Screw forgegun sniping

If armor will become equal to shields, wouldn't we be able to fit armor-modules in high slots too? But interessting concept...

Mmmh I guess it comes down to how armortanking would be balanced as armor-modules take up place for other modules that could be used in the low slots too,... But well I don't won't to turn this in a armor VS shield argument...let's see what other people think.

It seems to me, that if youGÇÖre running any sort of front line combat type of fit (non sniper in other words) and you're using damage mods that you're doing it wrong.
The only time damage mods are better than shields is if you're using a heavy.

Someone tell me why I'm wrong. I'd like to know.

This seems to reduce damage output for non-damage roles... I like it actually.
On the down side, players that snipe with scout suites would be kinda pi***d as sniping is a bit UP unless you are using a charged sniper.
Overall I give it a +1

---

`Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST .

Thanks I'm glad it makes sense.

Oh and you're right I think there are some snipers in my corp/alliance which may hang me up by my toes for suggesting this

~Cross

People already complain about assaults enough. The heavies will scream themselves skinny.

People already complain about assaults enough. The heavies will scream themselves skinny.

It seems to me, that if youGÇÖre running any sort of front line combat type of fit (non sniper in other words) and you're using damage mods that you're doing it wrong.
The only time damage mods are better than shields is if you're using a heavy.

Someone tell me why I'm wrong. I'd like to know.

I don't get your two 'snipers have a choice sections'

Also, I think my suggestion is elegant and appropriate:

What you want is something viable for logibros to favor their armor resiliance, but doesn't make them better slayers necessarily.

Therefore:

Ancillary Armor Booster -

- highslot module (has to sacrifice slots for damage mods)
- Multiplies the effect of armor repair rate by 25% to 45% per module (basically like a regulator)

So trading 2 highslots could effectively free up a lowslot for either a utility module or more eHP. The trade-off for resiliance would make the most sense for logibros who need it as they are scrambling around the front lines and who are already getting a good starting base armor repair rate.

Armor slayers who would want to be doing high alpha damage (amarr scrambler/laser users) wouldn't want to sacrifice the damage mods for regen. Their damage is based on alpha strikes anyway, so they need to get in and out. This means HP resiliance isn't as important as buffer.

My fundamental disagreement with you Cross is it seems like you want both armor and shield to be equal at close range. I think this would throw off balance on a number of levels. See my new Wu Xing post.

Armor suits (high armor slot layout) should have the option of using their lowslots of eHP or speed/stealth and highslots for damage. So they get to pick 2 of those options. Armor slot logi's get a third option to use their slots for added fitting ability.

Shield suits have the option of turning their abundant high slots into a either regen, buffer, or damage fit and basically can pick 2 of those. They also have the option of choosing a glass cannon fit using the limited lows for fitting.

I'm actually still holding out hope that they might remove them completely in favor of "mods" that you equip to the weapon itself, which would eliminate the whole problem.

I don't get your two 'snipers have a choice sections'

Also, I think my suggestion is elegant and appropriate:

What you want is something viable for logibros to favor their armor resiliance, but doesn't make them better slayers necessarily.

Therefore:

Ancillary Armor Booster -

- highslot module (has to sacrifice slots for damage mods)
- Multiplies the effect of armor repair rate by 25% to 45% per module (basically like a regulator)

So trading 2 highslots could effectively free up a lowslot for either a utility module or more eHP. The trade-off for resiliance would make the most sense for logibros who need it as they are scrambling around the front lines and who are already getting a good starting base armor repair rate.

Armor slayers who would want to be doing high alpha damage (amarr scrambler/laser users) wouldn't want to sacrifice the damage mods for regen. Their damage is based on alpha strikes anyway, so they need to get in and out. This means HP resiliance isn't as important as buffer.

My fundamental disagreement with you Cross is it seems like you want both armor and shield to be equal at close range. I think this would throw off balance on a number of levels. See my new Wu Xing post.

Armor suits (high armor slot layout) should have the option of using their lowslots of eHP or speed/stealth and highslots for damage. So they get to pick 2 of those options. Armor slot logi's get a third option to use their slots for added fitting ability.

Shield suits have the option of turning their abundant high slots into a either regen, buffer, or damage fit and basically can pick 2 of those. They also have the option of choosing a glass cannon fit using the limited lows for fitting.

Screw forgegun sniping

If armor will become equal to shields, wouldn't we be able to fit armor-modules in high slots too? But interessting concept...

I didn't want to start a thread for this, but wanted to note so as not to forget, but we discussed on IRC today that it would be reasonable to show the scan profile of the person that killed you so you can think to yourself, "I need to be aware of my detection better' or something.

In general we do need a little better intel about WHY we were hit so hard.

In Eve, you get the damage indicators that something hit a GLANCING blow, or that it was a CRITICAL hit. Some kind of indicator that suggested that hits were a % above normal optimal levels due to damage mods, or significantly below normal efficiency would be good.

I'm wondering if the blood animation corresponds to this? If it does, I don't really notice it. I don't know what else you could do, besides make the arrow of where you are getting hit from more pronounced if its harder damage.

Would it be worth a kind of yellow/red flashing

-15
-20
-20
-25

in the bottom corner near your health for every hit you take. The bigger and bolder and more red something is the more of a critical hit it is.

Some kind of indicator would be very useful, even if it were only on the "kill mail" popup i.e. 'damage mods +20% dmg' or something of that nature.

Haha I like how everyone thinks Armor must be identical to shields to be "balanced." Once shields get equipment that only benefit them should their be a high slot armor mod.

To the OP,

Aren't you ignoring Kin Cats and Cardiac Regulators in the high? Dealing damage and killing your opponent is only one part of winning a match. Shields have the advantage in speed. Speed to get to objectives and speed to flank is as important as just dealing more damage. One can't neuter dmg Mods and leave these unchanged.

How much would you suggest nerfing them?

I don't get your two 'snipers have a choice sections'

Also, I think my suggestion is elegant and appropriate:

What you want is something viable for logibros to favor their armor resiliance, but doesn't make them better slayers necessarily.

Therefore:

Ancillary Armor Booster -

- highslot module (has to sacrifice slots for damage mods)
- Multiplies the effect of armor repair rate by 25% to 45% per module (basically like a regulator)

So trading 2 highslots could effectively free up a lowslot for either a utility module or more eHP. The trade-off for resiliance would make the most sense for logibros who need it as they are scrambling around the front lines and who are already getting a good starting base armor repair rate.

Armor slayers who would want to be doing high alpha damage (amarr scrambler/laser users) wouldn't want to sacrifice the damage mods for regen. Their damage is based on alpha strikes anyway, so they need to get in and out. This means HP resiliance isn't as important as buffer.

My fundamental disagreement with you Cross is it seems like you want both armor and shield to be equal at close range. I think this would throw off balance on a number of levels. See my new Wu Xing post.

Armor suits (high armor slot layout) should have the option of using their lowslots of eHP or speed/stealth and highslots for damage. So they get to pick 2 of those options. Armor slot logi's get a third option to use their slots for added fitting ability.

Shield suits have the option of turning their abundant high slots into a either regen, buffer, or damage fit and basically can pick 2 of those. They also have the option of choosing a glass cannon fit using the limited lows for fitting.

Sigh...
Here we go again.
Shields have kin cats, armor has damage mods.
Shield users dictate range, armor is a better brawler.

These are incompareables, you can't say one is better than the other, it's 100% opinion.

You want to nerf damage mods?
Then nerf kin cats.
Oh and nerf regulators while you're at it.
And CPU/PG upgrades.

The other half of your balance you are talking about has to do with whatever racial bonus you are giving to assaults to make their dps clearly superior to logi dps.

Until that is clear, we are having a semantic practice argument.

BTW, I'm finding the ability to be a lot more versitle in my fitting as a logi if I equip two sidearms.

I damage tank... i forgo conventional tank mods to kill the other guy faster and therefore take less damage.
Thats my play style and it works for me.

Nerfing dmg mods wouldnt be cool.

I could just as easilly say Nerf Extenders and plates....

From the sounds of your post you're not talking about sniping, and if you're running close combat medium frames then this wouldn't remove your options (unless you're dead set on playing a 'slayer logi').
Are you primarily HMG heavy right now?

As I mention prior I intentially leave specific numbers to CCP most of the time, but for examples sake if the mods were nerfed 1-2% then I'd give the Assault suits a 1-2% buff.

Regardless of the specific numbers the intent is for the change to be generally mild and for the two shifts to be equal or approximately equal.


Interesting, so you're running the Amarr racial frame then? Are you double stacking the same sidearm or running two different types?

I've played with double sidearm builds myself a few times (usually outside of the logi suit) but found their overall performance to be underwhelming for me. Skipping a LW in favor of a sidearm for the sake of saved fittings is certainly useful but doubling down on sidearms has always netted a marked decrease in combat effectiveness for me [Informational note: I've never used the flaylock].

~Cross

I play Heavy and cal Assault... and scouts when the mood takes me lol

However I dont see how that makes too much of a differance, my playstyle works if im using shotguns, HMGs, ARs, FGs or LRs.
Or be it on a Heavy, medium, or light frame....

The alternative that could make sense would be to make assaults gain effectiveness to damage mods not necessarily to their dps. That way, actually equipping them is more efficient.

As far as dual sidearms go, i'm just starting out. But I decided to run 2 enhanced dampeners, an endurance mod, all shields in my highs, and 2 scrambler pistols. Then I like to carry a scanner so I can see if anyone is around where I'm going.

I've been spending the first 20% of a game getting deployables out, returning to a supply depot, swapping to a different fit with other deployables, and reinforcing other areas, if the flow allows. Being stealthy really helps my survivability.

HMG heavy is one of the only roles in Dust I haven't played. I asked because due to my lack of hands on experience it's an area I'm most likely to misunderstand/overlook something about.

As stated previously in this thread, Assault wouldn't be effected at all so there's one third of your list addressed.
Scouts running alpha weapons don't need damage mods to 1-2 shot most fits (even of a higher average meta), I suppose this may still be an issue for scouts if you're running scout AR, but if you have the Cal frame anyway why not apply a speed mod to let you play the same 'scout + AR' style post change, what about that would hinder your play style?

Which brings us back to the Heavy, FGs do their job pretty effectively already. A militia FG with a militia damage mod can take out every dropship I've encountered so far (if it's within range ) most HAVs (I've been in fewer than 10 Uprising battles with a HAV that didn't get eaten up by militia forge + militia damage mod, they are out there but they're rare) and a direct FG shot decimates infantry even when it's militia forge vs proto infantry. So the FG will be just fine (there are after all weapon specific skill upgrades that can be applied and higher meta forges which could be used).

LRs well they need some love, they are currently on the 'endangered species list' based on frequency with which they are seen on the field at all, much less actually doing work. If the only way a LR can be effective is through stacked damage mods than that is simply confirmation that the weapon itself needs some attention.

Which leaves the HMG, I as mentioned I don't have direct experience running the HMG but the Heavies I run with and talk to have given me to understand that (perhaps aside from the burst variant) it does work more through volume of fire than damage per round. When combined with "doom mode" this matters because with a more durable tank an HMG at optimal can still chew players up even without a damage mod due to the decreased dispersion of 'doom mode'.
If armor became balanced with shields it would even theoretically allow a heavy focused on dps to free up some high slots for damage mods without losing eHP. I realize this is theory crafting based on market stats and CCP patch notes but as best I can tell it's a net neutral change for a dps focused HMG Heavy.

0.02 ISK
Cross