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Cat Merc
Oculus Felis
1744
   |
Posted - 2013.07.05 06:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Killar-12 wrote:Marston VC wrote:Quote:This I've been armour tanking since before Uprising and even with all of these goodies it makes jack all difference to how I armour tank.
Issue is that even if you do hit 450 EHP with 18.5 Armour Reps per sec then I can get 600+ EHP on the caldari equivalent with a base of 20+ Shield rep and that requires no mods what so ever, now tac on the fact I can no boost shield regen rate with energisers with no skill investment, then tac on the armour plates I can hit well over 680 EHP with better rep and regen than armour tankers.....
that means I have about 230 more EHP than you a faster regen rate, and I using the modules that make your tanking variant special to benefit the opposite type.
On this toon I can hit about 180 Shield and 391 Armour now and Im slowed to a crawl, essentially have no rep rate..... Im failing to see the balance at all. Nonono I have 450 armor, NOT EHP. I have about 550 EHP, but that's only the face value statistic. Sure your caldari logi suit might have 100+ HP on me, but you don't have a proto nanohive repping you at 70 HP per second....... 70 + 18 = 88 which is about 4.5 times more then your 20 shield regen per second, AND my reps happen regardless of wether or not im taking damage. That's what puts me on (almost) equal footing with that suit..... and obviously that suit can always hard counter me by chucking a nade into my hives. However I don't usually get into fights where I cant put the hive in a semi-safe spot anyway so it works out alright. no a Cal Logi has 750 Shields and +100 armor so you are beat by 300 hp also armor is slower. Here are ... Ideal Modes of Tanking Armor Tanking = able to do good in one large engagement but suffers at multiple engagements, Brawler High HP, Low Regen, Slow Shield Tanker = able to do well in small engagements and can recover quickly Low HP, High Regen, Easy to detect with Scanning Speed Tanker = able to avoid engagements/bullets and takes little damage from engagements but can't be involved in large engagements best paired with shield/repper tanking Must be paired with another type of tanking preferably shield but if Ferro plates are fixed then Armor too lowers Health but lowers amounts of bullets that actuallty hit the target Damage Mod Tanking = able to end engagements quicker but can't take as much damage Must be paired with another type of tanking preferably Armor but shields can be fitted easily. Brick/Dual tanker = allows to stay in combat longer but takes longer to return to combat Sub-type of Armor/Shields more raw HP less Regen Regen Tanker = allows quicker re-entry into combat but reduces time in combat Sub-type of Armor/Shields less raw HP more Regen just increase armor plate HP by x2 and reduce the speed penalty on complex armor plates to 7% to have a consistant interval of speed reduction. umm WRONG I just did the math after looking at all the relative stats. The absolute most shield HP a caldari logi can have is 670.5 NOT 750........ come on man that's like a reverse heavy, think about what your saying. so yeah...... EHP still = 100 more then me. Though it technically I could edge a little more on if I crammed complex plates on my suit with shield extenders..... but that's just dumb.
66 * 1.35 (25% from the racial bonus + 10% from the skill) = 89.1
89.1 * 5 = 445.5.
445.5 + 262 base shields (with skill) = 707.5 shields.
707.5 + 150 armor = 857.5 armor. |
Killar-12
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
10
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 06:59:00 -
[32] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Killar-12 wrote:Marston VC wrote:Quote:This I've been armour tanking since before Uprising and even with all of these goodies it makes jack all difference to how I armour tank.
Issue is that even if you do hit 450 EHP with 18.5 Armour Reps per sec then I can get 600+ EHP on the caldari equivalent with a base of 20+ Shield rep and that requires no mods what so ever, now tac on the fact I can no boost shield regen rate with energisers with no skill investment, then tac on the armour plates I can hit well over 680 EHP with better rep and regen than armour tankers.....
that means I have about 230 more EHP than you a faster regen rate, and I using the modules that make your tanking variant special to benefit the opposite type.
On this toon I can hit about 180 Shield and 391 Armour now and Im slowed to a crawl, essentially have no rep rate..... Im failing to see the balance at all. Nonono I have 450 armor, NOT EHP. I have about 550 EHP, but that's only the face value statistic. Sure your caldari logi suit might have 100+ HP on me, but you don't have a proto nanohive repping you at 70 HP per second....... 70 + 18 = 88 which is about 4.5 times more then your 20 shield regen per second, AND my reps happen regardless of wether or not im taking damage. That's what puts me on (almost) equal footing with that suit..... and obviously that suit can always hard counter me by chucking a nade into my hives. However I don't usually get into fights where I cant put the hive in a semi-safe spot anyway so it works out alright. no a Cal Logi has 750 Shields and +100 armor so you are beat by 300 hp also armor is slower. Here are ... Ideal Modes of Tanking Armor Tanking = able to do good in one large engagement but suffers at multiple engagements, Brawler High HP, Low Regen, Slow Shield Tanker = able to do well in small engagements and can recover quickly Low HP, High Regen, Easy to detect with Scanning Speed Tanker = able to avoid engagements/bullets and takes little damage from engagements but can't be involved in large engagements best paired with shield/repper tanking Must be paired with another type of tanking preferably shield but if Ferro plates are fixed then Armor too lowers Health but lowers amounts of bullets that actuallty hit the target Damage Mod Tanking = able to end engagements quicker but can't take as much damage Must be paired with another type of tanking preferably Armor but shields can be fitted easily. Brick/Dual tanker = allows to stay in combat longer but takes longer to return to combat Sub-type of Armor/Shields more raw HP less Regen Regen Tanker = allows quicker re-entry into combat but reduces time in combat Sub-type of Armor/Shields less raw HP more Regen just increase armor plate HP by x2 and reduce the speed penalty on complex armor plates to 7% to have a consistant interval of speed reduction. umm WRONG I just did the math after looking at all the relative stats. The absolute most shield HP a caldari logi can have is 670.5 NOT 750........ come on man that's like a reverse heavy, think about what your saying. so yeah...... EHP still = 100 more then me. Though it technically I could edge a little more on if I crammed complex plates on my suit with shield extenders..... but that's just dumb.
****, you're right tired thinking of another fit ok but still the rest of the post was copy paste from a better post of mine. I'm a little tired atm. |
Cat Merc
Oculus Felis
1746
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 06:59:00 -
[33] - Quote
Cruor Abominare wrote:ITT: people argue over to best fail fit suits. In the grand scheme of things 20hps is moot whether it's armor or shields. Guns average over 500 dps in this game and medium suits tend to be sub 900 hp brick fit. Yours basically halving that trying to active armor tank. You want hp back in-between fights? then live long enough to pop a hive with reps, they'll dwarf **** reps anyways.
There's two ways to live under fire, kill the other sob before he kills you or avoid getting hit via mobility/cover. Everything else is a pipe dream.
When nanohives are infinite then I will take your words seriously. |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
409
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Marston VC wrote:Quote:
Keep in mind that shield tankers have a base delay before they start their regen, while armour tanking regens constantly. I can definitely see how 18 hp/s regen even while getting fired at is beneficial. as to the 18 hp/s, if he's running a logi suit he gets an inbuilt 5 hp/s and 4 or 5 low slots, opening the possibility of 2 complex reps and 2 plates
Useless. 4 seconds is not that big of a deal. And they can reduce that further with shield regulators that go to LOW SLOTS. You should also keep in mind that the delay is bugged, it doesn't start from the last bullet that hits you, it starts from the first, so you can still regenerate under fire. Note that getting 18hp/s of regeneration means you have almost no HP, I have no idea how he gets 450hp but even with a complex plate and max skills you get almost nothing. Usually armor tankers have around 10hp/s to 5hp/s, and shields have inherent 25hp/s. A single module can put that in the 40's.
Alright cat, ill throw you a bone since your so determined. I use the gallente logi suit as my main suit. 3 highs, 4 meds, 5 lows. I get a 25% reduction to CPU and PG usage on all equipment used. Now..... knowing that can you please re-evaluate the legitimacy of my claims??? Because im looking at my fitting screen now and what ive said (off memory) is pretty much accurate (give or take 10 Hp).
Furthermore, 18 hp is my default passive gain (17.5 hp exact). The 1 v 3 fights I spoke about are almost always with the assistance of my proto triage nanohive (+70 hp/s while in the bubble which is MASSIVE btw......). That adds up to 88 hp/s with zero delay (1 second technically). So yeah! I want to see if you can figure out my high and low slot configuration.
I use the carthum assault scrambler rifle as my main, and the allotech stable nanohive, proto nanite injector, proto gauged nanohive, and proto triage nanohive.[/quote]
Sigh, and that's why your claims have no legitemacy until you share it.
Now that I know it's a logi I can say this is legit.
2x Complex repairers probably and then 5hp/s from the logi suit itself.
The armor HP comes from any number of combinations.
I could probably track it down if I really wanted to, but I don't feel like doing it right now.
However, your eHP would still be less than a caldari logi, and someone did the math a while ago, 1 extender > 1 damage mod.
And don't forget that damage mods have stacking penalties.[/quote]
hmmmm hmmmm....... yup your right! lol, i never said this suit was better then a caldari suit, but I will say that i can compete with one (which before the recently handed out respecs i wasn't able to do). The true glory of this suit comes with the triage nanohive increasing my reps to 88 hp/s. I mean that increases my survivability by A TON, but its hard to grasp. just how much of an advantage it is unless you've actually done it. Like i said, this suit is very reliant on the use of my equipment, and can be hard countered by explosives. But if i go 25-2 every match with 25-0 every once in a while..... the suit cant be that bad right??? And its not even like im hogging kills or anything, In squad play im a huge force multiplier. I mean..... i use the nanohives instead of reppers because they do the work for me, allowing me to shoot the bad guys. and the needle is amazing (especially now that its usable). Idk..... its not everyones style of play (and its mad expensive) but that's what its like with any proto suit really. |
Killar-12
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
10
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:02:00 -
[35] - Quote
a little Idea of mine kind of botched it up putting it with some well sketchy data about the Cal Logi.
Ideal Modes of Tanking (What It should be)
Armor Tanking = able to do good in one large engagement but suffers at multiple engagements, Brawler
High HP, Low Regen, Slow
Shield Tanker = able to do well in small engagements and can recover quickly
Low HP, High Regen, Easy to detect with Scanning
Speed Tanker = able to avoid engagements/bullets and takes little damage from engagements but can't be involved in large engagements best paired with shield/repper tanking
Must be paired with another type of tanking preferably shield but if Ferro plates are fixed then Armor too
lowers Health but lowers amounts of bullets that actuallty hit the target
Damage Mod Tanking = able to end engagements quicker but can't take as much damage
Must be paired with another type of tanking preferably Armor but shields can be fitted easily.
Brick/Dual tanker = allows to stay in combat longer but takes longer to return to combat
Sub-type of Armor/Shields more raw HP less Regen
Regen Tanker = allows quicker re-entry into combat but reduces time in combat
Sub-type of Armor/Shields less raw HP more Regen |
Killar-12
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
10
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Marston VC wrote:Quote:
Keep in mind that shield tankers have a base delay before they start their regen, while armour tanking regens constantly. I can definitely see how 18 hp/s regen even while getting fired at is beneficial. as to the 18 hp/s, if he's running a logi suit he gets an inbuilt 5 hp/s and 4 or 5 low slots, opening the possibility of 2 complex reps and 2 plates
Useless. 4 seconds is not that big of a deal. And they can reduce that further with shield regulators that go to LOW SLOTS. You should also keep in mind that the delay is bugged, it doesn't start from the last bullet that hits you, it starts from the first, so you can still regenerate under fire. Note that getting 18hp/s of regeneration means you have almost no HP, I have no idea how he gets 450hp but even with a complex plate and max skills you get almost nothing. Usually armor tankers have around 10hp/s to 5hp/s, and shields have inherent 25hp/s. A single module can put that in the 40's. Alright cat, ill throw you a bone since your so determined. I use the gallente logi suit as my main suit. 3 highs, 4 meds, 5 lows. I get a 25% reduction to CPU and PG usage on all equipment used. Now..... knowing that can you please re-evaluate the legitimacy of my claims??? Because im looking at my fitting screen now and what ive said (off memory) is pretty much accurate (give or take 10 Hp). Furthermore, 18 hp is my default passive gain (17.5 hp exact). The 1 v 3 fights I spoke about are almost always with the assistance of my proto triage nanohive (+70 hp/s while in the bubble which is MASSIVE btw......). That adds up to 88 hp/s with zero delay (1 second technically). So yeah! I want to see if you can figure out my high and low slot configuration. I use the carthum assault scrambler rifle as my main, and the allotech stable nanohive, proto nanite injector, proto gauged nanohive, and proto triage nanohive.
Sigh, and that's why your claims have no legitemacy until you share it.
Now that I know it's a logi I can say this is legit.
2x Complex repairers probably and then 5hp/s from the logi suit itself.
The armor HP comes from any number of combinations.
I could probably track it down if I really wanted to, but I don't feel like doing it right now.
However, your eHP would still be less than a caldari logi, and someone did the math a while ago, 1 extender > 1 damage mod.
And don't forget that damage mods have stacking penalties.[/quote]
hmmmm hmmmm....... yup your right! lol, i never said this suit was better then a caldari suit, but I will say that i can compete with one (which before the recently handed out respecs i wasn't able to do). The true glory of this suit comes with the triage nanohive increasing my reps to 88 hp/s. I mean that increases my survivability by A TON, but its hard to grasp. just how much of an advantage it is unless you've actually done it. Like i said, this suit is very reliant on the use of my equipment, and can be hard countered by explosives. But if i go 25-2 every match with 25-0 every once in a while..... the suit cant be that bad right??? And its not even like im hogging kills or anything, In squad play im a huge force multiplier. I mean..... i use the nanohives instead of reppers because they do the work for me, allowing me to shoot the bad guys. and the needle is amazing (especially now that its usable). Idk..... its not everyones style of play (and its mad expensive) but that's what its like with any proto suit really.[/quote]
couldn't a MD or Flux nade negate the hive with the AoE damage. |
Cat Merc
Oculus Felis
1746
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:03:00 -
[37] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Marston VC wrote:Quote:
Keep in mind that shield tankers have a base delay before they start their regen, while armour tanking regens constantly. I can definitely see how 18 hp/s regen even while getting fired at is beneficial. as to the 18 hp/s, if he's running a logi suit he gets an inbuilt 5 hp/s and 4 or 5 low slots, opening the possibility of 2 complex reps and 2 plates
Useless. 4 seconds is not that big of a deal. And they can reduce that further with shield regulators that go to LOW SLOTS. You should also keep in mind that the delay is bugged, it doesn't start from the last bullet that hits you, it starts from the first, so you can still regenerate under fire. Note that getting 18hp/s of regeneration means you have almost no HP, I have no idea how he gets 450hp but even with a complex plate and max skills you get almost nothing. Usually armor tankers have around 10hp/s to 5hp/s, and shields have inherent 25hp/s. A single module can put that in the 40's. Alright cat, ill throw you a bone since your so determined. I use the gallente logi suit as my main suit. 3 highs, 4 meds, 5 lows. I get a 25% reduction to CPU and PG usage on all equipment used. Now..... knowing that can you please re-evaluate the legitimacy of my claims??? Because im looking at my fitting screen now and what ive said (off memory) is pretty much accurate (give or take 10 Hp). Furthermore, 18 hp is my default passive gain (17.5 hp exact). The 1 v 3 fights I spoke about are almost always with the assistance of my proto triage nanohive (+70 hp/s while in the bubble which is MASSIVE btw......). That adds up to 88 hp/s with zero delay (1 second technically). So yeah! I want to see if you can figure out my high and low slot configuration. I use the carthum assault scrambler rifle as my main, and the allotech stable nanohive, proto nanite injector, proto gauged nanohive, and proto triage nanohive.
Sigh, and that's why your claims have no legitemacy until you share it.
Now that I know it's a logi I can say this is legit.
2x Complex repairers probably and then 5hp/s from the logi suit itself.
The armor HP comes from any number of combinations.
I could probably track it down if I really wanted to, but I don't feel like doing it right now.
However, your eHP would still be less than a caldari logi, and someone did the math a while ago, 1 extender > 1 damage mod.
And don't forget that damage mods have stacking penalties.[/quote]
hmmmm hmmmm....... yup your right! lol, i never said this suit was better then a caldari suit, but I will say that i can compete with one (which before the recently handed out respecs i wasn't able to do). The true glory of this suit comes with the triage nanohive increasing my reps to 88 hp/s. I mean that increases my survivability by A TON, but its hard to grasp. just how much of an advantage it is unless you've actually done it. Like i said, this suit is very reliant on the use of my equipment, and can be hard countered by explosives. But if i go 25-2 every match with 25-0 every once in a while..... the suit cant be that bad right??? And its not even like im hogging kills or anything, In squad play im a huge force multiplier. I mean..... i use the nanohives instead of reppers because they do the work for me, allowing me to shoot the bad guys. and the needle is amazing (especially now that its usable). Idk..... its not everyones style of play (and its mad expensive) but that's what its like with any proto suit really.[/quote]
I never said armor tanking isn't viable.
I'm saying Caldari suits and shield tanking do it better, always.
Heck even the developers themselves addmited it on a stream, there is currently no upside to armor tanking.
If nanohives were unlimited but had a recharge time, then we would be talking. |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
409
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:06:00 -
[38] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Cruor Abominare wrote:ITT: people argue over to best fail fit suits. In the grand scheme of things 20hps is moot whether it's armor or shields. Guns average over 500 dps in this game and medium suits tend to be sub 900 hp brick fit. Yours basically halving that trying to active armor tank. You want hp back in-between fights? then live long enough to pop a hive with reps, they'll dwarf **** reps anyways.
There's two ways to live under fire, kill the other sob before he kills you or avoid getting hit via mobility/cover. Everything else is a pipe dream. When nanohives are infinite then I will take your words seriously.
Its actually a tactic used in EVE online in almost every fight...... i view the wykromi triage nanohive as an active armor repper. With good awareness im able to set up scenarios were ill still have an advantage in a 3 v 1 fight. Granted..... 9 times out of 10 im not fighting very good players, but when im 1 v 1 ing people i can tell whos good and who isn't (and you know what? i win most of those too......). Your right when you say 20 hp/s doesn't mean much in combat, but ill be damned if you think 88 hp/s doesn't..... i mean what do you think im doing??? standing still? i strafe just as much as anyone else. If the enemy takes the time to focus on my nanohive then that's just time spent not damaging me. If the enemy ignores the nanohive and procedes to try and "out-strafe" me, i just beat him out using sheer survivability. I mean jeez..... its not like im bending over and taking it lying down when i 1 v 1 people..... The suit isn't 100% of the reason im doing well :/ |
Killar-12
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Cruor Abominare wrote:ITT: people argue over to best fail fit suits. In the grand scheme of things 20hps is moot whether it's armor or shields. Guns average over 500 dps in this game and medium suits tend to be sub 900 hp brick fit. Yours basically halving that trying to active armor tank. You want hp back in-between fights? then live long enough to pop a hive with reps, they'll dwarf **** reps anyways.
There's two ways to live under fire, kill the other sob before he kills you or avoid getting hit via mobility/cover. Everything else is a pipe dream. When nanohives are infinite then I will take your words seriously. Its actually a tactic used in EVE online in almost every fight...... i view the wykromi triage nanohive as an active armor repper. With good awareness im able to set up scenarios were ill still have an advantage in a 3 v 1 fight. Granted..... 9 times out of 10 im not fighting very good players, but when im 1 v 1 ing people i can tell whos good and who isn't (and you know what? i win most of those too......). Your right when you say 20 hp/s doesn't mean much in combat, but ill be damned if you think 88 hp/s doesn't..... i mean what do you think im doing??? standing still? i strafe just as much as anyone else. If the enemy takes the time to focus on my nanohive then that's just time spent not damaging me. If the enemy ignores the nanohive and procedes to try and "out-strafe" me, i just beat him out using sheer survivability. I mean jeez..... its not like im bending over and taking it lying down when i 1 v 1 people..... The suit isn't 100% of the reason im doing well :/
how large is your Epeen? |
Cat Merc
Oculus Felis
1747
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:11:00 -
[40] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Cruor Abominare wrote:ITT: people argue over to best fail fit suits. In the grand scheme of things 20hps is moot whether it's armor or shields. Guns average over 500 dps in this game and medium suits tend to be sub 900 hp brick fit. Yours basically halving that trying to active armor tank. You want hp back in-between fights? then live long enough to pop a hive with reps, they'll dwarf **** reps anyways.
There's two ways to live under fire, kill the other sob before he kills you or avoid getting hit via mobility/cover. Everything else is a pipe dream. When nanohives are infinite then I will take your words seriously. Its actually a tactic used in EVE online in almost every fight...... i view the wykromi triage nanohive as an active armor repper. With good awareness im able to set up scenarios were ill still have an advantage in a 3 v 1 fight. Granted..... 9 times out of 10 im not fighting very good players, but when im 1 v 1 ing people i can tell whos good and who isn't (and you know what? i win most of those too......). Your right when you say 20 hp/s doesn't mean much in combat, but ill be damned if you think 88 hp/s doesn't..... i mean what do you think im doing??? standing still? i strafe just as much as anyone else. If the enemy takes the time to focus on my nanohive then that's just time spent not damaging me. If the enemy ignores the nanohive and procedes to try and "out-strafe" me, i just beat him out using sheer survivability. I mean jeez..... its not like im bending over and taking it lying down when i 1 v 1 people..... The suit isn't 100% of the reason im doing well :/
Active armor repairers follow you around, are unlimited and can't be destroyed.
Also, I don't have to focus on your nanohive, I can focus on both, with one locus grenade.
Really, 450 armor is nothing for a locus grenade, I tested with my friend a core locus grenade and it just obliderated 735 armor + 150 shields. |
|
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Marston VC
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
409
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
Quote:
I never said armor tanking isn't viable.
I'm saying Caldari suits and shield tanking do it better, always.
Heck even the developers themselves addmited it on a stream, there is currently no upside to armor tanking.
If nanohives were unlimited but had a recharge time, then we would be talking.
[/quote]
Hmmmm...... the upside in my opinion is damage. I fit damage mods to my suit (that coupled with proficiency 4....). So what i end up having is suit with crazy damage, and very good survivability. Its crutch is definitely the nanohives but get three of those, and i only use them if the odds are in the enemies favor. I mean, im not tossing them out like candy..... if its a 1 v 1 i can usually suffice without the extra help, if its a 2 v 1 i drop the hive instinctively. Normally allowing me to still win. (unless explosives are involved, if theres grenades or flaylocks i have to approach the fight a bit differently).
But yeah..... i do want to emphasize that this suit (as of this date) has only been tested in public games. I do realize that there are very good players in this game, and many of them are better then me. So perhaps this suit would be much less effective in a competitive match. However i definitely have played against quality people in the last week or so, and at the very least, i think the suit is effective in what i want it to do. And its fun :) what else could i ask for right? |
Syther Shadows
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
196
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:13:00 -
[42] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Nah man, hybrid tanking is where its at The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neit... Oh wait, shields have no weakness, nevermind.
can i get a flux grenade ? |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
409
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:15:00 -
[43] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Marston VC wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Cruor Abominare wrote:ITT: people argue over to best fail fit suits. In the grand scheme of things 20hps is moot whether it's armor or shields. Guns average over 500 dps in this game and medium suits tend to be sub 900 hp brick fit. Yours basically halving that trying to active armor tank. You want hp back in-between fights? then live long enough to pop a hive with reps, they'll dwarf **** reps anyways.
There's two ways to live under fire, kill the other sob before he kills you or avoid getting hit via mobility/cover. Everything else is a pipe dream. When nanohives are infinite then I will take your words seriously. Its actually a tactic used in EVE online in almost every fight...... i view the wykromi triage nanohive as an active armor repper. With good awareness im able to set up scenarios were ill still have an advantage in a 3 v 1 fight. Granted..... 9 times out of 10 im not fighting very good players, but when im 1 v 1 ing people i can tell whos good and who isn't (and you know what? i win most of those too......). Your right when you say 20 hp/s doesn't mean much in combat, but ill be damned if you think 88 hp/s doesn't..... i mean what do you think im doing??? standing still? i strafe just as much as anyone else. If the enemy takes the time to focus on my nanohive then that's just time spent not damaging me. If the enemy ignores the nanohive and procedes to try and "out-strafe" me, i just beat him out using sheer survivability. I mean jeez..... its not like im bending over and taking it lying down when i 1 v 1 people..... The suit isn't 100% of the reason im doing well :/ Active armor repairers follow you around, are unlimited and can't be destroyed. Also, I don't to focus on your nanohive, I can focus on both, with one locus grenade. Really, 450 armor is nothing for a locus grenade, I tested with my friend a core locus grenade and it just obliderated 735 armor + 150 shields.
As said three times above, explosives are the hard counter to this suit. Similar to how flux grenades are the hard counter to shield tanked suits. I made a thread about how stupid Core grenades are already, and ill admit that even militia locus grenades can kill me with full health. When grenades get involved my tactics change, and the nanohive becomes much less of a priority. As of right now, i haven't found a counter tactic to use against the flaylock pistol. The best i can do is take them head on and hope to out DPS them. As for grenades, it shifts my tactics from being all about tanking to positioning.
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Killar-12
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:16:00 -
[44] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Quote:
I never said armor tanking isn't viable.
I'm saying Caldari suits and shield tanking do it better, always.
Heck even the developers themselves addmited it on a stream, there is currently no upside to armor tanking.
If nanohives were unlimited but had a recharge time, then we would be talking.
Hmmmm...... the upside in my opinion is damage. I fit damage mods to my suit (that coupled with proficiency 4....). So what i end up having is suit with crazy damage, and very good survivability. Its crutch is definitely the nanohives but get three of those, and i only use them if the odds are in the enemies favor. I mean, im not tossing them out like candy..... if its a 1 v 1 i can usually suffice without the extra help, if its a 2 v 1 i drop the hive instinctively. Normally allowing me to still win. (unless explosives are involved, if theres grenades or flaylocks i have to approach the fight a bit differently).
But yeah..... i do want to emphasize that this suit (as of this date) has only been tested in public games. I do realize that there are very good players in this game, and many of them are better then me. So perhaps this suit would be much less effective in a competitive match. However i definitely have played against quality people in the last week or so, and at the very least, i think the suit is effective in what i want it to do. And its fun :) what else could i ask for right?[/quote]
what's weird is that my experience with Triage nanohives shows that they are good to use on top of a tower or on the "mushroom" of some maps where cover is taken they are for use with cover not in the open. |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
409
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:16:00 -
[45] - Quote
Syther Shadows wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Nah man, hybrid tanking is where its at The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neit... Oh wait, shields have no weakness, nevermind. can i get a flux grenade ?
^lol
Scrambler rifles eat through shields by the way guys..... |
Killar-12
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:17:00 -
[46] - Quote
Syther Shadows wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Nah man, hybrid tanking is where its at The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neit... Oh wait, shields have no weakness, nevermind. can i get a flux grenade ?
that's one weapon out of many. |
Glori Jinn
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
17
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:17:00 -
[47] - Quote
I'm quite new to this whole discussion so please excuse any ignorance, but my observation is that all of these points and stats point at 1 vs. 1, in which case I think it's pretty hard to argue that armour is on a level playing field as shields, but wouldn't you normally expect an armour tanker to have a logi buddy nearby most of the time, significantly boosting that repair rate and therefore survivablility?
Presumably balancing is based on this (in tehory at least), given that a shield tanker has only himslef to rely on but in at least some (and I'd expect most) cases an armour tanker should be getting some support from a logi?
I appreciate that a lot of logi's don;t play their role correctly so this might not be the case in reality, but as a dedicated support logi myslef I can appreciate the theory behoind it.
Of course this is probably moot if the majority of logis out there don't even equip a repper but that would make me sad!
G |
Killar-12
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:18:00 -
[48] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Syther Shadows wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Nah man, hybrid tanking is where its at The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neit... Oh wait, shields have no weakness, nevermind. can i get a flux grenade ? ^lol Scrambler rifles eat through shields by the way guys.....
true but many more weapons are considerably better against armor |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
410
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:20:00 -
[49] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Marston VC wrote:Quote:
I never said armor tanking isn't viable.
I'm saying Caldari suits and shield tanking do it better, always.
Heck even the developers themselves addmited it on a stream, there is currently no upside to armor tanking.
If nanohives were unlimited but had a recharge time, then we would be talking.
Hmmmm...... the upside in my opinion is damage. I fit damage mods to my suit (that coupled with proficiency 4....). So what i end up having is suit with crazy damage, and very good survivability. Its crutch is definitely the nanohives but get three of those, and i only use them if the odds are in the enemies favor. I mean, im not tossing them out like candy..... if its a 1 v 1 i can usually suffice without the extra help, if its a 2 v 1 i drop the hive instinctively. Normally allowing me to still win. (unless explosives are involved, if theres grenades or flaylocks i have to approach the fight a bit differently). But yeah..... i do want to emphasize that this suit (as of this date) has only been tested in public games. I do realize that there are very good players in this game, and many of them are better then me. So perhaps this suit would be much less effective in a competitive match. However i definitely have played against quality people in the last week or so, and at the very least, i think the suit is effective in what i want it to do. And its fun :) what else could i ask for right?
what's weird is that my experience with Triage nanohives shows that they are good to use on top of a tower or on the "mushroom" of some maps where cover is taken they are for use with cover not in the open.[/quote]
Hey man, you'd be surprised how good they can be in the "open"..... but "open" is kind of a weird concept because its not like im a suicidal merc. I mean.... my suit costs 230k isk per fitting, and as a result i tend to play more defensively. I can be aggressive but even then its in a "safer" style. When i fight people i actively hunt for a good spot to place a nanohive. If its in an "open" field i find the nearest "hill" or "lump" to put the nanohive behind. (keep in mind the "hill" only has to be taller then the nanohive to work). This gives the hive sufficient cover to be.... 'safe' enough to help me. Otherwise im fighitn in CQC and cover is easy to find for the hives then. That coupled with the crazy range of the hive lets me take quite a few steps away from it. |
Killar-12
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:20:00 -
[50] - Quote
Glori Jinn wrote:I'm quite new to this whole discussion so please excuse any ignorance, but my observation is that all of these points and stats point at 1 vs. 1, in which case I think it's pretty hard to argue that armour is on a level playing field as shields, but wouldn't you normally expect an armour tanker to have a logi buddy nearby most of the time, significantly boosting that repair rate and therefore survivablility?
Presumably balancing is based on this (in tehory at least), given that a shield tanker has only himslef to rely on but in at least some (and I'd expect most) cases an armour tanker should be getting some support from a logi?
I appreciate that a lot of logi's don;t play their role correctly so this might not be the case in reality, but as a dedicated support logi myslef I can appreciate the theory behoind it.
Of course this is probably moot if the majority of logis out there don't even equip a repper but that would make me sad!
G
Armor Tankers ideally should have a huge HP pool but slow passive regen exept if actively repped (nanohives or rep tools)
Shield Tankers should have moderate HP pools but regen fast if they can find cover. |
|
|
Marston VC
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
410
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:21:00 -
[51] - Quote
Glori Jinn wrote:I'm quite new to this whole discussion so please excuse any ignorance, but my observation is that all of these points and stats point at 1 vs. 1, in which case I think it's pretty hard to argue that armour is on a level playing field as shields, but wouldn't you normally expect an armour tanker to have a logi buddy nearby most of the time, significantly boosting that repair rate and therefore survivablility?
Presumably balancing is based on this (in tehory at least), given that a shield tanker has only himslef to rely on but in at least some (and I'd expect most) cases an armour tanker should be getting some support from a logi?
I appreciate that a lot of logi's don;t play their role correctly so this might not be the case in reality, but as a dedicated support logi myslef I can appreciate the theory behoind it.
Of course this is probably moot if the majority of logis out there don't even equip a repper but that would make me sad!
G
Please read the last three pages of thread and hopefully you'll understand why a logi is unnecessary in this case..... and also keep in mind that some people agree/disagree with my opinion of the suit so take that as you will. |
Cat Merc
Oculus Felis
1750
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:25:00 -
[52] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Syther Shadows wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Nah man, hybrid tanking is where its at The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neit... Oh wait, shields have no weakness, nevermind. can i get a flux grenade ? ^lol Scrambler rifles eat through shields by the way guys.....
Scrambler rifle does 120/80. (shields/armor percentage)
All explosives, and I mean ALL, do 70/135.
Flux grenades aren't that great considering locus grenades instantly kill you, while flux just damage you.
Which is fine for shield tankers since all they have to do is take cover and let their powerful regen kick in. |
Killar-12
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:25:00 -
[53] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Glori Jinn wrote:I'm quite new to this whole discussion so please excuse any ignorance, but my observation is that all of these points and stats point at 1 vs. 1, in which case I think it's pretty hard to argue that armour is on a level playing field as shields, but wouldn't you normally expect an armour tanker to have a logi buddy nearby most of the time, significantly boosting that repair rate and therefore survivablility?
Presumably balancing is based on this (in tehory at least), given that a shield tanker has only himslef to rely on but in at least some (and I'd expect most) cases an armour tanker should be getting some support from a logi?
I appreciate that a lot of logi's don;t play their role correctly so this might not be the case in reality, but as a dedicated support logi myslef I can appreciate the theory behoind it.
Of course this is probably moot if the majority of logis out there don't even equip a repper but that would make me sad!
G Please read the last three pages of thread and hopefully you'll understand why a logi is unnecessary in this case..... and also keep in mind that some people agree/disagree with my opinion of the suit so take that as you will.
It's all a matter of combat doctrine regen vs pure HP tanking |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
410
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:25:00 -
[54] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Glori Jinn wrote:I'm quite new to this whole discussion so please excuse any ignorance, but my observation is that all of these points and stats point at 1 vs. 1, in which case I think it's pretty hard to argue that armour is on a level playing field as shields, but wouldn't you normally expect an armour tanker to have a logi buddy nearby most of the time, significantly boosting that repair rate and therefore survivablility?
Presumably balancing is based on this (in tehory at least), given that a shield tanker has only himslef to rely on but in at least some (and I'd expect most) cases an armour tanker should be getting some support from a logi?
I appreciate that a lot of logi's don;t play their role correctly so this might not be the case in reality, but as a dedicated support logi myslef I can appreciate the theory behoind it.
Of course this is probably moot if the majority of logis out there don't even equip a repper but that would make me sad!
G Armor Tankers ideally should have a huge HP pool but slow passive regen exept if actively repped (nanohives or rep tools) Shield Tankers should have moderate HP pools but regen fast if they can find cover.
Who ever said armor tanks "ideally" have huge hp pools???? Lol, that's such a funny concept.... saying what things "should be" in a game that offers nearly limitless customization options. People say heavies are supposed to be slow with lots of HP, but that didn't stop me from meeting people who speed tanked heavies. Its all about your perception about these things man. When i got my respect..... no even before that i said "i want to armor tank with good damage to back it up" So for as early as two weeks before i got it (finally) i researched the best suit, and combination of modules that would produce a suit like this. Originally i was going to go proto amar logi, then i switched it to caldari, then i realized that gallente would be best for what i wanted to do. Then i discovered how the suit can be made even more effective using nanohives and kaboom, ive got what i got today. The IDEAL suit for ME...... simple as that!  |
Killar-12
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
12
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Killar-12 wrote:Glori Jinn wrote:I'm quite new to this whole discussion so please excuse any ignorance, but my observation is that all of these points and stats point at 1 vs. 1, in which case I think it's pretty hard to argue that armour is on a level playing field as shields, but wouldn't you normally expect an armour tanker to have a logi buddy nearby most of the time, significantly boosting that repair rate and therefore survivablility?
Presumably balancing is based on this (in tehory at least), given that a shield tanker has only himslef to rely on but in at least some (and I'd expect most) cases an armour tanker should be getting some support from a logi?
I appreciate that a lot of logi's don;t play their role correctly so this might not be the case in reality, but as a dedicated support logi myslef I can appreciate the theory behoind it.
Of course this is probably moot if the majority of logis out there don't even equip a repper but that would make me sad!
G Armor Tankers ideally should have a huge HP pool but slow passive regen exept if actively repped (nanohives or rep tools) Shield Tankers should have moderate HP pools but regen fast if they can find cover. Who ever said armor tanks "ideally" have huge hp pools???? Lol, that's such a funny concept.... saying what things "should be" in a game that offers nearly limitless customization options. People say heavies are supposed to be slow with lots of HP, but that didn't stop me from meeting people who speed tanked heavies. Its all about your perception about these things man. When i got my respect..... no even before that i said "i want to armor tank with good damage to back it up" So for as early as two weeks before i got it (finally) i researched the best suit, and combination of modules that would produce a suit like this. Originally i was going to go proto amar logi, then i switched it to caldari, then i realized that gallente would be best for what i wanted to do. Then i discovered how the suit can be made even more effective using nanohives and kaboom, ive got what i got today. The IDEAL suit for ME...... simple as that!
Okay, true but some things favor certian other things, sure in Eve you can shield tank with a gallente ship but it will be more effective if you armor tank. |
Cat Merc
Oculus Felis
1751
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
Glori Jinn wrote:I'm quite new to this whole discussion so please excuse any ignorance, but my observation is that all of these points and stats point at 1 vs. 1, in which case I think it's pretty hard to argue that armour is on a level playing field as shields, but wouldn't you normally expect an armour tanker to have a logi buddy nearby most of the time, significantly boosting that repair rate and therefore survivablility?
Presumably balancing is based on this (in tehory at least), given that a shield tanker has only himslef to rely on but in at least some (and I'd expect most) cases an armour tanker should be getting some support from a logi?
I appreciate that a lot of logi's don;t play their role correctly so this might not be the case in reality, but as a dedicated support logi myslef I can appreciate the theory behoind it.
Of course this is probably moot if the majority of logis out there don't even equip a repper but that would make me sad!
G
Proto logi rep tool = 102hp/s.
Standard assault rifle without any skills or damage mods = 430 DPS.
So a rookie assault > Proto Logi. >_> |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
410
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:30:00 -
[57] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Marston VC wrote:Syther Shadows wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Nah man, hybrid tanking is where its at The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neit... Oh wait, shields have no weakness, nevermind. can i get a flux grenade ? ^lol Scrambler rifles eat through shields by the way guys..... Scrambler rifle does 120/80. (shields/armor percentage) All explosives, and I mean ALL, do 70/135. Flux grenades aren't that great considering locus grenades instantly kill you, while flux just damage you. Which is fine for shield tankers since all they have to do is take cover and let their powerful regen kick in.
Ok..... well i mean, in that argument the frag is guaranteed to kill instantly. But how does that work exactly?? Because ill let you know now that ill move away from a grenade if it wasn't cooked and just thrown at me. And if it is cooked that means the guy im fighting spent precious time cooking it and not shooting at me. Three seconds is more then enough time to drop somebody (or falling back out of his accurate throwing range). Sure its the same for fluxes too, but my suit specifically is based off "fast" regen. I mean, im repping passively as fast as the minmatar assault, only i don't have to wait.... period. Lol.... it took about three or four days of rage for me to learn but i like to think i have a 6th sense in regards to locus grenades now.... i mean i have too! considering the grenade indicator is still broken  |
Cat Merc
Oculus Felis
1751
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:30:00 -
[58] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Marston VC wrote:Glori Jinn wrote:I'm quite new to this whole discussion so please excuse any ignorance, but my observation is that all of these points and stats point at 1 vs. 1, in which case I think it's pretty hard to argue that armour is on a level playing field as shields, but wouldn't you normally expect an armour tanker to have a logi buddy nearby most of the time, significantly boosting that repair rate and therefore survivablility?
Presumably balancing is based on this (in tehory at least), given that a shield tanker has only himslef to rely on but in at least some (and I'd expect most) cases an armour tanker should be getting some support from a logi?
I appreciate that a lot of logi's don;t play their role correctly so this might not be the case in reality, but as a dedicated support logi myslef I can appreciate the theory behoind it.
Of course this is probably moot if the majority of logis out there don't even equip a repper but that would make me sad!
G Please read the last three pages of thread and hopefully you'll understand why a logi is unnecessary in this case..... and also keep in mind that some people agree/disagree with my opinion of the suit so take that as you will. It's all a matter of combat doctrine regen vs pure HP tanking
HP tanking in this game isn't viable.
That is all. |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
410
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:30:00 -
[59] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Glori Jinn wrote:I'm quite new to this whole discussion so please excuse any ignorance, but my observation is that all of these points and stats point at 1 vs. 1, in which case I think it's pretty hard to argue that armour is on a level playing field as shields, but wouldn't you normally expect an armour tanker to have a logi buddy nearby most of the time, significantly boosting that repair rate and therefore survivablility?
Presumably balancing is based on this (in tehory at least), given that a shield tanker has only himslef to rely on but in at least some (and I'd expect most) cases an armour tanker should be getting some support from a logi?
I appreciate that a lot of logi's don;t play their role correctly so this might not be the case in reality, but as a dedicated support logi myslef I can appreciate the theory behoind it.
Of course this is probably moot if the majority of logis out there don't even equip a repper but that would make me sad!
G Proto logi rep tool = 102hp/s. Standard assault rifle without any skills or damage mods = 430 DPS. So a rookie assault > Proto Logi. >_>
Well obviously...... you cant rep yourself with a rep tool silly  |
Cat Merc
Oculus Felis
1751
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:32:00 -
[60] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:Ok..... well i mean, in that argument the frag is guaranteed to kill instantly. But how does that work exactly?? Because ill let you know now that ill move away from a grenade if it wasn't cooked and just thrown at me. And if it is cooked that means the guy im fighting spent precious time cooking it and not shooting at me. Three seconds is more then enough time to drop somebody (or falling back out of his accurate throwing range). Sure its the same for fluxes too, but my suit specifically is based off "fast" regen. I mean, im repping passively as fast as the minmatar assault, only i don't have to wait.... period. Lol.... it took about three or four days of rage for me to learn but i like to think i have a 6th sense in regards to locus grenades now.... i mean i have too! considering the grenade indicator is still broken
Yeah, I can by now predict when someone is going to throw a grenade lol |
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