Impressive detail OP.
I greatly enjoyed reading through the various suggested fixes you had and your thoroughly detailed description of the issues.

Not like it would matter, they don't listen to the feedback anyways.

Shield tanks are fine. This is coming from a Gunnlogi pilot with 8m SP invested into them.

They work great when thrown in with infantry. The natural shield regen coupled with explosive resistance lets you stay with your infantry and soak up a bunch of damage for them. Shield tanks lose out to armor tanks 1v1 though, which, given the shields strengths, I think is a fair tradeoff. Armor doesn't last nearly as long when combined with infantry as shields do.

People like you don't understand that armor reps are three times as powerful than shield boosters. Even if anti-armor weapons dealt twice as much damage than anti-shield weapons did (which they don't), armor still reps three times as much hp than shield. Shields should be able to burst tank, but armor does that better than shield, and shield should also be able to fit passive tanks as well (but the shield regen is absolute crap).

Shield tanks are fine. This is coming from a Gunnlogi pilot with 8m SP invested into them.

They work great when thrown in with infantry. The natural shield regen coupled with explosive resistance lets you stay with your infantry and soak up a bunch of damage for them. Shield tanks lose out to armor tanks 1v1 though, which, given the shields strengths, I think is a fair tradeoff. Armor doesn't last nearly as long when combined with infantry as shields do.

People forget that Caldari is for ranged engagements and general support fire, basically the "snipers". Plus, you not natural repps.....

^ has never done PC before, point invalidated.


To anyone and everyone who think tanks in general are fine. Why are there next to NO tanks in PC? And to anyone who thinks shield tanks are fine, why are the 2 tanks in PC armor tanks?

Riddle me that. If you have an answer that isn't ******** you will shut up me and every other tanker in the world.

As much as I agree with balancing tanks arround pc this is not the best answer as only about 5% of the dust population if that get to participate in pc so balancing on elietist gameplay will put the rest of the game into unbalance. Plain and simple.

Yes pc is the endgame and all classes should be viable in pc but I think we would find more balance if ccp would just give us reallproto havs . You wouldent dream of entering pc with just std suits and all we really have is std havs. I do think if and when proto havs are released we will have the balance we are all looking for.

Why do armor tanks make better railtanks then?


People just STFU if you don't know what you're talking about.

Aye, I do agree on that front.

When did they? I always did better with a Caldari HAV Rail sniping. You must be doing it wrong, or go against terribad rail snipers.


Peace, Godin

When did they? I always did better with a Caldari HAV Rail sniping. You must be doing it wrong, or go against terribad rail snipers.


Peace, Godin

Because railguns are more effective against shield than armor. You sir must be doing it wrong.

Impressive detail OP.
I greatly enjoyed reading through the various suggested fixes you had and your thoroughly detailed description of the issues.

What does a Caldari do better for rail sniping?

More EHP? Gallente. Better way to repair? Gallente. More damage? Same. More mobility? Gallente. Better resistences? Gallente.

Incorrect. If the Gallente Rail sniper has more EHP than the Caldari tank, it does not have better mobility, and it does not do more damage. Shield tanks have better resistances for a shorter period of time, which makes sense when you should only be activating them to get your tank behind cover quickly, since you should be far and away from the combat.

The Madrugar can be equal to the Gunnlogi when fit with Railguns on some fronts, but it sacrifices on others. It is capable of higher damage at the cost of incredibly paper thin tank, it is capable of going faster at NIL tank, it is capable of higher EHP at the cost of all mobility..

The only 100% correct point you have there is Armor repair modules are indeed "better" than shield regenerators. Probably has something to do with CCP factoring in natural shield regen rate.

Edit: Before being flamed for absolutely no reason and have people make entirely irate assumptions about me, my personal life, and how I play this game, yes. I armor tank. I am Gallente and only spec into Gallente Suits and vehicles (and for the most part weaponry). That said, I have used far more shield tanks than armor tanks, although I've used both. So trying to say I don't have any opinion here is wrong, leave it. I have done mostly okay in matches with my really poorly fit Sicas (I have little to no vehicle shield SP invested, only armor). That said, I can agree that shields on the vehicle level need A MODERATE amount of love. 90% of what people are calling for would just throw armor out of favor and shield into favor. Remember the flavor.

Armor tanks deal with opposing tanks better, shield tanks synergize with infantry better.

i was a armor tanker till the 2nd uprising respec and we are hurting pretty bad i never cared for rails much so i wont mention those but my blaster tanks couldnt fit a 180mm plate without giving up 2 slots to pg expansions i could fit a 120mm and a 60mm which saved something like 300-400 pg and had a worse penalty than a 180mm but id still be giving up on damage resistance(in my case i could only use passives due to issues with KB/M)

the only madrugar of mine that could fit a 180mm plate was a STD missile tank.....

while shield tanks couldnt slot nitros without giving up a slot atleast you guys dont have to give up your main slots for pg expansions....

buuut i also believe shield tanks need a buff in fact i wonder how much better the would do with a decent natural shield recharge...(both tanks as a whole need a buff or atleast give us ADV/PRO vehicles.....)

Just flat out lying. A single 180mm plate gets you higher HP than we can ever achieve. With no mods, you have better mobility (though you have acess to nitrous boosters while we do not).

Shield tanks have 5% better resistance for TEN seconds. No shield tank worth a **** uses surge modules. We are forced to use the 15% passive resistences. You get 25% hardeners.

I said they have the SAME damage. Learn to read.

It is not for no reason that you are flamed. It's because you come to a thread with no information and spout lies.

EDIT: The only reason I care about those lies is we need less people spreading them so the healing can begin. CCP needs to take notice.

And I don't know if you're thinking I want armor tanks nerfed. On the contrary they need to be buffed as well.

We have next to no representation in PC and that is because we are weak.

The uprising nerf to vehicles did indeed hit armor harder than shields. It's bullcrap and we need to get that reverted/mended.

Yeah, with NO tank at all is the Madrugar faster than the Gunnlogi. Unless you have a fetish with "living on the edge" you're not going in without plates, and a single 60 plate is all it takes to go slower than the Gunnlogi, where most people will use 120s or 180s. To use 180s we have to further sacrifice low slots (read: our survivability) using PG modifier modules. By comparison, a single Complex plate on a dropsuit gives ridiculously higher armor levels than complex shield extenders (pretty much 2:1 ratio) but shields are arguably favored in the dropsuit department.

To claim that what I said is a lie, when none of it was, is funny. Also, am I allowed to complain that you get passive resists that are higher than our passive resists? Or are we just going to overlook that? And both tanks are hurting inexorably for powergrid, but at least you don't have to give up tank slots to use them. You do have to sacrifice the claim to damage mods which you should rightly have, however.

If an armor tank isn't ****fit then your shield tank is faster 100% of the time. But you guys ALWAYS ignore that simply because our base speed is higher. It's time to get over that fact and start dealing with the problems related to shield tanking that ACTUALLY matter. Like:

1) Powergrid problems (due to the powergrid skill change and this hurts all HAVs)
2) Active Hardeners should last ~15s as opposed to 10, while keeping the amount bonus
3) Shield tanks should be enticed into longer range, high powered railgun roles in a better manner (role definition)
4) Shield Active Reps need to be higher bursts than armor (armor should be slower but stay in the thick of the fight longer)

These aren't "big buffs" necessary to shield tanks. The shield modules need minor tweaks to be brought in line, not giant changes. Being so quick to "Waaaaaah" and "Waaah" loudly are what bring about free militia LAVs that take prototype level equipment to take out.

Edit: Please understand that despite being an armor tanker I am interested in balance and flavor, not in making armor "master race" or anything similar.

what about changes to both armor and shield hardeners/passives as well as shield boosters and possibly armor reppers

limiting both sides to 1 of each item

shield hardeners +5 second duration same cooldown and a significant buff to the damage resistance to promote burst tanking
shield passives light buff to make up for only having one(low end passive 15% and high end 25%?) to allow for some passive damage resistance while still focusing on burst tanking
shield boosters shorter durration same cooldown large buff to shield recharged(up to the 4k to 5k hp range? im not sure on exact amount for it to be balanced) and raising shield tank's passive shield recharge rate

armor hardeners same durration +5 second cooldown and 15-20% damage resistance
energized plates buff to 20-30%
armor reppers not sure on these i think they are fine as is.... maybe a slight buff(probably to duration) if they are weak in terms of balance after any changes to damage resistance mods

and after all that removing damage resistance stacking penalties since only 1 of each will be fittable

just some ideas obviously values i suggested would most likely be changed for balance

Theres some good ideas and some not so good ideas in there. Why buff armor passive hardeners and nerf their actives?

Passive tanking and Burst tanking are what shields excel at in EvE.

Sustained tanking is supposed to be armor's thing.

Its because people want to play outside of their role and whine on the forums about it. It gets hard to read sometimes.

Why not just make one faction, one suit, one AR, one grenade, one sidearm, screw the vehicles, and make space CoD?

what about changes to both armor and shield hardeners/passives as well as shield boosters and possibly armor reppers

limiting both sides to 1 of each item

shield hardeners +5 second duration same cooldown and a significant buff to the damage resistance to promote burst tanking
shield passives light buff to make up for only having one(low end passive 15% and high end 25%?) to allow for some passive damage resistance while still focusing on burst tanking
shield boosters shorter durration same cooldown large buff to shield recharged(up to the 4k to 5k hp range? im not sure on exact amount for it to be balanced) and raising shield tank's passive shield recharge rate

armor hardeners same durration +5 second cooldown and 15-20% damage resistance
energized plates buff to 20-30%
armor reppers not sure on these i think they are fine as is.... maybe a slight buff(probably to duration) if they are weak in terms of balance after any changes to damage resistance mods

and after all that removing damage resistance stacking penalties since only 1 of each will be fittable

just some ideas obviously values i suggested would most likely be changed for balance

as someone who has armor tanked this build i cant agree with the changes to armor reppers that your suggesting 414/3 sec is too slow it was take 9 seconds to rep 1200 armor which is less than even a militia swarm can do in 3 seconds(flight time aside)
swarms and assault forges would destroy armor tanks before their reppers could even make a difference which is why i made my suggestion on reppers

if u want to make shield boosters "burst heal" why not make them rep somewhere in the 4500-6k range in a short period of time(say 5 seconds maybe a short 3 second delay before it kicks in for balance) that would be 900-1200/sec

i think armors 1200/3 sec is fair as is it significantly slows damage after you apply damage resistance but its still not too high that it out reps accurate low/mid level or high level AV damage sources i suppose it could take a small hit to rep rate but not 1/3 but it would need to last longer as well maybe 200-300/s for 20 seconds or something

People like you don't understand that armor reps are three times as powerful than shield boosters. Even if anti-armor weapons dealt twice as much damage than anti-shield weapons did (which they don't), armor still reps three times as much hp than shield. Shields should be able to burst tank, but armor does that better than shield, and shield should also be able to fit passive tanks as well (but the shield regen is absolute crap).

as someone who has armor tanked this build i cant agree with the changes to armor reppers that your suggesting 414/3 sec is too slow it was take 9 seconds to rep 1200 armor which is less than even a militia swarm can do in 3 seconds(flight time aside)
swarms and assault forges would destroy armor tanks before their reppers could even make a difference which is why i made my suggestion on reppers

if u want to make shield boosters "burst heal" why not make them rep somewhere in the 4500-6k range in a short period of time(say 5 seconds maybe a short 3 second delay before it kicks in for balance) that would be 900-1200/sec

i think armors 1200/3 sec is fair as is it significantly slows damage after you apply damage resistance but its still not too high that it out reps accurate low/mid level or high level AV damage sources i suppose it could take a small hit to rep rate but not 1/3 but it would need to last longer as well maybe 200-300/s for 20 seconds or something

i thought gallente focused more on repping instead of buffer to maintain any sort speed(coulda swore thats why they got the higher base speed) but i dont play eve(would like to) so idk

as far as my suggestion on the small delay before the booster kicked in it was a suggestion to promote balance.. you would have to time your booster early to get the most out of the recharge instead of being able to throw it on at the last second and go from almost no shield to med/high shield in seconds

Currently, I believe armor reps finish their cycles somewhere between 15-20s and boosters finish after 15 seconds. In order to make shield boosters favor burst tanking and make armor reps favor sustained tanking, I think shield boosters should not only have an increased hp/s, but also a smaller cycle time than 15s, and armor reps should provide less hp/s than the shield booster but are active for a longer period of time.

Like for example, let's use pegasis' proposal of repping 4500 hp in 10 seconds to equal 450 hp/s. The current best armor rep does 414hp/s. Shield boosters in EVE cycle significantly faster than armor reps do. So I suggest to make shield boosters pulse for 450 shield every second for 10 seconds, and make armor reps pulse once every 3 seconds for 45 seconds. The best armor rep will remain with 414 hp repaired per pulse.

Let's do the math. The best shield booster will rep a total of 4500 shield. The best armor rep will rep a total of 6210 armor (which is the current amount, except this will now be slower).

Now let's add cooldowns. The current cycle time for a shield booster is 45 seconds, and the current cycle time for armor reps is 45-50 seconds (can an armor tanker help me on this?). Shield boosters will have their cooldown increased to 35 seconds to accommodate a 5 second reduction to its active time, and armor reps will have their cooldown decreased to 5 seconds to accomodate the increase in duration of its active time.

Personally, I think shield boosters should do slightly more than 4500 hp, but that might just be from my own bias.

I think this is the ideal solution because now shield tanks can burst tank and armor tanks can only sustain a moderate tank without being able to burst tank. Also, the shield booster will now have an active duration equal to the shield hardener so the EHP repped during both active cycles will also be greater than it currently is.

Please, I want some feedback on this and also should I copy and pasta this into my own thread?

I'm sorry that armor reps were placed into God-mode when they shouldn't be. If you play EVE, you'll find that any armor tanker for PvP does not have an armor rep, but rather a lot of buffer armor and resists be ause armor reps are the slow and steady healers while shield boosters are the aggressive ones. Sure, some ships have bonuses towards armor reps and have incredibly strong armor rep tank fits, but the majority of armor ships rely on buffer.

I'm not saying that armor tanks in Dust should rely on buffer only. I'm just saying that they have too good of a burst tank, when they are meant for sustained reps. I don't agree with you that shield boosters should have a small warm up period. Armor reps in EVE intentionally rep at the end of each cycle while shield boosters are effective immediately.

But my bias likes your suggestion for shield boosters to boost 900-1200hp/s for five seconds

Edit: but if you really don't want armor rep rate to slow, then I think shield boosters should have about 3x the hp/s than armor, just as you proposed, as shield boosters in EVE are somewhat that more effective than armor reps (at the cost of a lot more capacitor usage).

Why do armor tanks make better railtanks then?


People just STFU if you don't know what you're talking about.

Shield Tank need more PowerGrid. It would fixe the Issue. We cant even equip proto blaster / railgun without having to remove our Shield Extender or Shield booster wich suck Considering the armor tank can fit all proto Gun easy and still have a Big as tanking buff

One man with a proto forge can back off tanks with ease. One man dominating a piece of equipment, which is trash, that costs so much. The infantry on the forums here cried until CCP made tanks something that someone could solo..

Shield Tank need more PowerGrid. It would fixe the Issue. We cant even equip proto blaster / railgun without having to remove our Shield Extender or Shield booster wich suck Considering the armor tank can fit all proto Gun easy and still have a Big as tanking buff

The proto forge cannon is ridiculously over powered I agree with you on this. Every tank with any fit look like paper in front of them.

both tanks need powergrid and blasters are gallente tech made for gallente tanks u should have problems using them just like gallente tanks should have a tough time slotting rails and missiles

and no armor tanks cant fit a proto turret and still get alot of buffer if a gallente tank puts on any sort of blaster itll need 2 pg expansions to fit a 180mm plate

a proto forge will keep me from even being able to react before i'm killed sometimes. seriously... i'm dead in seconds if a proto assault forge targets me. :(