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Pandora Mars
Afterlife Overseers
143
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Posted - 2013.07.25 18:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello, forumers. I'm sorry, this is quite a long thread but there are several subjects discussed here, so if you want a TL;DR option it is going to be very approximative. If you still want it, just scroll down to the bottom.
Assault rifles are very discussed lately. However, most of the times, in an approximative way.
Feedback like "AR are OP" or "AR are fine" tend to lack of constructive potential and sometimes people is confused or not sure about what you're saying and what you really think about Assault Rifles.
The main reason is that the "AR weaponry" includes 4 specific weapons and that those 4 weapons are very different in terms of functionality, but there's much more.
The most important factor is that there's a huge difference of popularity and possible "unbalancing criteria".
Of course many of you might say: "We all know what type of AR is discussed" This is generally true, but not always: -Newer players might be confused by "AR this, AR that". -Even though it's rare, some players think the full-automatic higher RoF model (The standard assault rifle, GEK-38, duvolle assault rifle and their AUR variants) is not the only "problematic" weapon.
I wouldn't want this thread to turn into a "AR is/isn't OP" thread, but I know for sure some people will express their point of view about AR. So please, let's keep the conversation cool. Thank you.
Here's some data to make the whole thing clearer to newer players and some numbers I'd like to discuss with you all.
Assault Rifles currently include 4 different weapons:
Standard - High Rate of Fire, fully automatic assault rifles. Breach - Low Rate of Fire, high damage fully automatic assault rifles. Burst - 3x burst firing scoped assault rifles. Tactical - Semi-automatic scoped assault rifles.
Popuarity Survey:
During the last 2 days, I've been taking note of AR kills in public matches. 1st day: Playing normally and taking down all my deaths 2nd day: MCC AFKing and taking down every single kill... I'm sorry :( Non-AR kills have been entirely removed from these stats.
DAY 1:
Standard: 23 Tactical: 3 Breach: 0 Burst: 0
DAY 2:
Standard: 311 Tactical: 29 Breach: 3 Burst: 1
Fun fact:
-During DAY 2 I spotted a Laser Rifle kill. Laser Rifles and Burst Assault Rifles tied 1-1!
Personal considerations:
-311:1 is an impressive ratio. I must say when I finally saw a GK-13 popping at the killboard I couldn't believe it. I had faith in another kill but I assume the guy switched to a different fitting after that one.
-I think that Burst and Breach rifles are... terrible. But the main reason I see them so under-used is because the Breach Rifle is simply overshadowed by the Standard one and the Burst rifle... well, either one of them is better, because it's not as effective as the Tac at mid-long range combat and not as effective as the Standard at mid range. CQC is out of question.
-I think that the Standard Assault Rifle over-performs at mid-long range, compared to the Tac and the Burst. I DON'T know how that gap should be increased, but it *must* be increased. Burst and Tac AR need an advantage over the Standard model at that range and that advantage is currently limited to 10 meters. After that, even Tac's (better than Burst's) efficiency will instantly drop and, with its efficiency, the advantage is gone.
TL;DR:
-"AR" is a generic term, there are 4 different "basic" weapons in the AR tree, so by saying "AR are OP" or "AR are fine" you confuse people.
-Breach and Burst AR are poor weapons. It's even worst because they are still AR and they are completely overshadowed by more efficient models, especially the standard assault rifle.
-Standard Assault Rifle over-performs at mid-long range, compared to the Tac and the Burst. I DON'T know how that gap should be increased, but it *must* be increased. Burst and Tac AR need an advantage over the Standard model at that range and that advantage is currently limited to 10 meters. After that, even Tac's (better than Burst's) efficiency will instantly drop and, with its efficiency, the advantage is gone.
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Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
781
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Posted - 2013.07.25 18:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
And that is why is so many GEK-38 kills... and is the most hated weapon in Dust 514. BECAUSE all the other AR variations have already been nerfed ages ago.. the STD AR is the only one that can actually be use.. just about. |
Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
854
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 18:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Wow i'm surprised. Never thought my Tac would be so rare already.
Oh well stealth range buff for me.
And yes the burst "feels" great but it somehow lacks consistent dmg. It's an assist magnet like the laser, albeit not necessarily for thte same reasons. |
Forlorn Destrier
Bullet Cluster
1236
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 18:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
+1, thanks for the stats |
Severance Pay
Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic
846
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 18:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
I agree, I come from a long line of pirate descendants and I have spent a decade cultivating the pirate terms. This use of AR to identify the assault rifle is confusing for me. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL EoN.
49
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Posted - 2013.07.25 18:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Darn, I thought this thread would be about how they don't have flash hiders/bayonet lugs/shoulder things that go up. |
Mintqueer
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
53
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Posted - 2013.07.25 19:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
You only mentioned the Gallente line of ARs, we also have the Amarr (Laser and Scrambler Rifles), we are missing the caldari and minmatar line.
Anyways, AR are standard at everything but not the best in a variety of scenarios.
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Forlorn Destrier
Bullet Cluster
1236
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Posted - 2013.07.25 19:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mintqueer wrote:You only mentioned the Gallente line of ARs, we also have the Amarr (Laser and Scrambler Rifles), we are missing the caldari and minmatar line.
Anyways, AR are standard at everything but not the best in a variety of scenarios.
The Amarr/Caldari/Minmater weapons are not Assault Rilfes.
Amarr: Scrambler Rifles Caldari: Rail Rifles (not yet released) Minmater: Combat Rifles (not yet released)
There are variations of each of these as well, but OP was not documenting these other types of rifles or their variations. |
Killar-12
Intrepidus XI EoN.
331
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 19:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
It's only the standard AR that's hated
There are four major reasons why the AR is disliked
- Ease of use It's easy to use point, fire, kill, repeat and bunny hop while reloading.
- Higher Rate of Fire and Damage, Longer Range when compared to Small blaster turrets in hat other game does a Assault rifle out do a vehicle mounted turret? My turret is outdone by a assault rifle that costs much less than my turret.
Basic Blaster turrets cost more than standard AR's and do considerably less damage
- Lore I know that someone will say Gameplay>Lore but the Gallente AR has the ROF of a Minmatar weapon, the Range almost equal to a Pulse laser, and still the damage of an Gallente weapon.
- Naming It is called an Assault Rifle so players think it is a AR from other games and expect an AR if it was called a Blaster Rifle then players wouldn't think of other AR's which would help make those quoting other games not able to as easily also racial variants need to be put on starter fits lets start with the Scrambler Rifle.
Fixes
Nerfs (They Will be Countered by buffs)
AR Range and ROF Slightly reduce range to 30 m optimal from 38 55 m effective from 65 150 m absolute from 250 ROF only needs a slight tweak down to 700 RPM from 750 RPM
Assault Scrambler Rifle ROF To Compensate for longer range lower the ROF on the AScR to 600 RPM from 700RPM
Buffs
AR damage Increase damage by 1 HP per bullet, if you can aim it adds up
AScR Range increase AScR range to 50 m Optimal from 42m 80 m Effective from 73m and keep the Absolute the same at 250m
Breach AR keep damage the same increase Rof to 600
Burst and Tac's are fine where they are at maybe a minor boost to the Burst's range.
Small Blaster turrets Range increase their Damage per shot to 40 HP and the ranges by 50m optimal 80m effective 150m absolute |
H arpoon
WarRavens League of Infamy
129
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 19:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
I feel so bad for the burst AR... I think I'm gonna try and run a fit with it lol |
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Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
856
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 19:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:Mintqueer wrote:You only mentioned the Gallente line of ARs, we also have the Amarr (Laser and Scrambler Rifles), we are missing the caldari and minmatar line.
Anyways, AR are standard at everything but not the best in a variety of scenarios.
The Amarr/Caldari/Minmater weapons are not Assault Rilfes; the term "Assault Rifle" only applies to Gallente weapons. Amarr: Scrambler Rifles Caldari: Rail Rifles (not yet released) Minmater: Combat Rifles (not yet released) There are variations of each of these as well, but OP was not documenting these other types of rifles or their variations. Actually, the current AR should be called "particle rifle" or similar as it is an AR just as the other three.
AR should be it's own category which is then subdivided into the racial variants. As others have pointed out the terminology "Assault Rifle" implies that it's the standard CoD style weapon in the game. This has become untrue at least since the release of the Scrambler.
This is equally true with the Submachine Gun as there will be other weapons that would fit into this name just as well and of course with the Sniper Rifle.
All of which need to be renamed and categorized so that people who look for their favorite weapon types are not tricked into thinking that there's only one weapon for each of those categories.
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Forlorn Destrier
Bullet Cluster
1239
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 20:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Forlorn Destrier wrote:Mintqueer wrote:You only mentioned the Gallente line of ARs, we also have the Amarr (Laser and Scrambler Rifles), we are missing the caldari and minmatar line.
Anyways, AR are standard at everything but not the best in a variety of scenarios.
The Amarr/Caldari/Minmater weapons are not Assault Rilfes; the term "Assault Rifle" only applies to Gallente weapons. Amarr: Scrambler Rifles Caldari: Rail Rifles (not yet released) Minmater: Combat Rifles (not yet released) There are variations of each of these as well, but OP was not documenting these other types of rifles or their variations. Actually, the current AR should be called "particle rifle" or similar as it is an AR just as the other three. AR should be it's own category which is then subdivided into the racial variants. As others have pointed out the terminology "Assault Rifle" implies that it's the standard CoD style weapon in the game. This has become untrue at least since the release of the Scrambler. This is equally true with the Submachine Gun as there will be other weapons that would fit into this name just as well and of course with the Sniper Rifle. All of which need to be renamed and categorized so that people who look for their favorite weapon types are not tricked into thinking that there's only one weapon for each of those categories.
But this isn't CoD. Also, the AR skill doesn't unlock the SR, for example. Just because other developers used a name in a certain way doesn't mean that CCP is required to do that as well. I disagree with your opinion that it should be renaled because other games do it a certain way.
That's not to say it shouldn't be renamed, I just don't agree with the logic that "x does this so this game should too". |
Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
857
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 20:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:But this isn't CoD. Also, the AR skill doesn't unlock the SR, for example. Just because other developers used a name in a certain way doesn't mean that CCP is required to do that as well. I disagree with your opinion that it should be renaled because other games do it a certain way.
That's not to say it shouldn't be renamed, I just don't agree with the logic that "x does this so this game should too". I never said that we need a generic AR skill (i don't think we do with the current tree). I'm also not saying that dust should behave like CoD for the sake of it(never played it btw).
Quote contrary i'm saying that the current name for the gallente AR, caldari sniper and minny smg are misleading players into thinking that they are some kind of standard weapons for certain play styles while this is no longer true with the AR and soon won't be for the other two guns.
What's the point of naming one Assault rifle "Assault Rifle" and another Assault Rifle "Scrambler Rifle"?
It would be like calling one weapon "one handed sword" and another "falchion" while both are effectively one handed swords, or in eve terms: calling the gallente large turret "large turret" and the caldari one "425mm railgun".
The categories i propose ( purely to avoid further bloating the already long list of weapons) would mostly be visible in market and asset menus and have no bearing on gameplay whatsoever. It would just allow everyone to get an immediate idea of how certain weapons behave and what other options there are.
It's just misleading. CoD has no play in this. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
783
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 20:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Forlorn Destrier wrote:Mintqueer wrote:You only mentioned the Gallente line of ARs, we also have the Amarr (Laser and Scrambler Rifles), we are missing the caldari and minmatar line.
Anyways, AR are standard at everything but not the best in a variety of scenarios.
The Amarr/Caldari/Minmater weapons are not Assault Rilfes; the term "Assault Rifle" only applies to Gallente weapons. Amarr: Scrambler Rifles Caldari: Rail Rifles (not yet released) Minmater: Combat Rifles (not yet released) There are variations of each of these as well, but OP was not documenting these other types of rifles or their variations. Actually, the current AR should be called "particle rifle" or similar as it is an AR just as the other three. AR should be it's own category which is then subdivided into the racial variants. As others have pointed out the terminology "Assault Rifle" implies that it's the standard CoD style weapon in the game. This has become untrue at least since the release of the Scrambler. This is equally true with the Submachine Gun as there will be other weapons that would fit into this name just as well and of course with the Sniper Rifle. All of which need to be renamed and categorized so that people who look for their favorite weapon types are not tricked into thinking that there's only one weapon for each of those categories. But this isn't CoD. Also, the AR skill doesn't unlock the SR, for example. Just because other developers used a name in a certain way doesn't mean that CCP is required to do that as well. I disagree with your opinion that it should be renaled because other games do it a certain way. That's not to say it shouldn't be renamed, I just don't agree with the logic that "x does this so this game should too".
Every time I read " But this isn't CoD " i stop reading immediately... you guys are getting ******* boring with the FPS hate.. |
Forlorn Destrier
Bullet Cluster
1239
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 20:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Forlorn Destrier wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Forlorn Destrier wrote:Mintqueer wrote:You only mentioned the Gallente line of ARs, we also have the Amarr (Laser and Scrambler Rifles), we are missing the caldari and minmatar line.
Anyways, AR are standard at everything but not the best in a variety of scenarios.
The Amarr/Caldari/Minmater weapons are not Assault Rilfes; the term "Assault Rifle" only applies to Gallente weapons. Amarr: Scrambler Rifles Caldari: Rail Rifles (not yet released) Minmater: Combat Rifles (not yet released) There are variations of each of these as well, but OP was not documenting these other types of rifles or their variations. Actually, the current AR should be called "particle rifle" or similar as it is an AR just as the other three. AR should be it's own category which is then subdivided into the racial variants. As others have pointed out the terminology "Assault Rifle" implies that it's the standard CoD style weapon in the game. This has become untrue at least since the release of the Scrambler. This is equally true with the Submachine Gun as there will be other weapons that would fit into this name just as well and of course with the Sniper Rifle. All of which need to be renamed and categorized so that people who look for their favorite weapon types are not tricked into thinking that there's only one weapon for each of those categories. But this isn't CoD. Also, the AR skill doesn't unlock the SR, for example. Just because other developers used a name in a certain way doesn't mean that CCP is required to do that as well. I disagree with your opinion that it should be renaled because other games do it a certain way. That's not to say it shouldn't be renamed, I just don't agree with the logic that "x does this so this game should too". Every time I read " But this isn't CoD " i stop reading immediately... you guys are getting ******* boring with the FPS hate..
Two points:
1. It's not hate - it's the fact that this is a different game. I've never played CoD, and have no opinion of it whatsoever, and I'm sure that the way they do things is fine; that said, why does the naming have to be the exact same as every other game you played? That's my point - why can't CCP name the items the way they want to name them?
2. When someone invokes a comparison to naming, then expect a reply using that as a reference; I didn't bring up CoD, the poster did.
My point: I want my games to be unique. I don't want to play a puzzle game that uses "portals" to jump around if it's not actually portal - I want it to be unique and name make it at least seem like a different game (regardless of mechanics). |
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
796
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 20:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
Considering that there is also a weapon class called Assault Rifle as pointed out, inlcuding Scrambler Rifle, Rail Rifle, and Combat Rifle, it would seem as though the Gallente Assault Rifle needs a name change. Perhaps Plasma Rifle. In fact if you change the name to "Plasma Rifle" I bet you start seeing a larger variety of weapons being used; currently I am speculating that most people specialization into Assault Rifles simply because of its name. |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
1456
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 20:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tac needs its old ROF back, with the smaller clip and increased recoil on hipfire spraying isnt as viable and was never really effective with the old one, most people ADS with it
Breach definitely needs more range
And really the burst needs a buff across the board
However if all the racial variants perform well such as the scrambler being better than the TAC they should all stay where they are |
Killar-12
Intrepidus XI EoN.
333
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 20:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Tac needs its old ROF back, with the smaller clip and increased recoil on hipfire spraying isnt as viable and was never really effective with the old one, most people ADS with it
Breach definitely needs more range
And really the burst needs a buff across the board
However if all the racial variants perform well such as the scrambler being better than the TAC they should all stay where they are the Breach is a CQC weapon read my post above it's long but it's detailed. |
Forlorn Destrier
Bullet Cluster
1240
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 21:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Considering that there is also a weapon class called Assault Rifle as pointed out, inlcuding Scrambler Rifle, Rail Rifle, and Combat Rifle, it would seem as though the Gallente Assault Rifle needs a name change. Perhaps Plasma Rifle. In fact if you change the name to "Plasma Rifle" I bet you start seeing a larger variety of weapons being used; currently I am speculating that most people specialization into Assault Rifles simply because of its name.
For those that weren't around in the beta, the weapon was called only Assault Rifle. With the release of Uprising 1.0, they changed the name to Gallente Assault Rifle (this is the "long" name). They are the same. Check the release notes and threads on the forums at that time for confirmation of this. |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
1456
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 21:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Tac needs its old ROF back, with the smaller clip and increased recoil on hipfire spraying isnt as viable and was never really effective with the old one, most people ADS with it
Breach definitely needs more range
And really the burst needs a buff across the board
However if all the racial variants perform well such as the scrambler being better than the TAC they should all stay where they are the Breach is a CQC weapon read my post above it's long but it's detailed.
The breach is also supposed to be the placeholder for the rail rifle, a longer ranged weapon Thats why I said if the racial variant fixes that problem then leave the breach as it is now, a cheap knock off |
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Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
860
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 21:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Considering that there is also a weapon class called Assault Rifle as pointed out, inlcuding Scrambler Rifle, Rail Rifle, and Combat Rifle, it would seem as though the Gallente Assault Rifle needs a name change. Perhaps Plasma Rifle. In fact if you change the name to "Plasma Rifle" I bet you start seeing a larger variety of weapons being used; currently I am speculating that most people specialization into Assault Rifles simply because of its name. For those that weren't around in the beta, the weapon was called only Assault Rifle. With the release of Uprising 1.0, they changed the name to Gallente Assault Rifle (this is the "long" name). They are the same. Check the release notes and threads on the forums at that time for confirmation of this.
I think the discussion revolves around the question wether the SCR, AR and the other two variants can or should be considered parts of the same general weapon class (again, just formally).
Here's why i think they should:
All four are (or are expected to be) general use - directed fire - direct engagement weapons that are used in a tactically similar manner by largely the same general type of player.
This is my basis on saying that communicating them as such would help diversify the battlefield as players are made aware of the fact that their preferred play style is represented by more than one option.
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Cpt Merdock
Ninth Legion Freelance
53
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 21:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thanks for the Info and the work put in to get this accurate information! +1 |
Forlorn Destrier
Bullet Cluster
1240
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 21:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Forlorn Destrier wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Considering that there is also a weapon class called Assault Rifle as pointed out, inlcuding Scrambler Rifle, Rail Rifle, and Combat Rifle, it would seem as though the Gallente Assault Rifle needs a name change. Perhaps Plasma Rifle. In fact if you change the name to "Plasma Rifle" I bet you start seeing a larger variety of weapons being used; currently I am speculating that most people specialization into Assault Rifles simply because of its name. For those that weren't around in the beta, the weapon was called only Assault Rifle. With the release of Uprising 1.0, they changed the name to Gallente Assault Rifle (this is the "long" name). They are the same. Check the release notes and threads on the forums at that time for confirmation of this. I think the discussion revolves around the question wether the SCR, AR and the other two variants can or should be considered parts of the same general weapon class (again, just formally). Here's why i think they should: All four are (or are expected to be) general use - directed fire - direct engagement weapons that are used in a tactically similar manner by largely the same general type of player. This is my basis on saying that communicating them as such would help diversify the battlefield as players are made aware of the fact that their preferred play style is represented by more than one option.
Oh I see what people are thinking - I just don't think there has to be a "grouping" for these. They are all "Light Weapons"; that is enough of a grouping for me. And if you do want to group them, perhaps there is something else can call the group that doesn't mandate a name change for the AR. |
Killar-12
Intrepidus XI EoN.
333
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Forlorn Destrier wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Considering that there is also a weapon class called Assault Rifle as pointed out, inlcuding Scrambler Rifle, Rail Rifle, and Combat Rifle, it would seem as though the Gallente Assault Rifle needs a name change. Perhaps Plasma Rifle. In fact if you change the name to "Plasma Rifle" I bet you start seeing a larger variety of weapons being used; currently I am speculating that most people specialization into Assault Rifles simply because of its name. For those that weren't around in the beta, the weapon was called only Assault Rifle. With the release of Uprising 1.0, they changed the name to Gallente Assault Rifle (this is the "long" name). They are the same. Check the release notes and threads on the forums at that time for confirmation of this. I think the discussion revolves around the question wether the SCR, AR and the other two variants can or should be considered parts of the same general weapon class (again, just formally). Here's why i think they should: All four are (or are expected to be) general use - directed fire - direct engagement weapons that are used in a tactically similar manner by largely the same general type of player. This is my basis on saying that communicating them as such would help diversify the battlefield as players are made aware of the fact that their preferred play style is represented by more than one option. Oh I see what people are thinking - I just don't think there has to be a "grouping" for these. They are all "Light Weapons"; that is enough of a grouping for me. And if you do want to group them, perhaps there is something else can call the group that doesn't mandate a name change for the AR. I think that a name issue wouldn't hurt anything but there are other reasons for the overproliferation of the AR it comes with all starter fits it is the only weapon of it's type that has a militia variant it takes the least amount of SP to get into and there is no skill involved in using it. |
Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
862
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:Oh I see what people are thinking - I just don't think there has to be a "grouping" for these. They are all "Light Weapons"; that is enough of a grouping for me. And if you do want to group them, perhaps there is something else can call the group that doesn't mandate a name change for the AR. There doesn't really need to be further grouping of those weapons, i agree. There are a few benefits to it though:
- It structures the item lists, keeping them short and clear
- It allows players to search according to more general style of play rather than names that, by themselves, are largely meaningless to new players.
- A consequence of the last point is that players are presented a better picture of their available options, diversifying our battlefields.
I don't really care what the group is called as long as it gives a good idea of what the weapons are all about. The term "Assault Rifles" does just that. Why not use it? I personally don't care if and why it happens to be used in every other shooter on this planet. Maybe it's just a good term.
Information design is all about getting the point across in an efficient manner. Uniqueness is dandy and all but not a good reason to use a term that might end up being confusing rather than helping the user. |
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