Tldr: no problem with MD, just stop the camera shake opponent side you can maintain aim on MD user

Though I imagine this covers the AR perspective as well.

The MD is a weapon that is supposed to be used for area denial, harassing chokepoints, etc. Instead it is used as a weapon that can effectively beat any opponent in CQC, provided he has enough buffer HP and good movement, even if the MD user gets dropped on first. It is overshadowed only by a pre-nerf flaylock.

Let's take a look at why, so that the real issues can be addressed here instead of a blanket nerf that pisses people off and solves nothing.

From the HMG perspective, I use a weapon that requires I get generously close and actually aim. Something that is difficult enough in its own right when you're a fat suit, but I digress. My damage is only applied when my shots actually land and I have to maintain a constant stream of accurate fire the entire time to kill my opponent before he kills me. When a MD splashes near me, my camera will shake and my aim will be displaced, causing me to lose significant DPS as well as take damage.

From the MD perspective, aiming is not really required in this situation. I am faster than the heavy, or the assault if I choose to fit myself out that way. So I can close the distance easily and just shoot on the floor. Hitting the floor does not result in a substantial loss of DPS on my part, but renders him completely unable to aim. Though it takes me quite some time to actually kill a well buffered suit, it is a fact that after the first shot each successive one will render him unable to re-track me with any real significance, so I easily win the DPS war. When he realizes he can't win head-on and attempts to run, I will laugh as he runs around corners because my splash will catch his feet and kill him.


So the real problem? It's not that the weapon rewards damage for failing to hit your target dead on. That's some elitist BS by people who simply want to play AR 514. Splash damage weapons are fine in games and there is nothing wrong with specialist weapons doing this. The real problem is the camera displacement which makes it almost impossible to orient yourself and fight back. The fact that the weapon requires no real effort to use is insulting on top of it. All you truly have to do to win any fight with a MD is land the first hit and make sure you keep moving. The direction really doesn't matter, no advanced strafing tactics are necessary. Land the first hit and you're home free.

There are people out there who put a lot of effort into their strafing/tracking game, and to have a weapon which completely trumps all of that effort by default is a large problem.

The solution is to reduce or remove the camera displacement on hit. The damage from the MD is fine as it is and should be left alone if its going to actually serve its intended role as area denial. There is absolutely no need for it to have camera displacement however. This does not serve the purpose of area denial or harassment, and allows the MD user to basically just charge anyone he feels like and take their lunch money without any real effort.


Thank you for your time, I look forward to the many ignorant replies of the people who did not actually read any of this and have no skill whatsoever.

Militia Heavy suit HP = ~400/400

MD Splash damage = 100-150

MD Clip Size = 6-8

Heavy whining about MDs - Priceless.

I bet your school bus had really clean windows.

Militia Heavy suit HP = ~400/400

MD Splash damage = 100-150

MD Clip Size = 6-8

Heavy whining about MDs - Priceless.

The solution is to reduce or remove the camera displacement on hit. The damage from the MD is fine as it is and should be left alone if its going to actually serve its intended role as area denial.

And there is the ignorant reply I referred to at the bottom of my opening post.

Had you bothered to read the actual post itself, you will see I had noted that damage from the MD was not, in any way shape or form, the problem. Good job making yourself look stupid, though.

I believe his point was that once you remove camera shake you completely alter the balance of power.

The MD could begin the engagement and the Heavy HMG would spin around and hose him down and kill him.

This act of "balancing" would in fact neuter the MD's ability to keep a heavy out of an area. The heavy could stroll into CQ absorbing all the MD rounds, then hose down the MD user trying to hold the area.

The disorientation of camera shake and smoke is a crucial element of its ability to act as area denial. Remove that and anyone who can either sprint through the area or absorb the damage can traverse it unimpeded.

Though I imagine this covers the AR perspective as well.

The MD is a weapon that is supposed to be used for area denial, harassing chokepoints, etc. Instead it is used as a weapon that can effectively beat any opponent in CQC, provided he has enough buffer HP and good movement, even if the MD user gets dropped on first. It is overshadowed only by a pre-nerf flaylock.

Let's take a look at why, so that the real issues can be addressed here instead of a blanket nerf that pisses people off and solves nothing.

From the HMG perspective, I use a weapon that requires I get generously close and actually aim. Something that is difficult enough in its own right when you're a fat suit, but I digress. My damage is only applied when my shots actually land and I have to maintain a constant stream of accurate fire the entire time to kill my opponent before he kills me. When a MD splashes near me, my camera will shake and my aim will be displaced, causing me to lose significant DPS as well as take damage.

From the MD perspective, aiming is not really required in this situation. I am faster than the heavy, or the assault if I choose to fit myself out that way. So I can close the distance easily and just shoot on the floor. Hitting the floor does not result in a substantial loss of DPS on my part, but renders him completely unable to aim. Though it takes me quite some time to actually kill a well buffered suit, it is a fact that after the first shot each successive one will render him unable to re-track me with any real significance, so I easily win the DPS war. When he realizes he can't win head-on and attempts to run, I will laugh as he runs around corners because my splash will catch his feet and kill him.


So the real problem? It's not that the weapon rewards damage for failing to hit your target dead on. That's some elitist BS by people who simply want to play AR 514. Splash damage weapons are fine in games and there is nothing wrong with specialist weapons doing this. The real problem is the camera displacement which makes it almost impossible to orient yourself and fight back. The fact that the weapon requires no real effort to use is insulting on top of it. All you truly have to do to win any fight with a MD is land the first hit and make sure you keep moving. The direction really doesn't matter, no advanced strafing tactics are necessary. Land the first hit and you're home free.

There are people out there who put a lot of effort into their strafing/tracking game, and to have a weapon which completely trumps all of that effort by default is a large problem.

The solution is to reduce or remove the camera displacement on hit. The damage from the MD is fine as it is and should be left alone if its going to actually serve its intended role as area denial. There is absolutely no need for it to have camera displacement however. This does not serve the purpose of area denial or harassment, and allows the MD user to basically just charge anyone he feels like and take their lunch money without any real effort.


Thank you for your time, I look forward to the many ignorant replies of the people who did not actually read any of this and have no skill whatsoever.

of course no one but a md user would agree with you on this i think ..people have a tendency to cry whenever they're is something that kills them doesn't matter if it's op or not.. i also think ccp's falloff idea will fix the md issue.

Militia Heavy suit HP = ~400/400

MD Splash damage = 100-150

MD Clip Size = 6-8

Heavy whining about MDs - Priceless.

Damn right they did. To bad my piece of trash class mates couldn't keep things clean

You have no skill, you need more Bacon.

Get Bacon Scrub.

you obviously do not understand the problem of the MD.

try using the MD on an armor tanked suit with low mobility.
then try the MD on a shield tanked suit with high mobility and stamina mods.

the first one is going have hard time to find the preferred range of engagement. all you have to do is run away and lob grenades behind you, he will either chase and die from grenades in the face, or you have range advantage with your AR and you just kill him the old fashioned way. this will happen all the time, all your targets will bullrush you thus you kill yourself or they run away then kill you at range or throw a nade in your face.

now try the second suit and suddenly it is a world of difference. you can dictate range, bunny hop around for quite long and fire at the enemey feet (even around obstacles while they try to catch you) without bothering about precise aiming. no one can escape you and you can run away when something goes wrong. add hit detection issues and shield recharge delay bug and it is a real pain to defeat such a setup.

I tried out the MD recently, on a new character with no skills other than advanced mass driver, so it's all militia gear with an EXO-5 mass driver. I usually do this kind of thing to learn more about the weaknesses of a weapon and how to counter it.

What I mean is... The mass driver is one of the very few weapons that is able to shoot over obstacles and on top of platforms, and it could be used as effective area denial. I've managed to get a couple of kills shooting up on platforms or above obstacles, and those kills felt awesome. But all on all, attempting this just seems like a waste of shells, because you are much more likely to get a kill by just going into a close combat encounter.

I don't believe you spent much time with the MD.

The firing arc was flattened significantly which almost eliminates its ability to fire over cover of any kind or hit the floor of any surface that is above the user.

I'd rather have that arc back as the current flat fight makes area denial very difficult unless you have a height advantage.

I do not get the point of your first sentence.

I agree that a bigger arc would also be beneficial for that role (It's pretty flat right now, but not impossible to shoot on top of platforms or above low obstacles). As is, it would be pointless though, because it would still be a waste of ammunition not to simply shoot it at targets right in front of you.

My point is that you hold out the ability to strike over cover as a large enough benefit that it should trade away its defining characteristic of confusion and disorientation for it, when in fact it is minuscule.

If you think that the current arc facilitates shooting over cover you haven't been using it long.

Define scrub without using Google. What you use? An assault rifle?
Forgot the assault rifles requires skill.


Oh wait.....



1.4lolaimassist.

No you misunderstood, I said that this would make a more interesting role for the MD, but it would require some tweaks to make it viable (I mentioned this in my concrete suggestions, which you didn't quote). Right now the MD can fill that role to some extend, but I completely agree that it wouldn't be feasible as is.

I'm not saying "nerf the close combat capabilities and it will become a viable long range / area denial weapon", I'm saying "nerf the close combat capabilities and then increase it's power to make it a more viable long range / area denial weapon". Then it would do what I'd expect a grenade launcher to do, and it certainly would require more tactical gameplay than "get close to a target and start spamming".

That said, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with keeping it as it is. It might require a few tweaks to keep it in line, but it doesn't seem too far off. However, in that case it's not ever going to be a weapon that requires a ton of skill to use effectively. Even a shotgun is far more hit and miss. And it should go without saying that a weapon that is a lot more forgivable than others (not to mention resistant towards lag issues) cannot be at the top of the power curve without causing significant balance problems in the long term.

Ah, I misunderstood you incorrectly...

I maintain that without the confusion aspect it wouldn't be an area denial weapon at any range. People would just rush or tank it and get through. The longer the range the easier that task would be as it takes several seconds to lob a round at maximum range.

It's a challenge and great fun to fire at long range, but I couldn't run it as a logi if that were all it was good for. With no sidearm it would mean zero protection in mid to close ranges where I might be trying to play medic. Basically it would become some sort of long-range artillery weapon that relies upon luck for a kill.

And let's face it, there really isn't any need for area denial at the moment. This game is all about slaying and KDR.
Yes, on occasion I'll try to position myself such that I can scare the enemy away from an objective (usually up on a building top), but it doesn't take long before a sniper or FG chases me off.

And there is the ignorant reply I referred to at the bottom of my opening post.

Had you bothered to read the actual post itself, you will see I had noted that damage from the MD was not, in any way shape or form, the problem. Good job making yourself look stupid, though.

You forget that Explosives deal 130% damage to Armor.


So that 100 would be 130. That 150 would be 195.


You could totally take down a heavy with 6 to 8 shots.

Here's a novel idea: Stop complaining about the MD until AFTER the armor buff. My feeling is that it will even out a lot of the issues people have with it. It has already been stated that armor will be buffed, so why bother wasting the 18th wall of text to complain about an anti-armor weapon until we see how a significant and known forthcoming adjustment affects things?

Buff armor plox.