DUST Search - Himiko's fair and magical comments on the MD from the HMG perspective.

Skihids wrote:

Csikszent Mihalyi wrote:

Skihids wrote:

Csikszent Mihalyi wrote:

I tried out the MD recently, on a new character with no skills other than advanced mass driver, so it's all militia gear with an EXO-5 mass driver. I usually do this kind of thing to learn more about the weaknesses of a weapon and how to counter it.

What I mean is... The mass driver is one of the very few weapons that is able to shoot over obstacles and on top of platforms, and it could be used as effective area denial. I've managed to get a couple of kills shooting up on platforms or above obstacles, and those kills felt awesome. But all on all, attempting this just seems like a waste of shells, because you are much more likely to get a kill by just going into a close combat encounter.

I don't believe you spent much time with the MD.

The firing arc was flattened significantly which almost eliminates its ability to fire over cover of any kind or hit the floor of any surface that is above the user.

I'd rather have that arc back as the current flat fight makes area denial very difficult unless you have a height advantage.

I do not get the point of your first sentence.

I agree that a bigger arc would also be beneficial for that role (It's pretty flat right now, but not impossible to shoot on top of platforms or above low obstacles). As is, it would be pointless though, because it would still be a waste of ammunition not to simply shoot it at targets right in front of you.

My point is that you hold out the ability to strike over cover as a large enough benefit that it should trade away its defining characteristic of confusion and disorientation for it, when in fact it is minuscule.

If you think that the current arc facilitates shooting over cover you haven't been using it long.


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Csikszent Mihalyi DUST University Ivy League 46	Posted - 2013.08.16 14:44:00 - [1] - Quote I tried out the MD recently, on a new character with no skills other than advanced mass driver, so it's all militia gear with an EXO-5 mass driver. I usually do this kind of thing to learn more about the weaknesses of a weapon and how to counter it. I was really surprised about how effective it is in close to midrange, and couldn't identify any significant downside, other than its limited ammo count. It's almost like an explosive mid range shotgun that requires very little aiming. I was even able to solo a PROTO heavy by using just a little bit of cover and without a lot of effort. That really didn't feel right. I do not know if the mass driver is OP in terms of overall effectiveness, but I do wonder about its intended role. It's fun if you can basically go into any close combat encounter and basically be guaranteed a win... But is that really what a grenade launcher should excel at? What I mean is... The mass driver is one of the very few weapons that is able to shoot over obstacles and on top of platforms, and it could be used as effective area denial. I've managed to get a couple of kills shooting up on platforms or above obstacles, and those kills felt awesome. But all on all, attempting this just seems like a waste of shells, because you are much more likely to get a kill by just going into a close combat encounter. So yes, the mass driver could probably be balanced quite easily by reducing this screen shake or tweaking it's damage properties. But it won't change a thing about how the mass driver is used, and to me this seems a bit like wasted potential. What I would do is this: - Add a minimum flight time for grenades, if they touch the ground earlier, they bounce until that minimum time is reached or they hit a target (think Quake 3 grenade launcher). - Because the above would make the mass driver pretty weak, balance it out by actually _increasing_ it's power, blast radius, and/or clip size. The idea is to make the MD unsuitable for close range encounters, but reward tactical use and skill-ful shots over long distance. IMO this would give it a much more interesting role than just being a win-button in close encounters.
Csikszent Mihalyi DUST University Ivy League 47	Posted - 2013.08.16 16:33:00 - [2] - Quote Skihids wrote: Csikszent Mihalyi wrote: I tried out the MD recently, on a new character with no skills other than advanced mass driver, so it's all militia gear with an EXO-5 mass driver. I usually do this kind of thing to learn more about the weaknesses of a weapon and how to counter it. What I mean is... The mass driver is one of the very few weapons that is able to shoot over obstacles and on top of platforms, and it could be used as effective area denial. I've managed to get a couple of kills shooting up on platforms or above obstacles, and those kills felt awesome. But all on all, attempting this just seems like a waste of shells, because you are much more likely to get a kill by just going into a close combat encounter. I don't believe you spent much time with the MD. The firing arc was flattened significantly which almost eliminates its ability to fire over cover of any kind or hit the floor of any surface that is above the user. I'd rather have that arc back as the current flat fight makes area denial very difficult unless you have a height advantage. I do not get the point of your first sentence. I agree that a bigger arc would also be beneficial for that role (It's pretty flat right now, but not impossible to shoot on top of platforms or above low obstacles). As is, it would be pointless though, because it would still be a waste of ammunition not to simply shoot it at targets right in front of you.
Csikszent Mihalyi DUST University Ivy League 47	Posted - 2013.08.16 17:55:00 - [3] - Quote Skihids wrote: Csikszent Mihalyi wrote: Skihids wrote: Csikszent Mihalyi wrote: I tried out the MD recently, on a new character with no skills other than advanced mass driver, so it's all militia gear with an EXO-5 mass driver. I usually do this kind of thing to learn more about the weaknesses of a weapon and how to counter it. What I mean is... The mass driver is one of the very few weapons that is able to shoot over obstacles and on top of platforms, and it could be used as effective area denial. I've managed to get a couple of kills shooting up on platforms or above obstacles, and those kills felt awesome. But all on all, attempting this just seems like a waste of shells, because you are much more likely to get a kill by just going into a close combat encounter. I don't believe you spent much time with the MD. The firing arc was flattened significantly which almost eliminates its ability to fire over cover of any kind or hit the floor of any surface that is above the user. I'd rather have that arc back as the current flat fight makes area denial very difficult unless you have a height advantage. I do not get the point of your first sentence. I agree that a bigger arc would also be beneficial for that role (It's pretty flat right now, but not impossible to shoot on top of platforms or above low obstacles). As is, it would be pointless though, because it would still be a waste of ammunition not to simply shoot it at targets right in front of you. My point is that you hold out the ability to strike over cover as a large enough benefit that it should trade away its defining characteristic of confusion and disorientation for it, when in fact it is minuscule. If you think that the current arc facilitates shooting over cover you haven't been using it long. No you misunderstood, I said that this would make a more interesting role for the MD, but it would require some tweaks to make it viable (I mentioned this in my concrete suggestions, which you didn't quote). Right now the MD can fill that role to some extend, but I completely agree that it wouldn't be feasible as is. I'm not saying "nerf the close combat capabilities and it will become a viable long range / area denial weapon", I'm saying "nerf the close combat capabilities and then increase it's power to make it a more viable long range / area denial weapon". Then it would do what I'd expect a grenade launcher to do, and it certainly would require more tactical gameplay than "get close to a target and start spamming". That said, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with keeping it as it is. It might require a few tweaks to keep it in line, but it doesn't seem too far off. However, in that case it's not ever going to be a weapon that requires a ton of skill to use effectively. Even a shotgun is far more hit and miss. And it should go without saying that a weapon that is a lot more forgivable than others (not to mention resistant towards lag issues) cannot be at the top of the power curve without causing significant balance problems in the long term.
Csikszent Mihalyi DUST University Ivy League 48	Posted - 2013.08.16 18:33:00 - [4] - Quote Skihids wrote: Ah, I misunderstood you incorrectly... I maintain that without the confusion aspect it wouldn't be an area denial weapon at any range. People would just rush or tank it and get through. The longer the range the easier that task would be as it takes several seconds to lob a round at maximum range. It's a challenge and great fun to fire at long range, but I couldn't run it as a logi if that were all it was good for. With no sidearm it would mean zero protection in mid to close ranges where I might be trying to play medic. Basically it would become some sort of long-range artillery weapon that relies upon luck for a kill. And let's face it, there really isn't any need for area denial at the moment. This game is all about slaying and KDR. Yes, on occasion I'll try to position myself such that I can scare the enemy away from an objective (usually up on a building top), but it doesn't take long before a sniper or FG chases me off. Minimum flight time could be used to balance different varieties. So there could be a variety which has a long flight time and is very powerful, which could be useful combined with a strong sidearm or commando suit. Another variant could have less power (maybe same as current, or just slightly higher) but a very short flight time, so you could use it almost like the current MD. If the right balance is found, it could still be a very effective weapon in midrange encounters, without being an instant win on shotgun range, where it's really not possible to miss with a mass driver (aside from suffering an epileptic attack).
Csikszent Mihalyi DUST University Ivy League 49	Posted - 2013.08.17 14:15:00 - [5] - Quote J Lav, I think you overlooked one important factor: You don't have to kill a heavy with one clip. If you get most of your shots landed, the heavy is going to be in dire straits no matter what. Whether it's a teammate who finally takes him down, you switch to your SMG, or take cover for a clip reload, there are plenty of ways to finish the deal. Heavies are slow and disadvantaged in that it's easy to get the jump on them, double them, or dictate range. They also have the hardest time to dodge MD rounds fired from a longer range, where the MD user is already untouchable to the HMG. Unless you meet them in open terrain, it's very easy to shoot them behind corners, without ever even being in line of sight. Pretty much every other weapon has to deal with the problem that you can't stay in close range and line of sight of a heavy and win a firefight (where "win" can mean to force a retreat). Why exactly does the MD require this extra advantage? I have no love for heavies, never play them, and don't have a single SP in it. But I also noticed how easy it is go with the MD against heavies, even at their optimal range (and I'm not even using flux grenades). This just doesn't feel right.
Csikszent Mihalyi DUST University Ivy League 49	Posted - 2013.08.17 15:28:00 - [6] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Here's a novel idea: Stop complaining about the MD until AFTER the armor buff. My feeling is that it will even out a lot of the issues people have with it. It has already been stated that armor will be buffed, so why bother wasting the 18th wall of text to complain about an anti-armor weapon until we see how a significant and known forthcoming adjustment affects things? I don't understand the logic of this. The MD is effective against everyone, but particularly effective against armour tanks. Buffing armour tanks is likely to lead to more armour tanking, so if anything the MD is going to become more effective.