who can fit proto equipment with complex extenders and a proto weapon. This seems more like the "something's beating assualt, NERF!" post also we have a disadvantage at CQC with the lack of sidearms and everyone tries to kill us first no matter what so I don't see why we need rebalancing.
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1087	Posted - 2013.10.10 13:32:00 - [29] - Quote Atiim wrote: You do realize taht we are given those slots for cpu and pg upgrades right? Looking at the base CPU/PG stats, we already have more than enough. Like I said, we're supposed to increase survivability. At higher levels, you may think we need to put on some CPU/PG upgrades, but the truth is that we're supposed to be levelling up Core Upgrades AND Engineering/Electronics along with our suit level, so we can fit prototype equipment and weapons. I see many many MANY Proto-Logis running Duvolle ARs, pulling out their Core Repair Tool to heal 2 people at once and then throwing a Core Locus Grenade at me. Everyone who runs Prototype C-Logi with a Duvolle, Core Locus Grenades, all Proto Equipment and Complex Shield Extenders definitely deserves every death they get. I mean it. Every single one. EDIT - After reading the rest of your post, I realize that it looks like you run a long-range weapon. ARs do more damage in CQC (Being Gallente Weapons and all...). You can also fit Shotguns to OHK someone, or maybe an SMG. Logistics are just as balanced when it comes to CQC as say, an Assault. I run a Standard AR with 2 Damage Mods (Armor Tanker, nothing for those Highs), Proficiency 3, and Rapid Reload 3. When I'm running Logistics I usually win engagements because I stack 3 Enhanced Armor Plates. Bringing my eHP to over 600. It's all about surviving long enough to heal your allies, or if you're focused more on Combat (Like the Gallente and Amarr Logis), to kill the other guy.
Xaviah Reaper Nyain San EoN. 107	Posted - 2013.10.10 13:49:00 - [30] - Quote An interesting fix, would be to restrict hives and rep tools specifically to logi suits



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