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Taking a pass at AR reblancing

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Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 357	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:23:00 - [1] - Quote Hey everyone, The graph detailing the increase in kills for the Flaylock Pistol in this dev blog got me interested in looking at balance in my weapon of choice, the Assault Rifle. While I don't think that the Assault Rifle in its entirety is flawed, I think that a graph detailing which type of assault rifle was used most often would be highly skewed in favor of the Basic Assault rifle. Just as CCP (and the community) wants to avoid one weapon to dominate the battlefield, so to should we avoid one weapon variety dominating an entire branch of weapons. I'll use numbers in this post, but they are more illustrative of a point then they are concrete values. However, all the numbers I looked at came from this site. (I know its old, but it's the only comprehensive list I could find.) Values for weapons are: Militia/Standard/Advanced/Proto Damage/DPS (From Least to Greatest): - Standard: 25 / 28 / 31 / 34 --> +3 Damage per level. Moderate nerf across tiers. No change at Proto - Burst: 28 / 30 / 33 / 40 --> +2, 3, 6 (respectively) per level. Moderate buff across tiers - Breach: 39 / 43 / 49 / 56 --> +4, 6, 9 (respectively) per level. Minor nerf across tiers, no change at Proto - Tactical: 48 / 58 / 68 / 78 --> +10 (respectively) per level. Major nerf across lower tiers, no change at Proto. I think this damage progression illustrates the changes I want to see in the feel and perception of the weapon class. First, you'll notice that all weapons have a big jump between their Militia and Proto grades. I kept proto values the same (save the standard AR), and simply stretched the values going down. I think this I think this gives the feel of really unlocking something new and stronger. Currently, the Exile is popular because in most cases the TTK between it and the Duvolle is not very noticeable. The current damage on a Duvolle is 34.1 giving the I think this is okay. Secondly, In the name of rewarding tactical play and earning more skillful kills, the standard AR is the weakest weapon, both in damage an progression. I think players should be rewarded more - as far as damage as concerned - by picking weapons that require them to place their shots, and this break down give players greater rewards for working with more difficult weapons. The most standard option of the most standard weapon should not be the most exciting. RPM (From Least to Greatest): - Tactical: 450 / 470 / 490 / 510 or 510 across tiers - Burst: 725 / 740 / 750 / 760 or 760 across tiers - Standard: 760 / 770 / 780 / 800 or 800 across tiers - Breach: 890 / 910 / 920 / 930 or 930 across tiers Remember: none of these numbers really matter. I haven't done any DPS calculations to see how the numbers check out against other weapons. It's just to illustrate the idea that TACs should be shooting the slowest, and that Breach weapons should be hosing opponents down in CQC. I was conflicted when I thought about these numbers. In essence, I gave Burst AR the values of a Standard AR, gave the Breach the values of the Burst AR, slightly increased the RPM of the TAR, and dramatically increased the damage of the Breach. My thinking was that the TAR can stand to shoot a bit faster (From what I hear from the few people who use the weapon in the community) while still being balance. My suggestions give the Burst more damage than the AR, so its fire rate should be noticeably different. The Standard AR has enough RPM so that it should be giving players a lot of kick when they try to open it up. The Breach AR is now a high powered SMG, a role which I think it should fill. Below the dotted line are some other changes i thought of. These changes are more or less common place, so I wanted to give people the option not to read a wall of text. These are just some thoughts to add some diversity to this class of weapons too. Tell me what you think. Dispersion / Long Range Accuracy(From Least to Greatest): - Breach - Standard - Burst - Tactical Hip fire / Short Range Accuracy (From Least to Greatest): - Tactical - Burst - Standard - Breach For those who dislike the idea of a weapon having a cone of dispersion, hip fire accuracy could just be determining how strong the autoaim system corrects a player's input at certain values. If everything worked out, it would mean that a breach would "snap" to a target directly in front of a player, while the TAC would have little to no auto aim support. i think that would reward people who can still use the TAC up close while providing the Breach with more benefits. Recoil Per Shot (From Least to Greatest): - Standard - Breach - Burst - Tactical Recoil over time (From Least to Greatest) - Tactical* - Burst* - Breach - Standard Scope Fidelity (From Least to Greatest) - Breach - Standard - Burst - Tactical
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 357	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:28:00 - [2] - Quote Something I forgot to add: SP Re-balancing: I think that each branch of the AR deserves its own skill branch, with each variation being a 1x or 2x Skill. Players creating an Assault Character can have one level automatically unlocked across all weapon varieties, but should pump some SP into a weapon of their choice to truly own it. Also ~~~~~~Reserved for future use
xSir Campsalotx D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 37	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:30:00 - [3] - Quote Interesting ideas my guess is the majority of the populous will outright throw out this idea due to its popularity and then proceed to insult you. Do like the breach idea specifically but does not fall in line with other breach weapons.
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 357	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:31:00 - [4] - Quote xSir Campsalotx wrote: Interesting ideas my guess is the majority of the populous will outright throw out this idea due to its popularity and then proceed to insult you. Do like the breach idea specifically but does not fall in line with other breach weapons. That's fair. I haven't used any other weapon but the AR since I started playing DUST, so i don't have any knowledge to fall back on. Any suggestions?
xSir Campsalotx D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 37	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:31:00 - [5] - Quote It being the AR lol
xSir Campsalotx D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 37	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:37:00 - [6] - Quote Haha I'd love to say anything to balance the assualt rifle but were a minority. The breach variant are high damage low rof and are in need of work, AR side. The ar users make this claim often. I would say simply up the damage on breach halfway between its current stats and the tac damage. Adding recoil to this gun would indeed make it a skilled weapon, but any increase would send the community into a frenzy, even though i think its needed.Welcome to dust btw.
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 357	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:40:00 - [7] - Quote xSir Campsalotx wrote: Haha I'd love to say anything to balance the assualt rifle but were a minority. The breach variant are high damage low rof and are in need of work, AR side. The ar users make this claim often. I would say simply up the damage on breach halfway between its current stats and the tac damage. Adding recoil to this gun would indeed make it a skilled weapon, but any increase would send the community into a frenzy, even though i think its needed.Welcome to dust btw. I think I could agree with a bit more recoil. I would want the skill to come from surviving an up close encounter more than fighting with the recoil on the gun. Using the breach means that you would get getting up close to HMGs, MDs, FL, and grenades. I think that's enough pressure. And I've been here for a long time. Over a year now. I just don't really post unless I have something I think is worth the community's and/or Dev's attention.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 231	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:48:00 - [8] - Quote As a Logi the AR has always been my weapon of choice due to its versatility since I only have one weapon slot. I like many of the ideas that you have proposed in terms of damage output and the progression at each level. The only thing I cannot get on board with is the Breach having a higher rate of fire than a Standard Assault. I do not think that the Breach should be "the SMG of the AR class". Yes it is a high-powered, close-range weapon making ideal for CQB engagements. But this is and should continue to be offset by its slow fire rate and reduced magazine capacity. However, I think that the rate of could and should be increased slightly so as to increase performance and encourage its use more often for specialized situations. I currently use a Breach on a fitting that is designed to be used when counter-hacking objectives in a highly contested area. It has been effective in that role especially when dealing with enemy Heavies. The other point I think will not take off well is breaking up the skill requirements. There are too many other SP sinks out there right now. Dividing up AR skill classes is just "too much" IMO.
xSir Campsalotx D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 37	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:49:00 - [9] - Quote Only joking saw the amount of likes you have. I think the blaster tech should be the best (cqc)as in eve but as it stands the ar usually beats out niche weapons in their intended roles. Regardless I think the breach should have low recoil like smg and have the std ar with a higher recoil. That way breach is better in cqc and the std variant is penalized a bit for its extreme flexibility and overall bad assery lol. I like the tac where its at requires skill but can be quite good.
Panther Alpha DarkWingsss 747	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:52:00 - [10] - Quote You realize that only FEW people uses the AR's ? - Burst rifle .. I haven't seen anyone using this one in Uprising yet. - Tactical .. since the nerf i hardly see anyone using that one. - Breach..i will be surprise if it is more than one person using it. - GEK-38..I honestly believe that only very few people still uses this weapon, is just that the people that are good with it, ARE ACTUALLY VERY GOOD PLAYERS. - Prototype AR.. similar to the GEK-38, but obviously with a higher killing rate. CCP already nerfed the AR to be a skilled weapon ...and is working, leave them alone.

xSir Campsalotx D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 37	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:52:00 - [11] - Quote On a side note this will increase the disparity between new players and vets because of the larger gaps in damage but its bad already
xSir Campsalotx D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 37	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:56:00 - [12] - Quote I'm sorry its hard to believe when at least half the kills at PC level are duvolles or godlocks (another story) hell just count the number of kills for each weapon in a few pubs. Then again at PC level the players are usually skilled.
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 357	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:59:00 - [13] - Quote @RydogV: I included militia values so that there was a noticeable progression between the beginning and end point for each weapon. I think that proto weapons should feel like a big leap from the standard grade. This leads me into Sir Campsalot's post @Sir Campsalot: You're right. These changes have more of an RPG feel to them. Maybe they should be held off until better match making is in place? Would you be okay with these values if people could choose who they got in to a fight with?
xSir Campsalotx D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 37	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:03:00 - [14] - Quote Hahahaha no lol cause the "vets" would choose to go against noobs. In all seriousness though these changes would be good provided matchmaking was done nearly perfect.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 231	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:05:00 - [15] - Quote Thinking on the Skill Points piece. You have to realize that more weapons are coming down the the pipeline. These will offer more variety in the "AR Class" of weapons just like when the Scrambler Rifle was introduced. So I think it is really best just to leave things where they are. One thing I think could help with some increased use of the other types of AR's is in the pricing. The price difference between a Advanced Standard AR and Advanced Breach AR is pretty significant. Not sure why.
Dust Project 514 Dust 514 Evolved 210	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:07:00 - [16] - Quote Panther Alpha wrote: You realize that only FEW people uses the AR's ? - Burst rifle .. I haven't seen anyone using this one in Uprising yet. - Tactical .. since the nerf i hardly see anyone using that one. - Breach..i will be surprise if it is more than one person using it. - GEK-38..I honestly believe that only very few people still uses this weapon, is just that the people that are good with it, ARE ACTUALLY VERY GOOD PLAYERS. - Prototype AR.. similar to the GEK-38, but obviously with a higher killing rate. CCP already nerfed the AR to be a skilled weapon ...and is working, leave them alone. You must be trolling, us. I'll give you the Burst, Breach, and Tac are used less, but not a chance with the GEK and DUV.
Sotapopthegrey gay Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 125	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:09:00 - [17] - Quote AR need a bigger mag until the aiming is sorted out..
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 231	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:10:00 - [18] - Quote On final thing. Once you have your proposal finalized you should repost it in the Feedback section. That seems to be the forum that the Dev team actually gleans when fishing for changes in the game.
Beren Hurin K-A-O-S theory 810	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:11:00 - [19] - Quote I thought that the burst was a place holder? I didn't think it was going to be there permenantly. Why wouldn't the scrambler rifle have other variants then?
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 231	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:16:00 - [20] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: I thought that the burst was a place holder? I didn't think it was going to be there permenantly. Why wouldn't the scrambler rifle have other variants then? I don't really think the Scrambler Rifle needs additional variants. Semi-auto and full-auto variants are fine. Each are offset by the heat build up feature. What would adding a burst variant offer?

Panther Alpha DarkWingsss 747	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:19:00 - [21] - Quote Dust Project 514 wrote: Panther Alpha wrote: You realize that only FEW people uses the AR's ? - Burst rifle .. I haven't seen anyone using this one in Uprising yet. - Tactical .. since the nerf i hardly see anyone using that one. - Breach..i will be surprise if it is more than one person using it. - GEK-38..I honestly believe that only very few people still uses this weapon, is just that the people that are good with it, ARE ACTUALLY VERY GOOD PLAYERS. - Prototype AR.. similar to the GEK-38, but obviously with a higher killing rate. CCP already nerfed the AR to be a skilled weapon ...and is working, leave them alone. You must be trolling, us. I'll give you the Burst, Breach, and Tac are used less, but not a chance with the GEK and DUV. Look at the kill feed, you'll see is the same persons getting that kills... is just that they get LOTS of kills. Seriously.. i already tried this. A guy in a match got 20 AR kills... and the kill feed was just AR after AR kill.. but from THE SAME person.
KingBlade82 The Phoenix Federation 125	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:22:00 - [22] - Quote unless we go back to the SP gains in closed beta don't suggest breaking up weapon trees more im already miserable using only the AR until a year from now when I can get more choices by earning more SP
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 357	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:44:00 - [23] - Quote @Beren Hurin: That could be true, but I have no idea if and or when it'll go through. I'm making this thread as if things were going to stay the same for the next couple of months. Leave the debate of how skilled the people using ARs are in pub matches, are there any other suggestions to get more people to use the other branches of the AR tree?
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 357	Posted - 2013.07.24 12:16:00 - [24] - Quote trying to keep this thread up for more feedback
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 689	Posted - 2013.07.24 12:37:00 - [25] - Quote TBH there used to be a greater difference between standard - proto weaponry/suits/etc....CCP decided that they wanted only small differences between the standard and proto gears. So with that philosophy in mind this will never be done.
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 357	Posted - 2013.07.24 12:40:00 - [26] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: TBH there used to be a greater difference between standard - proto weaponry/suits/etc....CCP decided that they wanted only small differences between the standard and proto gears. So with that philosophy in mind this will never be done. Yeah, I remember. And I remember the long discussion about the pros and cons of shrinking the gaps between weapons. I know that this thread could be off base or flat out ignored. I'm just taking a shot at trying to get some more diversity on the field, because there is none in respect to ARs. If you could change anything, what would it be?
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 689	Posted - 2013.07.24 12:48:00 - [27] - Quote The diversity in ARs are supposed to come from the difference in racial varients.......each race will have their own specific varient and then the remaining varients are attempts to copy other racial types.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 285	Posted - 2013.07.24 12:48:00 - [28] - Quote What's with all these "balence AR" threads lately? I didnt read this thread (and im not going to). There is nothing wrong with the AR. Leave the damn thing alone.
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 197	Posted - 2013.07.24 12:59:00 - [29] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: I think this damage progression illustrates the changes I want to see in the feel and perception of the weapon class. First, you'll notice that all weapons have a big jump between their Militia and Proto grades. I kept proto values the same (save the standard AR), and simply stretched the values going down. I think this I think this gives the feel of really unlocking something new and stronger. Currently, the Exile is popular because in most cases the TTK between it and the Duvolle is not very noticeable. The current damage on a Duvolle is 34.1 giving the I think this is okay. I especially like this bit where you disguise making the gap between newbies and proto-users even greater, seem like you're doing them a favour "feel like they are unlocking something". Lulz.
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 357	Posted - 2013.07.24 13:06:00 - [30] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: I think this damage progression illustrates the changes I want to see in the feel and perception of the weapon class. First, you'll notice that all weapons have a big jump between their Militia and Proto grades. I kept proto values the same (save the standard AR), and simply stretched the values going down. I think this I think this gives the feel of really unlocking something new and stronger. Currently, the Exile is popular because in most cases the TTK between it and the Duvolle is not very noticeable. The current damage on a Duvolle is 34.1 giving the I think this is okay. I especially like this bit where you disguise making the gap between newbies and proto-users even greater, seem like you're doing them a favour "feel like they are unlocking something". Lulz. If it comes off as a ploy or a trick, its not supposed to. Part of the reason that there was so little diversity between ARs in the same branch being used was being there wasn't really a point. Before PC was released, you would only run a Duvolle if you wanted to show off, because an Exile could do more or less the same thing. For people already skilled into the weapon, things don't change much, if it all. For new players, larger spacing could go along with the new match making system and let younger players feel like they are making strides. The point of a video game is to have fun, and in my case, I have more fun if I feel like I'm making noticeable improvements wherever I put my time. If I can look back and say: "I played for x days/weeks and finally unlocked a proto AR" and feel like the change is significant, I'll be happy. I agree that with the numbers/examples I used, it is more of an MMO consideration than an FPS one. And if there anyone else has some more precise suggestions or tweaks to what we have here, just comment so we can add some diversity.



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