I'd add that the Amarr logistics sacrifices PG compared to the Amarr Assault (for some reason).

Every other logi has 78 PG base on their k.0 model. The Ak.0 has 66 PG, which is less than the Amarr Assault. It's the only logistics suit to have less PG than its assault variant.

Alright, I know a lot of complaints have been made about Logis being over effective but those complaints have never really specified that it's the Caldari Logi that is breaking the game. The problem lies in how incredibly versatile they are while having an effective HP that could match a heavy.

As it stands, there's little reason to go into Caldari Assault instead of Logi because all the bonuses of the Logi, ironically, make it a way better Assault. 5 HP/s on armor, 25% more effective shield extenders, 2 extra slots (1 high, 1 low) and 2 extra equipment slots make the suits play more like Super Assaults rather than Logis. The sacrifice they make is barely worth mentioning: losing a sidearm, a little bit base HP, and a tiny but slower. The 25% bonus to shield extenders stacking with the 10% bonus from skills makes a 66 HP extender yield 91 HP per extender. Fitting just ONE completely negates the EHP bonus and they still have 4 more slots to fit more extenders. The loss of a sidearm isn't worth mentioning either. I run CalAssault and I don't fit a sidearm because I can't sacrifice the tank if I want any hope of takin a Logi on.

The fact of the matter is most of the top corps realized this early on and have taken advantage of it by having every one of their top assaults spec into Logis. You have no idea how many PC battles against Internal Error or TeamPlayers or what have you I've played where 90% of the enemy team are Caldari Logis. Their bonus is too strong and they have way too much fitting potential. I'm almost sad I specced into Assault. Looking at the Logis makes me see just how much potential I'm missing out on.

My suggestion: reduce base CPU/PG of all Logis and change the Logi suit bonus to what the Gallente currently get (25% less cost of equipment CPU/PG cost). Remove one low slot from Caldari Logi and change their bonus to 2% per level instead of 5%. This would make fitting a Logi like an Assault much harder while preserving their support role.

Using the fitting tool, I did an experiment to test out how meaningful these differences are. The constant will be the items and modules, the variables are the logistics dropsuits. This is to test the potential of the suit, I'm not saying this is how a smart player would choose to use them.
Experiment: Max skills + Duvolle AR + maximum tanking

ak.0 Logistics
3 Complex shield extenders
3 Complex armor Plates
403 shields & 604 armor (972 EHP)
Speed: movement 3.53 m/s sprint 5.18 m/s
171 CPU & 6 PG remaining

ck.0 Logistics
4 Complex shield extenders + 1 enhanced shield extender
3 Complex armor plates + 1 enhanced armor plate
618 shields & 659 armor (1277 EHP)
Speed: movement 3.74 m/s sprint 5.49 m/s
26 CPU & 0 PG remaining

mk.0 Logistics
4 Complex shield extenders
4 Complex armor plates
368 shields & 693 armor (1094 EHP)
Speed: movement 3.76 m/s sprint 5.53 m/s
100 CPU & 0 PG remaining

gk.0 Logistics
2 Complex shield Extenders + 1 enhanced shield extender
5 Complex armor plates
330 shields & 827 armor (1157 EHP)
Speed: movement 3.5 m/s sprint 5.12 m/s
142 CPU & 4 PG remaining

Ordering from best to worse
Most HP potential: ck.0, gk.0, mk.0, ak.0
Most versatile (most module slots): ck.0, mk.0, gk.0, ak.0
Fastest while tanked: mk.0, ck.0, ak.0, gk.0
Most capable of support: mk.0 & gk.0 tied for first place. gk.0 & ak.0 tied for second place.
_________________________________________________________

Conclusion:

The prototype Amarr logi sacrificed the gain of a module and the gain of an extra equipment slot to get a sidearm. I propose giving the prototype and advanced Amarr logistics 1 more module slot and appropriate PG/CPU to use it, or 1 more equipment slot to use. A sidearm is worth a module slot, OR an equipment slot, but not both.

The Caldari sacrificed the gain of 1 equipment slot for getting 2 more module slots instead of one than its assault counterpart. This combined with the 25% (when maxed out) shield extender efficacy boost per level, makes it a bit overpowered. I suggest removing the extra module slot gain, and replacing it with an equipment slot or something. Seriously, 9 module slots is just too much.

The Minmatar and Gallente logis are balanced. They are tanky support who are slower than their assault counterparts, and carry lots of equipment to do the job. No problem there.

IMPORTANT EDIT: To illustrate how terrible of a balance issue this is, consider the fact that with all skills maxed out, a SENTINEL ak.0 can only fit 1258 EHP. The Caldari logi fits 1277, that is 19 more EHP than a freakin heavy sentinel with the most HP it can fit! and guess what else, the Caldari logi with its superior EHP is FASTER than the ak.0 heavy when fitted this way; Fully tanked sentinel moves at 3.1 m/s, and sprints at 4.34 m/s.
Boundless HMG + 1 complex shield extender + 2 complex armor plates + 1 enhanced armor plate + 1 basic plate
That is 1258 total EHP, 3.31 movement speed, and 4.34 sprint speed.

Reduce the PG/CPU on the ak.0/ck.0 by -10/-55 and the gk.0/mk.0 by -14/-74 but in turn give the logi suits a fitting bonus to equipment modules. I`d say about 50%.

(even though there`s people that say logi has no place in dust atm)

Logistics gk.0 has 3/5 with 4 equip.
Logistics ck.0 has 5/4 with 3 equip.

You can argue that 1 equip =/= 1 low slot... and that's okay... but if you take one their low slots then they should probably get a 4th equip slot so they effectively mirror Logi gk.0s.

Stop claiming the cal logi is god mode. You're only exclaiming the good parts: for example saying that caldari logi has highest eHP POTENTIAL in the game is true but then you wouldn't have any space for equipment, grenades and most light weapons. Also it would rewuire a tremendous amount of SP + no side arm. Some people just need to GTFO and adapt or die...

Leave the cal logi alone ur just bad...

Git gud bro

I have 2 questions

1) You do realize that apart from the Ammar, all the logis have 12 slots ( highs + lows + equipment) . If you we're to take one slot from the cal, wouldn't you have to take it from the other two?

2) On the max tank calculations, did you factor in a gernade or primany, I see a lot of very low CPU/PG which would be the dreaded Invaild Fitting.

Another suggestion is to add fitting costs and amount of sp needed to get into these roles.

I'll follow this and am impressed with the amount of work needed to work all this out.

1) I suggested replacing the extra module slot with an equipment slot in the conclusion section of post 2.
2) In the the max tank calculations, I factored in light weapons, and used a prototype assault rifle for all of them, but not grenade. The max tank experiment was to get a glimpse of how much HP could be tanked, it was not meant to be an accurate representation of how most players would choose to fit their suits.

Yeah but then you just make it have the same slot layout of the min logi just flipped from shield to amour. I agree something should be done but this is madness. Instead of nerfing everything I have some suggestions.

1) Flip the cal logi bonus to the cal assault
2) Force players to fill at least 50% of the equipment
3) Buff the assaults bonuses
4) Allow proto assaults and scouts a second equipment slot.

In no way am I saying that all of these should go into effect but less try to buff something instead of nerfing.

So what would be the fix, if you was in ccp shoes. How could they balance the logis by keeping the total amount of slots in line with each other and then in turn balance the logi with the other specializations?

I just can't think of a way tbh, but I rather do enjoy ur post.

I just hope that true balance is discovered by you, the community, or ccp in due time. Personally I rather see gradual buffs instead of nerfs constantly.

I wouldn't mind that all,and would welcome that change. I do think that good points were discussed.

That settles the cal, min and gal logis.

Now just give the Ammar logi some love.

The Amarr Logi gets totally screwed, they have such limited mod space for a sidearm and slower speed vs other logis. Plus they cannot fully take advantage of their racial bonus. I think some more PG and one more high slot (maybe a equipment instead) and they would be ok.

You know the Cal Logi racial bonus is not absolutely game breaking, it just doesn't fit with the other logis. It fits more for an assault suit or a heavy suit.

Out of curiosity, how relevant are the OP CaLogis since buffer tanking isn't the only method of tanking anymore?

It would fit a heavy, but not an assault since assault bonuses have to do with weapons.
Perhaps it should get a PG/CPU reduction to shield extenders instead.

Still more than Amarr logis, as you can guess

When directly comparing the assault variants to their logistics counterparts, I think you should include the effect of bonuses as well.
The 5 HP/s you get from armour repair is significant on all logis, as it allows you to get away with not fitting a repairer or alternatively it strengthens your tank, as in the case of the gk.0.
Some of the other bonuses are also notable - the shield extender strength bonus on the ck.0 logistics should be noted when comparing it to the assault version.



You also put gk.0 in here twice. I think the second gk.0 should be a ck.0?

Using the fitting tool, I did an experiment to test out how meaningful these differences are. The constant will be the items and modules, the variables are the logistics dropsuits. This is to test the potential of the suit, I'm not saying this is how a smart player would choose to use them.
Experiment: Max skills + Duvolle AR + maximum tanking

ak.0 Logistics
3 Complex shield extenders
3 Complex armor Plates
403 shields & 604 armor (972 EHP)
Speed: movement 3.53 m/s sprint 5.18 m/s
171 CPU & 6 PG remaining

ck.0 Logistics
4 Complex shield extenders + 1 enhanced shield extender
3 Complex armor plates + 1 enhanced armor plate
618 shields & 659 armor (1277 EHP)
Speed: movement 3.74 m/s sprint 5.49 m/s
26 CPU & 0 PG remaining

mk.0 Logistics
4 Complex shield extenders
4 Complex armor plates
368 shields & 693 armor (1094 EHP)
Speed: movement 3.76 m/s sprint 5.53 m/s
100 CPU & 0 PG remaining

gk.0 Logistics
2 Complex shield Extenders + 1 enhanced shield extender
5 Complex armor plates
330 shields & 827 armor (1157 EHP)
Speed: movement 3.5 m/s sprint 5.12 m/s
142 CPU & 4 PG remaining

Ordering from best to worse
Most HP potential: ck.0, gk.0, mk.0, ak.0
Most versatile (most module slots): ck.0, mk.0, gk.0, ak.0
Fastest while tanked: mk.0, ck.0, ak.0, gk.0
Most capable of support (equipment slots): mk.0 & gk.0 tied for first place. ck.0 & ak.0 tied for second place.
_________________________________________________________

Conclusion:

The prototype Amarr logi sacrificed the gain of a module and the gain of an extra equipment slot to get a sidearm. I propose giving the prototype and advanced Amarr logistics 1 more module slot and appropriate PG/CPU to use it, or 1 more equipment slot to use. A sidearm is worth a module slot, OR an equipment slot, but not both.

The Caldari sacrificed the gain of 1 equipment slot for getting 2 more module slots instead of one than its assault counterpart. This combined with the 25% (when maxed out) shield extender efficacy boost per level, makes it a bit overpowered. I suggest removing the extra module slot gain, and replacing it with an equipment slot or something. Seriously, 9 module slots is just too much.
EDIT: Perhaps it should get a PG/CPU reduction to shield extenders as a bonus instead.

The Minmatar and Gallente logis are balanced. They are tanky support who are slower than their assault counterparts, and carry lots of equipment to do the job. No problem there.

IMPORTANT EDIT: To illustrate how terrible of a balance issue this is, consider the fact that with all skills maxed out, a SENTINEL ak.0 can only fit 1258 EHP. The Caldari logi fits 1277, that is 19 more EHP than a freakin heavy sentinel with the most HP it can fit! and guess what else, the Caldari logi with its superior EHP is FASTER than the ak.0 heavy when fitted this way; Fully tanked sentinel moves at 3.1 m/s, and sprints at 4.34 m/s.
Boundless HMG + 1 complex shield extender + 2 complex armor plates + 1 enhanced armor plate + 1 basic plate
That is 1258 total EHP, 3.31 movement speed, and 4.34 sprint speed.

You logi(c) is flawed.

To fit 1277 HP on a Cal logi you need 4 complex plates and 5 complex extenders.

This cost in terms of PG 11*9=99.

The suit has 78*1,3= 101,4 as max PG, so you're left with a suit with an Exile AR and no nanohives, nades or any other equipment. Its a silly comparison and too far away from whats actually a vialbe combat fit....

And as I've mentioned many times before, to fit a Proto Cal suit I need both a PG and a CPU upgrade to fit the rest of the stuff I want, it should be taken into consideration...

All skills are maximum for the sake of the experiment, and all suits are using Duvolle AR, no nades, and nothing else as a constant. Like I explained, it is not meant to be an accurate representation of how someone would fit the suit, it is only to illustrate potential, but yeah, according to the fitting tool you can fit a Duvolle AR and 1277 HP (no need for exile).

Alright, I know a lot of complaints have been made about Logis being over effective but those complaints have never really specified that it's the Caldari Logi that is breaking the game. The problem lies in how incredibly versatile they are while having an effective HP that could match a heavy.

As it stands, there's little reason to go into Caldari Assault instead of Logi because all the bonuses of the Logi, ironically, make it a way better Assault. 5 HP/s on armor, 25% more effective shield extenders, 2 extra slots (1 high, 1 low) and 2 extra equipment slots make the suits play more like Super Assaults rather than Logis. The sacrifice they make is barely worth mentioning: losing a sidearm, a little bit base HP, and a tiny but slower. The 25% bonus to shield extenders stacking with the 10% bonus from skills makes a 66 HP extender yield 91 HP per extender. Fitting just ONE completely negates the EHP bonus and they still have 4 more slots to fit more extenders. The loss of a sidearm isn't worth mentioning either. I run CalAssault and I don't fit a sidearm because I can't sacrifice the tank if I want any hope of takin a Logi on.

The fact of the matter is most of the top corps realized this early on and have taken advantage of it by having every one of their top assaults spec into Logis. You have no idea how many PC battles against Internal Error or TeamPlayers or what have you I've played where 90% of the enemy team are Caldari Logis. Their bonus is too strong and they have way too much fitting potential. I'm almost sad I specced into Assault. Looking at the Logis makes me see just how much potential I'm missing out on.

My suggestion: reduce base CPU/PG of all Logis and change the Logi suit bonus to what the Gallente currently get (25% less cost of equipment CPU/PG cost). Remove one low slot from Caldari Logi and change their bonus to 2% per level instead of 5%. This would make fitting a Logi like an Assault much harder while preserving their support role.

Now that I'm home I can test this out in practice...

So I fit a Duvolle, 5 shield extenders, 2 complex plates, and 2 enhanced plates....

I get 1233 HP as maximum, with all skills.

I use 103 of 102 PG (I can get around that with the AR fitting skill, hey I can even get 1 extra PG if I spend all the 1.8 M skillpoints thats needed)
I use 449 of 512 CPU.

So I have a very slow suit with very little stamina, (3,91 move, 5,75 sprint (I have maxed stamina skills) 120,75 total and a regen of 12,6.

Its 20 shield regen and 5 armor regen is way too slow compared to the massive amount of HP.

I have no nades
I have no sidearm
I can't carry ammo
I can't carry any equipment att all.




This way of comparig suits is utter BS and does't serve ay purpose.

It would be much better to compare actual VIABLE fits against each other rather than running some number theory, especially when the numbers are flawed.

Here is a viable Cal Logi setup:

Duvolle
497 Shields
197 Armor

2 damage mods
3 shield extenders

1 basic Cardiac regulator
2 enhanced erroscale plates
1 CPU uppgrade

1 Core locus nades

1 enhanced scanner (the cheap to fit one)
1 basic Remote explosives
1 Enhanced Nanohive

I

Alternatively, have them only capable of having a sidearm, and the Amarr suit can be special by allowing to fit a light weapon as well.

The so this 50% would that mean that the Gallente logi would get a 75% (50%+25% already in their racial bonus) reduction in equipment modules? Because that would make them BROKEN, able to run all proto uplinks at practically no CPU PG cost.