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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3966
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Posted - 2013.05.24 04:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
*All stats are prototype level* *Ranges found here*
[Comparison] Scrambler rifle Damage per shot: 79.2 Maximum DPS (with modded controller): 931.79 DPS if 5 shots fired per second: Damage before stopping (overheat reload): When I shoot to overheat the fastest, I can fire 15 shots before overheating which is 1188 damage, and the magazine contains 3564 damage, so 1188-3564 Maximum range: 87 Effective range: 1-48
Tactical assault rifle Damage per shot: 78.5 Maximum DPS (with modded controller): 1032.93 DPS if 5 shots fired per second: 392.5 Damage before stopping (reload): 2355 Maximum range: 100 Effective range: 1-65 I don't know how much damage the charge shot does exactly, but in the 2 seconds it takes to fully charge, a tactical AR can deal over 2,000 damage (with modded controller), or 792 damage if 5 shots are fired per second.
Out of these long range single fire rifles, the tactical AR beats the scrambler rifle in maximum range, in effective range, damage per second. The overheat mechanic severely limits the amount of damage it can dish out, and the only way to avoid overheat is to sacrifice shot frequency which means even less DPS. The tactical AR is extremely deadly at both extreme ranges (exceeding the laser), and at close range. The scrambler rifle by comparison suffers from very steep damage dropoff (charge shots sometimes only take out shields at long ranges), and it is just plain useless for CQC because of the overheating.
Why is the tactical which has superior range also better at CQC? Why is the scrambler rifle terrible for CQC despite its inferior range?
[Solution] All assault rifles including the tactical are blasters, which are suppose to be short range by comparison to other weapon types. Laser weapons are suppose to be long range. With this in mind, I think it would be a good idea to nerf the range of the tactical, and buff the range of the the scrambler. A scope with similar zoom as the tactical would be nice as well (though keep the current sight for the assault scrambler). A modest reduction in scrambler rifle heat build up would also be nice.
[Other] Limit all single fire rifles to 420 RPM (7 shots per second) to prevent abuse by modded controllers. No one can do 700 RPM anyway without modded controllers, so its pointless to have it so high.
The scrambler rifle operations skill bonus is useless for the assault scrambler rifle since it doesn't have charge.
The Amarr assault bonus is useless for the assault scrambler rifle since it never overheats anyway, you can empty out a magazine and not overheat.
Thank you for reading. |
Jenova's Witness
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2013.05.24 05:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Heated or phased plasma shouldn't out range photon laser pulses. The weapon physics in Dust are embarrassing enough to make Tony Gonzales add footnotes to Templar One. |
EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2013.05.24 06:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
I fully support reducing the range of not just the TAR, but all of the Gallente Assault Rifles a bit. Our weapons should reign supreme in close quarters combat, with the Assault Rifles rounding out our potential into longer range options. The TAR should keep a range advantage over the other rifles, though I will agree modded controllers are a bit of a problem.
The Caldari Assault rifles should have greater range than the Gallente Plasma ARs at the cost of some reduced damage output.
Lasers should have really good range with okay DPS. |
137H4RGIC
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
68
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Posted - 2013.05.24 07:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
It is kind of silly to say that ARs should reign supreme when a Heavy is involved. HMGs are the king of CQB, followed by shotguns.
Only now do I finally understand why ARs have a 60m range, and heavies have 30. Still though, in open maps, heavies are just downright useless. They're immobile, and rangeless. I have been picked off by TARs at 60m quite often, and it's irritating because if I close the distance, they'll only do more damage. Thus, my only option is to run and find cover as soon as I can. And hope, he doesn't Sight camp me until more buddies have arrived. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3969
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Posted - 2013.05.24 11:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
137H4RGIC wrote:It is kind of silly to say that ARs should reign supreme when a Heavy is involved. HMGs are the king of CQB, followed by shotguns.
Only now do I finally understand why ARs have a 60m range, and heavies have 30. Still though, in open maps, heavies are just downright useless. They're immobile, and rangeless. I have been picked off by TARs at 60m quite often, and it's irritating because if I close the distance, they'll only do more damage. Thus, my only option is to run and find cover as soon as I can. And hope, he doesn't Sight camp me until more buddies have arrived. This has nothing to do with the heavy or the HMG, and I agree the HMG needs more range, but that is not the point of this thread at all. This thread is balancing the Amarr and Gallente racial rifles (scrambler rifle and assault rifle). |
Imp Smash
On The Brink CRONOS.
109
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Posted - 2013.05.24 11:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kagehoshi.../signed |
Rei Shepard
Spectre II
300
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Posted - 2013.05.24 11:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Good post, agree with it i use the Imperial SCR and also have access to the TAC theres nothing the Imperial can do that the TAC cant do better. While keeping it murder for use in cqc while with the SCR, how many times i have not been there "guy on 1 mm of health killing me as my SCR overheats" with the tac i would have 15 more rounds to slug into him. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
358
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Posted - 2013.05.24 22:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
I got the impression when uprising came out that they didn't want people to die as quickly as they had in chromosome, which makes sense for a more strategic shooter I think. An armored/shielded suit probably shouldn't die like unarmored person would.
Unfortunately, the TAR seems to have that "Insta-death" gun thing going. I hope they've read some of these comparison threads. |
Ecshon Autorez
Nova Tech Marines Hephaestus Forge Alliance
30
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Posted - 2013.05.24 23:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
[Solution] All assault rifles including the tactical are blasters, which are suppose to be short range by comparison to other weapon types. Laser weapons are suppose to be long range. With this in mind, I think it would be a good idea to nerf the range of the tactical, and buff the range of the the scrambler. A scope with similar zoom as the tactical would be nice as well (though keep the current sight for the assault scrambler).A modest reduction in scrambler rifle heat build up would also be greatly helpful.
I got to the underlined part and just had to post this.
NO! NONONONONONONONO!
The only way I could see them improving the SR sight is by reducing the amount of gold/yellow tint. I don't wan't no increased zoom! |
Arx Ardashir
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2013.05.24 23:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
TARs can keep their range, but they should have to be using iron-based ammo to do so, meaning a lot less damage. The fact that there isn't the overheat mechanic (despite shooting plasma, which is heat given physical form almost) to balance out the RoF means that they shouldn't be doing similar damage to the SR at range. |
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Val'herik Dorn
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
599
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Posted - 2013.05.25 01:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
The scrambler is actually a pulse laser.
In eve every weapon system has a long range and short range equivalent.
Short Blasters Autocannons Pulse lasers Assault missiles (I think not a fan of missiles)
Long Rail guns Artillery Beam lasers Torps
The range difference between the two is pretty incredible...
Right now the tac ar and the scrambler (both short range) have basically the highest range in the game. Doesnt fit the lore...
In my opinion the tac should be removed and replaced by the caldari ar which will be a rail gun. Low rof but high alpha.
The charge scr should be made a beam laser while the assault variant is made a true pulse laser with its own skill set.
But who knows only time will tell what CCP has planned. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
204
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Posted - 2013.05.25 02:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Val'herik Dorn wrote:The scrambler is actually a pulse laser.
In eve every weapon system has a long range and short range equivalent.
Short Blasters Autocannons Pulse lasers Assault missiles (I think not a fan of missiles)
Long Rail guns Artillery Beam lasers Torps
The range difference between the two is pretty incredible...
Right now the tac ar and the scrambler (both short range) have basically the highest range in the game. Doesnt fit the lore...
In my opinion the tac should be removed and replaced by the caldari ar which will be a rail gun. Low rof but high alpha.
The charge scr should be made a beam laser while the assault variant is made a true pulse laser with its own skill set.
But who knows only time will tell what CCP has planned.
Torps are not long range. Take it from someone who flies a Stealth Bomber.
Short range missiles are the rockets. The long range missiles are cruise missiles. |
Arx Ardashir
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2013.05.25 03:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Missiles are a whole 'nother beast because each size has a different name.
Small: Rockets (S), Light Missiles (L) Medium: Heavy Assault Missiles (S), Heavy Missiles (L) Large: Torpedoes (S), Cruise Missiles (L)
But I don't think the Scrambler Rifle's ranged needs to be nerfed just because it's a pulse. The only "true" long range variant of the EVE weapons are the Sniper Rifle and Forge Gun, rail weapons, and they far outrange the Scrambler Rifle (as they should).
Beam weapons (except the poor, broken Laser Rifle), Missiles (possibly, since they're all just called "missiles" in game), and Artillery weapons aren't in DUST yet.
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Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
174
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Posted - 2013.05.25 03:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hey, you should look over my thread if you get the chance. We have similar ideas on things, especially the rate of fire on tactical rifles, which I also said should be limited to around 420 DPS.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=81570&find=unread |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
360
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Posted - 2013.05.25 05:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Pulse Lasers are MEDIUM range in Eve, not short range. There's about a 4 to 1 difference in range between pulse and plasma ranges. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
377
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Posted - 2013.05.26 06:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Arx Ardashir wrote:TARs can keep their range, but they should have to be using iron-based ammo to do so, meaning a lot less damage. The fact that there isn't the overheat mechanic (despite shooting plasma, which is heat given physical form almost) to balance out the RoF means that they shouldn't be doing similar damage to the SR at range.
Blasters aren't railguns though. That sort of thing should be saved for the Caldari Rifle. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3990
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Posted - 2013.05.26 16:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Holy crap, actually overheated an assault scrambler rifle, took a lot of shooting and reloading. It still almost never happens, which makes the Amarr assault bonus almost useless. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4025
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Posted - 2013.05.27 14:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=81967&find=unread This would also be nice |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1365
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Posted - 2013.05.27 15:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
I haven't used a scrambler rifle yet, but I want to. People never seem to factor in charge damage and headshot damage. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
383
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Posted - 2013.05.27 15:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
+1
I agree with this post.
But I disagree with the heat build-up reduction request.
That heat build-up is KEY in maintaining the weapon's balance. If you remove that, and give it the other buffs, you're asking for QQ troubles. Right now, no one complains about getting downed by a Scrambler. I've gotten quite good at managing the heat on both the standard and assault variants. SCR and SCAR users just need to adjust their management.
When the Heat meter says you can't keep attacking, then you simply need to pull back and cooldown. Don't move in for the assault unless you are 100% confident you can down your target without over heating.
Otherwise, the OP is spot on. |
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Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
383
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Posted - 2013.05.27 15:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Holy crap, actually overheated an assault scrambler rifle, took a lot of shooting and reloading. It still almost never happens, which makes the Amarr assault bonus almost useless.
Another good observation. The Assault variant fires 72 rounds. The heat doesn't bother you unless you actually try to volley all 72 rounds, which is just being greedy.
The heat really is just fine for the scramblers in general. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4028
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Posted - 2013.05.27 15:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I haven't used a scrambler rifle yet, but I want to. People never seem to factor in charge damage and headshot damage. There isn't a big headshot multiplier like the scrambler pistol, and I did factor in the charge. The time it takes to charge, a tac rifle user could do over 700 damage (over 2000 if using modded controller).
Jathniel wrote:+1
I agree with this post.
But I disagree with the heat build-up reduction request.
That heat build-up is KEY in maintaining the weapon's balance. If you remove that, and give it the other buffs, you're asking for QQ troubles. Right now, no one complains about getting downed by a Scrambler. I've gotten quite good at managing the heat on both the standard and assault variants. SCR and SCAR users just need to adjust their management.
When the Heat meter says you can't keep attacking, then you simply need to pull back and cooldown. Don't move in for the assault unless you are 100% confident you can down your target without overheating.
Otherwise, the OP is spot on. The fact that no one complained about a weapon being OP doesn't mean it its balanced since it could mean the weapon is just underpowered. Example: Nova knives before Uprising. The heat buildup reduction I am asking for is pretty small, I'm not asking to be able to empty out an entire magazine. A standard AR can deal 2040 damage without stopping, while a prototype scrambler can overheat before 1,200 (even lower for some). Sure players can pace their shots better to avoid overheat, but that seriously reduces the DPS which means the player is forced to either sacrifice their DPS to a level where they can't be competitive with ARs, or they have to sacrifice their ability to keep outputting damage which leave them defenseless; either sacrifice puts the player at a grave disadvantage, and what isn't sacrificed pales in comparison to the ARs'. |
PADDEHATPIGEN
BurgezzE.T.F
22
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Posted - 2013.05.27 16:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
AR users also have to spend almost a mill. Extra SP to get all AR skills to level 5. It's the ONLY weapon that has the sharpshooter skill. It's the ONLY weapon that has 5 sub skills.
ALL other weapons only have 4 sub skills and you save a mill. SP by training SR insted of AR but you want them to have the same stats.
Are AR users not supose to get a little bit extra for spending an extra mill. SP on there weapon ? |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
819
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Posted - 2013.05.27 17:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
PADDEHATPIGEN wrote:AR users also have to spend almost a mill. Extra SP to get all AR skills to level 5. It's the ONLY weapon that has the sharpshooter skill. It's the ONLY weapon that has 5 sub skills.
ALL other weapons only have 4 sub skills and you save a mill. SP by training SR insted of AR but you want them to have the same stats.
Are AR users not supose to get a little bit extra for spending an extra mill. SP on there weapon ?
It shouldn't have those skills. why should the AR get extra boosts to performance? |
Ecshon Autorez
Nova Tech Marines Hephaestus Forge Alliance
41
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Posted - 2013.05.27 17:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
PADDEHATPIGEN wrote:AR users also have to spend almost a mill. Extra SP to get all AR skills to level 5. It's the ONLY weapon that has the sharpshooter skill. It's the ONLY weapon that has 5 sub skills.
ALL other weapons only have 4 sub skills and you save a mill. SP by training SR insted of AR but you want them to have the same stats.
Are AR users not supose to get a little bit extra for spending an extra mill. SP on there weapon ? SMGs have those skills too. |
Meeko Fent
Mercenary incorperated
23
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Posted - 2013.05.27 20:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Scrambler Rifle- Longer Range then PR ( Plasma rifle, Im tired of calling a Race Specific weapon a Weapon Type), Less Range then LR. Lower Damage Then PR as it is a Long range weapon so it can Balance in Close, Greater damage then LR
There are mah suggestions for the 3 Rifles Range Postions. PR- Shredder at Close Range SCR-Mid Range Battle Rifle LR- Firefight Skirting Assist Hound
The Sniper I keep Out of this because the Sniper Rifle Is Mainly for Dealing with Stragglers running from Cover to Cover, Or Killing Enemies that are keeping your Buddies Pinned Down |
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CCP Remnant
C C P C C P Alliance
180
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Posted - 2013.05.28 02:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
We'll be making some adjustments to the rifle ranges in the near future. We're currently testing the Rail Rifle and Combat Rifle internally (the two missing archetypes). Within the assault rifle class the four weapon types will break down as follows:
Assault Rifle (Hybrid - Plasma) - short range Combat Rifle (Projectile - Autocannon) - short-mid range Scrambler Rifle (Laser - Pulse) - mid range Rail Rifle (Hybrid - Railgun) - long range
Keep in mind though that long range for an assault rifle is not equivalent to long range for a sniper rifle, so while they will adhere to existing category definitions don't expect massive differences in the distances between these weapons A lot of the original assault rifle variants (Breach, Burst, Tactical) were created to fill the gaps these newer weapons will fill and so mightGÇÖve felt out of place (not to mention we just plain made mistakes with some of them). The scrambler rifleGÇÖs optimal range will be increased and weGÇÖll be releasing an iteration of the Tactical Assault Rifle with a smaller clip and much wider hip-fire spread making it less effective in CQC. If that change alone does not prove enough we will walk the damage of the TAR down slowly. No big, sweeping changes this time. |
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Severance Pay
Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy
255
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Posted - 2013.05.28 02:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Remnant wrote:We'll be making some adjustments to the rifle ranges in the near future. We're currently testing the Rail Rifle and Combat Rifle internally (the two missing archetypes). Within the assault rifle class the four weapon types will break down as follows:
Assault Rifle (Hybrid - Plasma) - short range Combat Rifle (Projectile - Autocannon) - short-mid range Scrambler Rifle (Laser - Pulse) - mid range Rail Rifle (Hybrid - Railgun) - long range
Keep in mind though that long range for an assault rifle is not equivalent to long range for a sniper rifle, so while they will adhere to existing category definitions don't expect massive differences in the distances between these weapons A lot of the original assault rifle variants (Breach, Burst, Tactical) were created to fill the gaps these newer weapons will fill and so mightGÇÖve felt out of place (not to mention we just plain made mistakes with some of them). The scrambler rifleGÇÖs optimal range will be increased and weGÇÖll be releasing an iteration of the Tactical Assault Rifle with a smaller clip and much wider hip-fire spread making it less effective in CQC. If that change alone does not prove enough we will walk the damage of the TAR down slowly. No big, sweeping changes this time. Can we test them, and tell you what we think? Can I have an account to test server and give you honest feedback? |
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CCP Remnant
C C P C C P Alliance
180
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Posted - 2013.05.28 03:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Severance Pay wrote: Can we test them, and tell you what we think? Can I have an account to test server and give you honest feedback?
I wish you all could. We currently don't have A SiSi like server for DUST. Wish we did. Would love the feedback earlier. |
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4034
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Posted - 2013.05.28 03:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Remnant wrote:Severance Pay wrote: Can we test them, and tell you what we think? Can I have an account to test server and give you honest feedback?
I wish you all could. We currently don't have A SiSi like server for DUST. Wish we did. Would love the feedback earlier. You could create a separate Dust client for testing and let a few of us in on select days. MAG did that like a year after its released to let some players test out stuff that was coming in the MAG 2.0 patch. |
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