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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
419
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Posted - 2013.08.04 19:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
I discovered yesterday that quickly tapping the fire button for the standard (not breach, burst, or Tac.) AR causes its fire to be much more accurate than even short bursts of fire. The rate of fire did not seem to take a noticeable hit but the rate at which I could take targets down did.
I suspect the reason for this is that tapping the fire button resets the cone of dispersion effect, and eliminates kick, which in turn makes the AR a much more deadly weapon. Using this technique I was easily able to land multiple headshots on moving targets in quick succession causing them to go down much faster than would have been possible with short bursts.
I would like to suggest that CCP remedy this by making the cone of dispersion/kick recovery being tuned to be slower than its build up. If that wasn't clear enough let me explain.
Just using these numbers for the sake of argument imagine that an AR when constantly firing would take 2 seconds to reach is maximum dispersion and kick. Under my proposed fix the AR would take 3 seconds of not firing to go back to its base state (what you get for your first few shots). This would encourage players to burst then wait a bit to achieve maximum accuracy.
I will continue to investigate this today to see if the increased accuracy and damage was the result of a spike in hit detection (something that seems to happen) or is a consistent issue. |
Cyrius Li-Moody
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
629
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Posted - 2013.08.04 20:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tap fire is common in first person shooters. I can only imagine it's intended.
My .02 isk.
This isn't BF3 but here's Jackfrags on infantry combat: http://youtu.be/eTyTjufoVJg
worth a watch regardless in my opinion. He goes through the different techniques tap, burst, and full auto. |
Rogue Saint
Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse
88
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Posted - 2013.08.04 23:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Working as intended IMO, the recoil is cumulative when holding the trigger, which seems correct. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
142
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Posted - 2013.08.05 06:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:I would like to suggest that CCP remedy this by making the cone of dispersion/kick recovery being tuned to be slower than its build up.
tldr turn the dispersion from a Sawtooth wave into a Triangle wave. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
148
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Posted - 2013.08.06 11:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
I support this product and/or service. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
157
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Posted - 2013.08.07 10:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Technically this is a feature improvement, rather than a bug. |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
441
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Posted - 2013.08.07 10:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Technically you need to shut the heck up! No no, just kidding. It is true. This is both a bug and a requested fix. I saw that it could go into either area of the forums and choose to put it here, to decrease the trolling. |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
554
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Posted - 2013.08.07 14:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rogue Saint wrote:Working as intended IMO, the recoil is cumulative when holding the trigger, which seems correct.
it cannot possibly be intended. When you tap the fire button as the OP described, you still get the same ROF as holding down the trigger. Resulting in full auto-fire with less dispersion, in a manner that is counter-intuitive. What we should need to do is burst with trigger down, let off, burst with trigger down.
I have not confirmed the affects on dispersion yet, but others claim to. I can confirm taping the trigger (and not even rapidly either, nothing that will tire you) results in full auto fire. |
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CCP Logibro
C C P C C P Alliance
315
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Posted - 2013.08.07 20:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'll see if I can bring this up with some of the other devs later when I get a chance. While it sounds like it's "working as mechanically intended", I'll see if I can find out if this is actually working as intended or not. CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics
@CCP_Logibro |
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Justine Oma-Lyndel
Raven Accord Black Core Alliance
7
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Posted - 2013.08.07 21:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Speaking from past FPS this is a common 'tactic' and has been an intended game mechanic in every game that had it.
I would not be surprised if CCP lets this one go and says it's intended. |
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J Lav
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
162
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Posted - 2013.08.07 22:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
I hope this is working as intended. Not only is it realistic, but it's both balanced and common. I'm just impressed that they finally added enough recoil that you notice that tap-firing works. |
mollerz
Minja Scouts
826
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Posted - 2013.08.07 22:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
As someone who has fired real fully automatic weapons, that is far more realistic than anything else.
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xxwhitedevilxx M
Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS.
460
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Posted - 2013.08.07 22:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:I'll see if I can bring this up with some of the other devs later when I get a chance. While it sounds like it's "working as mechanically intended", I'll see if I can find out if this is actually working as intended or not.
I tested it much time ago: using a mouse (fragfx shark) that support rapid fire, setting it to really rapid fire, shooting with an automatic AR. You get no recoil, no dispersion. Unfortunately, I'm not good with kb/m so i just didn't kept using it. Still i believe it is working as intended, but at the same time it's easily exploitable. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
164
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Posted - 2013.08.07 23:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:I tested it much time ago: using a mouse (fragfx shark) that support rapid fire, setting it to really rapid fire, shooting with an automatic AR. You get no recoil, no dispersion. Unfortunately, I'm not good with kb/m so i just didn't kept using it. Still i believe it is working as intended, but at the same time it's easily exploitable.
mouse down; delay 50 milliseconds; mouse up; delay 1 millisecond; repeat.
Lose 2% effective DPS but your assault rifle is now dispersion-free... |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
164
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Posted - 2013.08.07 23:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
Justine Oma-Lyndel wrote:Speaking from past FPS this is a common 'tactic' and has been an intended game mechanic in every game that had it.
Counterstrike has a well-known recoil system with recoil cooldown rather than the "mouseup=reset recoil" strategy that Dust has.
It has a LOT of cvars to allow for recoil tweaking.
Quote: weapon_recoil_cooldown : 0 : Amount of time needed between shots before restarting recoil weapon_recoil_decay1_exp : 3 : Decay factor exponent for weapon recoil weapon_recoil_decay2_exp : 8 : Decay factor exponent for weapon recoil weapon_recoil_decay2_lin : 15 : Decay factor (linear term) for weapon recoil weapon_recoil_scale : 2 : Overall scale factor for recoil. Used to reduce recoil on specific platforms weapon_recoil_suppression_factor : 0 : Initial recoil suppression factor (first suppressed shot will use this factor * standard recoil, lerping to 1 for later shots weapon_recoil_suppression_shots : 1 : Number of shots before weapon uses full recoil weapon_recoil_variance : 0 : Amount of variance per recoil impulse weapon_recoil_vel_decay : 4 : Decay factor for weapon recoil velocity weapon_recoil_view_punch_extra : 0 : Additional (non-aim) punch added to view from recoil
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Kekklian Noobatronic
Goonfeet Top Men.
288
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Posted - 2013.08.08 08:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
The AR has the kick of a 3 month old baby. It makes no sense. There is not a FPS around where fully auto rifles have this little kick and this much accuracy.
And ofc, this whole feathering the trigger stuff has been around forever.
Waeponz aer hrd.. |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
570
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Posted - 2013.08.08 16:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:The AR has the kick of a 3 month old baby. It makes no sense. There is not a FPS around where fully auto rifles have this little kick and this much accuracy.
And ofc, this whole feathering the trigger stuff has been around forever.
Waeponz aer hrd..
Rifles in MW2 had extremely low recoil. Some even had perfect accuracy on full auto (ACR). |
Xi Vi
Ekipa Remontowo Budowlana
1
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Posted - 2013.08.10 11:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:I'll see if I can bring this up with some of the other devs later when I get a chance. While it sounds like it's "working as mechanically intended", I'll see if I can find out if this is actually working as intended or not.
Don't you have better things to do?
Let me list some things for ya:
1) we have proto av gear VS Standard tanks - 2) invisible swarm launchers 3) laser rifle, plasma cannon - needs some LOVE 4) invisible mercs 5) lags, hit detection, disconnections, PSN signouts etc.
more to come...
SO leave AR alone!
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
449
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Posted - 2013.08.10 17:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Wait a minute your really going to complain about a Dev who is willing to look into something. I for one appreciate Logibro's support. |
IceShifter Childhaspawn
DUST University Ivy League
180
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Posted - 2013.08.11 01:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
@Mobius:You cannot make them happy.
@Devs: Keep doing your job. Smile when your game takes off. |
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CaoticFox
Axis of Chaos
21
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Posted - 2013.08.11 02:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
this would explain why all the turbo controller users switched back to Duvolle, when TAR got nerfed... more accurate, higher rate of fire, more DPS, more effective exploit... |
Torr Wrath
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
723
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Posted - 2013.08.16 18:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
On a note of interest this works with the HMG as well. |
THE TRAINSPOTTER
ROMANIA Renegades C0VEN
125
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Posted - 2013.08.16 18:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Oso Peresoso wrote:Rogue Saint wrote:Working as intended IMO, the recoil is cumulative when holding the trigger, which seems correct. it cannot possibly be intended. When you tap the fire button as the OP described, you still get the same ROF as holding down the trigger. Resulting in full auto-fire with less dispersion, in a manner that is counter-intuitive. What we should need to do is burst with trigger down, let off, burst with trigger down. I have not confirmed the affects on dispersion yet, but others claim to. I can confirm taping the trigger (and not even rapidly either, nothing that will tire you) results in full auto fire. what he said
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cooldudesuper1
The Tickle Monsters
4
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Posted - 2013.11.14 18:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
0.o thought everyone knew this...
every 1520 years, a leap year counts as 2 years-do your math bro.
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
1282
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Posted - 2013.11.14 20:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Working as intended. Having the discipline to control one's fire grants the user of any weapon more accuracy. Spray and pray should and does produce more dispersion and kick.
"The true measure of a shinobi is not how he lives, but how he dies."
- The Toad Sage
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JDEZ09
Dark Side Alliance
11
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Posted - 2013.11.15 00:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
This is vintage FPS tactical aiming, so no need to fret about this yo.
Take the new caldari rifle for instance, it's flaw is it's spool up time. But!! it has excellent range, and it may even scare me in my laser rifle fitting. But as far as the Gallente Assault rifle, the range on the weapon is substantially more less than the Caldari rail rifle. So if you were to encounter a caldari rail rifle at a decent range, then you would definitely need to fire in more controlled bursts to compensate for the bullet spread at certain ranges. ARs are going to need this mechanic, it would be foolish to subtract this simple FPS mechanic just because it works well. Plus, whether you realize it or not, your DPS maximum does decrease when you do this, which further balances the effect that the Rail rifles flaw has during the firefight. (spool up)
Do this same tactic with the Scrabler AR, and you will see that it's dispersion is perfectly okay, though there isn't a sharpshooter skill for the weapon. We have to compensate and adapt to survive. This isn't about spray n pray. |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION
929
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Posted - 2013.11.15 03:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
JDEZ09 wrote:This is vintage FPS tactical aiming, so no need to fret about this yo.
Take the new caldari rifle for instance, it's flaw is it's spool up time. But!! it has excellent range, and it may even scare me in my laser rifle fitting. But as far as the Gallente Assault rifle, the range on the weapon is substantially more less than the Caldari rail rifle. So if you were to encounter a caldari rail rifle at a decent range, then you would definitely need to fire in more controlled bursts to compensate for the bullet spread at certain ranges. ARs are going to need this mechanic, it would be foolish to subtract this simple FPS mechanic just because it works well. Plus, whether you realize it or not, your DPS maximum does decrease when you do this, which further balances the effect that the Rail rifles flaw has during the firefight. (spool up)
Do this same tactic with the Scrabler AR, and you will see that it's dispersion is perfectly okay, though there isn't a sharpshooter skill for the weapon. We have to compensate and adapt to survive. This isn't about spray n pray.
Ha! That OP was so old that it is now irrelevant. The issue with it at the time was that it completely circumvented the TTK mechanic that was in place shaving multiple seconds off of the time required to kill an opponent. It did, at the time, make a huge difference in your killing potential thus my issue with it.
In the current state of the game however this is totally not an issue. Feathering the fire button would do little to increase your accuracy and would definitely reduce your dps.
Just a thought. Perhaps you should think about the age of postings before replying to them. This one has been dead for over two months.
In the world of DUST/
The words are all in haiku/
Tweets are just too long
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
313
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Posted - 2013.11.15 16:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:I'll see if I can bring this up with some of the other devs later when I get a chance. While it sounds like it's "working as mechanically intended", I'll see if I can find out if this is actually working as intended or not.
The problem isn't players ability to feather the fire button to reduce recoil.. It's that done fast enough or with a macro it negates all of CCP's recoil mechanics on all semi and full automatic guns...
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=121423&find=unread <---- proof |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION
936
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Posted - 2013.11.16 06:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:I'll see if I can bring this up with some of the other devs later when I get a chance. While it sounds like it's "working as mechanically intended", I'll see if I can find out if this is actually working as intended or not. The problem isn't players ability to feather the fire button to reduce recoil.. It's that done fast enough or with a macro it negates all of CCP's recoil mechanics on all semi and full automatic guns... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=121423&find=unread <---- proof
Just saw that video earlier today, which explains why this thread is being revived. That is definitely an issue that CCP needs to look into. No one should be able to avoid a core mechanic of FPS games (recoil in this case) by using a macro mouse or a modded controller.
In the world of DUST/
The words are all in haiku/
Tweets are just too long
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Musta Tornius
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
652
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Posted - 2013.11.16 10:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
My my, just look at all the players defending cheating, nice one guys.
Dust514 Weapon Range & Information
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