DUST Search - HAV's STILL need balance!... you don't care anymore, do you ccp??

Harpyja wrote:

CharCharOdell wrote:

ok, i run both maddies and logis with the exact same amount of SP into each.

Shield tanks are underpowered when compared to armor tanks because their reppers have a 10(30):30 cycle, and armor has a 60(25):15 cycle.

Also, armor reppers will rep over 6000 in a cycle, where shield tanks will rep 1500 (these are approximations)

Even with stacked damage mods, a shield tank will not kill an armor tank UNLESS it is a falchion with proto cycled missiles, with 3 dmagae mods, and enforcer prof lvl 5.

As long as the armor tank has reppers and hardeners going, the blaster will do more damage to the shield tank (even with reppers and hardeners on) than the shield tank can rep- therefore, the armor tank will almost every time, providing the skill is the same, ad the armor tank isnt using missiles.

Let's not forget that the armor tank, due to its speed, gets to choose the terms of engagement, provided his is not ambushed by a falchion (fitted as recently described)

For shield tanks to be viable, damage mods will have to give a 20% dmg bonus with no stacking penalty (like in chromosome), passive turret damage will again need to be 5%/lvl, and passive regen needs to be 100hp/s on shield tanks. Only then can shield tanks be viable in PC, and not a waste of money.

I've played PC against some great shield tankers and beat them 90% of the time bc i deploy a maddy to counter them. They have some of the best tactics ive ever seen and still lose, even when im playing like an idiot, just because all i need to do is sttand still, turn on all hardeners and reppers, while i carefully aim my shots at them. it is completely no-skill-required kind of thing. shield tanks need buff. the end.

I once encountered a very skilled Madrugar pilot while I was in my Falchion. I positioned myself at the bottom of a very small incline and he came thundering out from above. Since I could aim upwards and hit him while he couldn't aim down with his blaster to hit me, I pulled off a couple salvos of proto accelerated missiles before he started shooting at me.

I get him down to very low armor, such that I would need only one more full salvo to hit and he was dead, and I was at roughly 1/2 shields. But the inevitable happened and only two of my missiles hit on the next salvo. His god-mode repper brought him back to life from near death and I started moving in the bumpy terrain so that I could get below his maximum angle of depression.

Lucky for me, I managed to get below his maximum turret depression angle which saved me about a second. I shoot 2 or 3 more salvos into him and he finally gets destroyed, and I am left with maybe 1/5 shields. My adrenaline was running throughout the entire battle.

There are a couple of things that I would like to point out that should not be happening. First, I was in an extremely close ranged engagement where only the terrain helped me win, otherwise I would've lost. I had already previously encountered him at range, but it only gave my position away and the difficulties with hitting a target at range prevented me from placing accurate hits. I was already burning in reverse and he figured that if he came charging at me he would've lost, so he pulled back and escaped with some scratches.

Second, it should not take a Falchion and local terrain to barely beat a Madrugar. I would rather it be a Gunnlogi and local terrain to barely beat a Madrugar at close range and a Gunnlogi to easily destroy a Madrugar at range without allowing the Madrugar time to escape. Without any terrain advantageous to the Gunnlogi pilot, a Madrugar should defeat the Gunnlogi at close range.

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Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 353	Posted - 2013.07.10 05:25:00 - [31] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: If you're not hitting harder find the damage mods. okay, for shield tanks to be viable again, they need to be the glass cannons of Chromosome- that means stacking 3 damage mods and maxing out turret skills to lvl 5 brings a 50% damage bonus. they HAVE to be able to do more damage at range than an armor tank can possibly rep/tank against. pretty much, they have to 2-shot just about everything like they used to. not popular, i know, but until that, or we get a 100hp/sec recharge, shield tanks will never be viable tank killers at any range. I wouldn't go back to that. That was terrible. For all of the changes tanks have gone through since then, having two second tank battles with the few players brave enough to actually run tanks wouldn't be ideal. Secondly, while not exactly "constructive posting", I find it very insightful that Caeli Sindeo (Or however you spell it) predicted this rapid switch in the usefulness of Shield tanking. As Char wrote, rail tanks dealt damage so high that it wasn't even in line with the math behind them. I think Slap helped out in a test to determine rail gun damage, and railguns were just doing so much more damage than they were supposed to. Now rails are fixed and - as Caeli proposed - have absolutely no advantage over armor tanking. I just found it interesting how quickly (relatively speaking) this change happened. I'm interested in where it'll go, and I'll be watching from the sidelines. Just some food for thought.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Top Men. 1026	Posted - 2013.07.10 05:30:00 - [32] - Quote actually as a forge gunner I am in favor of buffing passive shield regen rate similarly and proportionally to shield dropsuits. make the repper a supplementary item rather than a go-to item.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 244	Posted - 2013.07.10 07:31:00 - [33] - Quote CCP recently stated that they were looking at balancig shield vs armor tanking for vehicles. Expect a terrible "rebalance" sometime within the next few years. Also, who wants to bet that one of the very few things that CCP will do for shield vehicles is add that new shield hardener that was accidentally published with the Saga II? 70% resists for 8 seconds with a 3 minute cooldown. Go home CCP, you're drunk.
Aizen Intiki Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 134	Posted - 2013.07.10 08:26:00 - [34] - Quote Harpyja wrote: CCP recently stated that they were looking at balancig shield vs armor tanking for vehicles. Expect a terrible "rebalance" sometime within the next few years. Also, who wants to bet that one of the very few things that CCP will do for shield vehicles is add that new shield hardener that was accidentally published with the Saga II? 70% resists for 8 seconds with a 3 minute cooldown. Go home CCP, you're drunk. If the make it last 20 seconds instead of just 8, then make it a 1 minute cooldown instead of 3, it'll be a great get in get out tool for dropships.
Eris Ernaga Super Nerds 289	Posted - 2013.07.10 08:33:00 - [35] - Quote Yotta Guns wrote: Ccp isn't paying attention to tanks at all... Still waiting on the shield buff... Getting REAL tired of the "invincibility" module on the armor tanks. (also known as a armor rep). It's got a faster cooldown, and is waaay stronger than anything shield tanks have. Also, a rep tool for infantry to work on Shields. also, Shield tanks speed? Also, along with the other things, armor has more hp. shield tanks have passive recharge something armor don't get at all.
Eris Ernaga Super Nerds 289	Posted - 2013.07.10 08:35:00 - [36] - Quote Yotta Guns wrote: Aizen Intiki wrote: Oh shut up. Stay off the front lines scrub. You hit harder. Shield tanks most certainly, do NOT hit harder. And even if they did. It's not strong enough to go thru the armor rep a madrauger. makes a neutron blaster null. there fits make fitting railguns easy and railgun hit harder then blasters especially since u can easily catch a slow madrugar at a distance. People don't realize how powerful proto missiles are either they are very good and balanced and infantry and vehicle destruction.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 374	Posted - 2013.07.10 08:42:00 - [37] - Quote Yotta Guns wrote: low genius wrote: tanks are only there for noobs to be impressed by. there is no way currently to balance the tanks, and you don't make enough per match to pay for one. math is fun. Just make the shield reps just as good as armor.it'd be that simple. no bc then armor tanks will become inferior, as they take ~50% more explosive damage than a shield tank. shield tanks need to be able to dish out more damage than an armor tank can possibly rep, but still be weak up close. also, they need to have 100hp/s passive recharge so they can passive tank
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 376	Posted - 2013.07.10 09:12:00 - [38] - Quote ok, i run both maddies and logis with the exact same amount of SP into each. Shield tanks are underpowered when compared to armor tanks because their reppers have a 10(30):30 cycle, and armor has a 60(25):15 cycle. Also, armor reppers will rep over 6000 in a cycle, where shield tanks will rep 1500 (these are approximations) Even with stacked damage mods, a shield tank will not kill an armor tank UNLESS it is a falchion with proto cycled missiles, with 3 dmagae mods, and enforcer prof lvl 5. As long as the armor tank has reppers and hardeners going, the blaster will do more damage to the shield tank (even with reppers and hardeners on) than the shield tank can rep- therefore, the armor tank will almost every time, providing the skill is the same, ad the armor tank isnt using missiles. Let's not forget that the armor tank, due to its speed, gets to choose the terms of engagement, provided his is not ambushed by a falchion (fitted as recently described) For shield tanks to be viable, damage mods will have to give a 20% dmg bonus with no stacking penalty (like in chromosome), passive turret damage will again need to be 5%/lvl, and passive regen needs to be 100hp/s on shield tanks. Only then can shield tanks be viable in PC, and not a waste of money. I've played PC against some great shield tankers and beat them 90% of the time bc i deploy a maddy to counter them. They have some of the best tactics ive ever seen and still lose, even when im playing like an idiot, just because all i need to do is sttand still, turn on all hardeners and reppers, while i carefully aim my shots at them. it is completely no-skill-required kind of thing. shield tanks need buff. the end.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 245	Posted - 2013.07.10 13:42:00 - [39] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: ok, i run both maddies and logis with the exact same amount of SP into each. Shield tanks are underpowered when compared to armor tanks because their reppers have a 10(30):30 cycle, and armor has a 60(25):15 cycle. Also, armor reppers will rep over 6000 in a cycle, where shield tanks will rep 1500 (these are approximations) Even with stacked damage mods, a shield tank will not kill an armor tank UNLESS it is a falchion with proto cycled missiles, with 3 dmagae mods, and enforcer prof lvl 5. As long as the armor tank has reppers and hardeners going, the blaster will do more damage to the shield tank (even with reppers and hardeners on) than the shield tank can rep- therefore, the armor tank will almost every time, providing the skill is the same, ad the armor tank isnt using missiles. Let's not forget that the armor tank, due to its speed, gets to choose the terms of engagement, provided his is not ambushed by a falchion (fitted as recently described) For shield tanks to be viable, damage mods will have to give a 20% dmg bonus with no stacking penalty (like in chromosome), passive turret damage will again need to be 5%/lvl, and passive regen needs to be 100hp/s on shield tanks. Only then can shield tanks be viable in PC, and not a waste of money. I've played PC against some great shield tankers and beat them 90% of the time bc i deploy a maddy to counter them. They have some of the best tactics ive ever seen and still lose, even when im playing like an idiot, just because all i need to do is sttand still, turn on all hardeners and reppers, while i carefully aim my shots at them. it is completely no-skill-required kind of thing. shield tanks need buff. the end. I once encountered a very skilled Madrugar pilot while I was in my Falchion. I positioned myself at the bottom of a very small incline and he came thundering out from above. Since I could aim upwards and hit him while he couldn't aim down with his blaster to hit me, I pulled off a couple salvos of proto accelerated missiles before he started shooting at me. I get him down to very low armor, such that I would need only one more full salvo to hit and he was dead, and I was at roughly 1/2 shields. But the inevitable happened and only two of my missiles hit on the next salvo. His god-mode repper brought him back to life from near death and I started moving in the bumpy terrain so that I could get below his maximum angle of depression. Lucky for me, I managed to get below his maximum turret depression angle which saved me about a second. I shoot 2 or 3 more salvos into him and he finally gets destroyed, and I am left with maybe 1/5 shields. My adrenaline was running throughout the entire battle. There are a couple of things that I would like to point out that should not be happening. First, I was in an extremely close ranged engagement where only the terrain helped me win, otherwise I would've lost. I had already previously encountered him at range, but it only gave my position away and the difficulties with hitting a target at range prevented me from placing accurate hits. I was already burning in reverse and he figured that if he came charging at me he would've lost, so he pulled back and escaped with some scratches. Second, it should not take a Falchion and local terrain to barely beat a Madrugar. I would rather it be a Gunnlogi and local terrain to barely beat a Madrugar at close range and a Gunnlogi to easily destroy a Madrugar at range without allowing the Madrugar time to escape. Without any terrain advantageous to the Gunnlogi pilot, a Madrugar should defeat the Gunnlogi at close range.
Yotta Guns Molon Labe. League of Infamy 44	Posted - 2013.07.16 21:24:00 - [40] - Quote Eris Ernaga wrote: Yotta Guns wrote: Ccp isn't paying attention to tanks at all... Still waiting on the shield buff... Getting REAL tired of the "invincibility" module on the armor tanks. (also known as a armor rep). It's got a faster cooldown, and is waaay stronger than anything shield tanks have. Also, a rep tool for infantry to work on Shields. also, Shield tanks speed? Also, along with the other things, armor has more hp. shield tanks have passive recharge something armor don't get at all. As long as an armor tanks Shields are less than 100 percent (and they usually are, in combat) armor tanks have a passive shield Regen too. Not quite as strong, but your armor repper does waaaaaay more than make up fur it in any combat situation. :/

Yotta Guns Molon Labe. League of Infamy 44	Posted - 2013.07.16 21:29:00 - [41] - Quote Harpyja wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: ok, i run both maddies and logis with the exact same amount of SP into each. Shield tanks are underpowered when compared to armor tanks because their reppers have a 10(30):30 cycle, and armor has a 60(25):15 cycle. Also, armor reppers will rep over 6000 in a cycle, where shield tanks will rep 1500 (these are approximations) Even with stacked damage mods, a shield tank will not kill an armor tank UNLESS it is a falchion with proto cycled missiles, with 3 dmagae mods, and enforcer prof lvl 5. As long as the armor tank has reppers and hardeners going, the blaster will do more damage to the shield tank (even with reppers and hardeners on) than the shield tank can rep- therefore, the armor tank will almost every time, providing the skill is the same, ad the armor tank isnt using missiles. Let's not forget that the armor tank, due to its speed, gets to choose the terms of engagement, provided his is not ambushed by a falchion (fitted as recently described) For shield tanks to be viable, damage mods will have to give a 20% dmg bonus with no stacking penalty (like in chromosome), passive turret damage will again need to be 5%/lvl, and passive regen needs to be 100hp/s on shield tanks. Only then can shield tanks be viable in PC, and not a waste of money. I've played PC against some great shield tankers and beat them 90% of the time bc i deploy a maddy to counter them. They have some of the best tactics ive ever seen and still lose, even when im playing like an idiot, just because all i need to do is sttand still, turn on all hardeners and reppers, while i carefully aim my shots at them. it is completely no-skill-required kind of thing. shield tanks need buff. the end. I once encountered a very skilled Madrugar pilot while I was in my Falchion. I positioned myself at the bottom of a very small incline and he came thundering out from above. Since I could aim upwards and hit him while he couldn't aim down with his blaster to hit me, I pulled off a couple salvos of proto accelerated missiles before he started shooting at me. I get him down to very low armor, such that I would need only one more full salvo to hit and he was dead, and I was at roughly 1/2 shields. But the inevitable happened and only two of my missiles hit on the next salvo. His god-mode repper brought him back to life from near death and I started moving in the bumpy terrain so that I could get below his maximum angle of depression. Lucky for me, I managed to get below his maximum turret depression angle which saved me about a second. I shoot 2 or 3 more salvos into him and he finally gets destroyed, and I am left with maybe 1/5 shields. My adrenaline was running throughout the entire battle. There are a couple of things that I would like to point out that should not be happening. First, I was in an extremely close ranged engagement where only the terrain helped me win, otherwise I would've lost. I had already previously encountered him at range, but it only gave my position away and the difficulties with hitting a target at range prevented me from placing accurate hits. I was already burning in reverse and he figured that if he came charging at me he would've lost, so he pulled back and escaped with some scratches. Second, it should not take a Falchion and local terrain to barely beat a Madrugar. I would rather it be a Gunnlogi and local terrain to barely beat a Madrugar at close range and a Gunnlogi to easily destroy a Madrugar at range without allowing the Madrugar time to escape. Without any terrain advantageous to the Gunnlogi pilot, a Madrugar should defeat the Gunnlogi at close range. The armor shouldn't have taken that much damage from missiles. They are literally designed to stop armor tanks and they don't even come close.
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 9	Posted - 2013.07.16 22:07:00 - [42] - Quote Tanks are not meant to be skirmishing vehicles. They are meant to be mobile heavy weapons platforms, supporting infantry with anti-vehicle fires and limited anti-infantry fires. To this end, they should possess strong defenses, strong offenses, and be slow moving. Even our gaming term tank describes something that can take a lot of punishment, or a measure of something's ability to take punishment. They are not ,meant as get in, get out type vehicles. They are meant for staying power, lumbering behemoths on the battlefield, as opposed to the quick but fragile lavs that zip around and use speed and maneuverability to avoid destruction. Therefore, a shield tank should be able to take just as much punishment as an armor tank. However, there should be a different mechanic that gives shields a different flavor than armor. Armor should have lots of hp, but be slow to repair that damage. shield should have less total hp, but repair that damage quickly. Therefore, shield reps should rep large amounts per tick, but have a long cooldown, while armor should repair less per tick, but have more ticks on a short cooldown. In any case, the point of a tank is to soak up damage and keep on trucking. That's its job. It's a mobile base-of-fire for infantry to maneuver off of. They both need to be able to take lots of damage and dish out decent anti-vehicle damage and less anti-infantry damage than say a gunship. Making shield tanks a skirmish vehicle will only ruin what the purpose of the vehicle is.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 868	Posted - 2013.07.17 01:48:00 - [43] - Quote Aizen Intiki wrote: Oh shut up. Stay off the front lines scrub. You hit harder. I'm fully specced into both shield and armor tanks, and while what you say is true, it's certainly not balanced. The ability to increase damage output on a shield tank is not enough to counter the defensive capabilities of an armor tank. I struggled in PC battles to counter armor rail tanks for the longest time, using both full defense and full DPS fits. I finally specced into armor and the difference was staggering. In straight up tank vs tank combat, armor outclasses shields to an insane degree. Unfortunately because of PG restrictions on shield tanks, using damage mods significantly decreases the defensive capabilities of the shield tank. While this is great for the idea of a glass cannon, the increase of say what, 20-30% damage that you gain is simply not enough to counter the massive defensive capabilities of an armor tank. I think that more or less, the stats for Shield Boosters and Armor Repairers need to swapped. Shields should have lower EHP but capable of insane burst tanking, and armor should have weaker reps but higher resists and HP. Some will make the argument that shields are at the advantage because of passive shield recharge, but when recharge is lower than that of a dropsuit, that's really not gaining you much at all. The addition of proper passive tanking modules for a shield would make that a valid argument, but right now it's really not.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 2536	Posted - 2013.07.17 01:50:00 - [44] - Quote Yotta Guns wrote: Ccp isn't paying attention to tanks at all... Still waiting on the shield buff... Getting REAL tired of the "invincibility" module on the armor tanks. (also known as a armor rep). It's got a faster cooldown, and is waaay stronger than anything shield tanks have. Also, a rep tool for infantry to work on Shields. also, Shield tanks speed? Also, along with the other things, armor has more hp. It's not a shield tank, it's a Caldari tank. Like Amarr tech, it's slower because they build stuff for longer ranges.
Lightning Bolt2 DUST University Ivy League 56	Posted - 2013.07.17 02:49:00 - [45] - Quote havent read past OP. I feel you! CCP doesn't care about much (the only exception is Caldari Assaults and AR's) they balance based on the majority of DUST's playerbase (again Caldari Assaults and AR's) so CCP's nerfing everything that can beat AR's in 1 - 1!!!!! stat assaults without AV hate vehicles and want them nerfed... they want heavies nerfed to have less HP (not certain if they still want this nerf seeing how I see alot of Cal logis with more hp than a mlt heavy), scouts they got nerfed to have no speed (unless speed tanked... but assaults and logis can do it better with more stamina) CCP takes away the bone to any thing that can beat that Cal assault, next is logis (they do need it but we all know its going to be overkill than we'll get another respec) in short CCP only likes Cal Assaults. R.I.P. CoD 514
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 206	Posted - 2013.07.17 02:53:00 - [46] - Quote Yotta Guns wrote: Ccp isn't paying attention to tanks at all... Still waiting on the shield buff... Getting REAL tired of the "invincibility" module on the armor tanks. (also known as a armor rep). It's got a faster cooldown, and is waaay stronger than anything shield tanks have. Also, a rep tool for infantry to work on Shields. also, Shield tanks speed? Also, along with the other things, armor has more hp. only two races hav are available. why the hell do you want them balanced so bad now, when they'll just have to balance them again when the other two come out? also, stop being such a cry baby also, stop being such a cry baby also, HP doesn't matter as much as effective HP. you need to understand the difference.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 206	Posted - 2013.07.17 02:54:00 - [47] - Quote Lightning Bolt2 wrote: havent read past OP. I feel you! CCP doesn't care about much (the only exception is Caldari Assaults and AR's) they balance based on the majority of DUST's playerbase (again Caldari Assaults and AR's) so CCP's nerfing everything that can beat AR's in 1 - 1!!!!! stat assaults without AV hate vehicles and want them nerfed... they want heavies nerfed to have less HP (not certain if they still want this nerf seeing how I see alot of Cal logis with more hp than a mlt heavy), scouts they got nerfed to have no speed (unless speed tanked... but assaults and logis can do it better with more stamina) CCP takes away the bone to any thing that can beat that Cal assault, next is logis (they do need it but we all know its going to be overkill than we'll get another respec) in short CCP only likes Cal Assaults. R.I.P. CoD 514 dust uni.... as useless as eve uni.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 665	Posted - 2013.07.17 03:17:00 - [48] - Quote lol the pilot suit is going to make you tankers truly invincible. just hang on til then. heard it had a -50% reduction to active module cooldown time.


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