It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. Congratulations, you and your buddies hijacked someone else's match and teamkilled them till they lost. The only difference between griefing in dust and griefing in other games is that in dust people will pay you for it.

But that's not the point of this topic. The question I pose to you: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame, or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new?

Protip: If you sabotage do it right. Not like Beta...ehem...failmax :]

Oh look, another OMG SPIES thread.

It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. Congratulations, you and your buddies hijacked someone else's match and teamkilled them till they lost. The only difference between griefing in dust and griefing in other games is that in dust people will pay you for it.

But that's not the point of this topic. The question I pose to you: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame, or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new?

Meta gaming in New Eden generally requires an intricate knowledge of most dramas going on at any one moment, so it will always exclude new players.
Developing trusted allies is still meta gaming IMO. If you sell your services as a merc, you can establish a good rep with the corps, and managing that rep when you inevitably get hired against previous employers could be quite a challenge. Especially having seen the tantrums thrown in the war room by certain corps.

It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. Congratulations, you and your buddies hijacked someone else's match and teamkilled them till they lost. The only difference between griefing in dust and griefing in other games is that in dust people will pay you for it.

But that's not the point of this topic. The question I pose to you: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame, or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new?

I have to agree. Meta gaming exists in almost every game. Simply being here on the forums, getting info on bug/glitches/fits ect is meta gaming.

The EvE community however, seems to feel griefing is meta gaming, and CCP back them. Which is total BS imho. I think this is an issue which will continue to plague CCPs games.

I will not defend saboteurs or griefers however, the enemy of my enemy...

I will not defend saboteurs or griefers however, the enemy of my enemy...

Oh look, another OMG SPIES thread.

I have to agree. Meta gaming exists in almost every game. Simply being here on the forums, getting info on bug/glitches/fits ect is meta gaming.

The EvE community however, seems to feel griefing is meta gaming, and CCP back them. Which is total BS imho. I think this is an issue which will continue to plague CCPs games.

I will not defend saboteurs or griefers however, the enemy of my enemy...

CCP doesn-¦t endorse griefing. They have sandobx games that have emergent gameplay.

That being said, if you thing that you-¦re being harassed or you can-¦t play the game because of someone (he bumps you out of your minning position and it doesn-¦t matter how many systems you jump, he follows you and you can-¦t play for example), you-¦re welcome to file a petition. Harass and griefing is no good.

What people call griefing however, is another story.

Soon we-¦ll have people calling "Oh, but he killed me 20 times with his protosuit, while i only have STD" griefing.

Failmax needs grief counseling after their failed atempt at griefing.

Getting griefed while they grief? GRIEFCEPTION

Wars aren't won by boots on the ground. Wars are won via logistics, morale, and intel.

Sorry that you are so resistant to such a basic strategy lesson.

The mentality behind using tactics unintended by CCP (mechanical oversights) as "legitimate tactics" is troubling.

When Immobile Infantry handled the finding of infinite Precision Strikes primarily inhouse and out of actual matches, instead of abusing it in game for their benefit, I ultimately thought that was very cool and "professional" of them. They tested it, duplicated it, and reported it, all off the grid so no one was abusing it.

Yet, CCPs OWN ELECT happily and freely use these loopholes and tag them as "legitimate tactics".

Of course you can sit there and say "oh we're trying to fix it and talk to CCP about it" but the fact that it's readily and casually used in the gaming environment....yea, it just doesn't sit right with me.

OB to be used, needs every X ammount of WP. That-¦s the mechanic.

If i find out that i can go X, -50, X, -50, that-¦s a bug. If people use the bug for personal gain, that-¦s an exploit.

**

I-¦m a squad leader, therefore, i invite people to squads. That-¦s the mechanic.

I find out that i can invite hostiles to a battle. That-¦s NOT an exploit.

If the difference between each case is not clear, it-¦s going to be very complicated to talk about emergent gameplay, or a game where "shoot shoot, kill kill, i killed most therefore i win" is not the plan.

Yet the simple lack of a mechanic as simple as roles or being able to remove people from combat has caused corporations to have to splinter off and go through silly loopholes and be hyper paranoid of every single applicant, because they have no control over what happens if someone goes rogue, because battle commanders forget how to cut clones off from the clone vat.

The second you're on the field, any clone vat will do. Why we don't just spawn on our enemies CRUs is beyond me

You would think that a member of CPM, CCPs own elected official, would take that information straight to CCP and try to hammer out an option BEFORE it came to light.

Emergent gameplay is one thing. That's cool and important. Finding a loophole and abusing it for your own gain at the expense of others is childish and bad form for a community representative.

The fact that this wasn't addressed before it came to light is the real issue at hand.

4 - How is this a loophole, or an abuse?

It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. Congratulations, you and your buddies hijacked someone else's match and teamkilled them till they lost. The only difference between griefing in dust and griefing in other games is that in dust people will pay you for it.

But that's not the point of this topic. The question I pose to you: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame, or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new?

If griefing as a meta game is a problem for CCP, how do you explain the success of Eve?

Well my understanding of the "mechanic" in question is fuzzy at best, I haven't had any experience with it first hand.

From what I hear, a squad leader or "spy" manages to hop into a PC battle alone by spamming X early on to ensure they get in. Then, they pull in a group of hostiles.

The battle commander (which doesn't even exist yet) can't cut off these clones access to his clone vats. The second they hit that war barge, they're in for the duration.

This doesn't require "infiltration" and does not break "trust" because it's so simple, has devastating results (unless you're BetaMax ), and is rather rewarding for the griefer in both time wasted and tears harvested.

It's childish, and not making this a top priority is dangerous for the metagame. This is the type of thing that CPM should be working to fix, that break further.

If griefing as a meta game is a problem for CCP, how do you explain the success of Eve?

Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame?

or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new?

It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing.

Yes.

I've been told that I'm one of the most overtly involved in the DUST metagame (it's not a particularly deep metagame at the moment, so it's hard to become submerged unless you're very small) so I guess it's my job to contribute to this thread.

Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game while transcending the standard constraints that the game seems to offer you. Thus, the New Eden metagame is simply the use of tools other than those explicitly offered by CCP, or the creative misuse of the available tools.

In the game, your means of determining your enemy's location is a code-based scanning system, with rules for when it can ping the opponent, which you can augment with specific ingame items. Metagaming is realising that the players on the enemy team also know the opponent's position and exploiting this knowledge by means such as asking them or persuading them to disclose the information.

If you don't want to lie, steal, cheat or backstab you are still welcome to become involved in the metagame. Superficially, this is how I am involved. If you have any skills with network mapping (figuring out relationships between various players, corps, alliances), you can use such skills defensively to protect the corporation whose interests you are looking after.

If your investigative skills are strong, you can look into offers which seem too good to be true and categorically display them as the scams they are. You can trace connections between alternate accounts and protect people from giving their trust to a wolf in sheep's clothing.

There are as many "good guy" counters as there are "bad guy" exploits of the metagame, and these are all open to you.

Once the market opens, using metagame knowledge to operate in this space is another option, as well as doing corporate PR, diplomacy, mediation between warring parties, etc.

What do you want to do in New Eden?

This is a separate issue. You're going to earn trust from ANYONE you interact with. The best way to be who you are purporting to be in this thread, a generally honest person.

Help me understand the metagame

It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. Congratulations, you and your buddies hijacked someone else's match and teamkilled them till they lost. The only difference between griefing in dust and griefing in other games is that in dust people will pay you for it.

But that's not the point of this topic. The question I pose to you: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame, or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new?

Why all the hate? We are beta testing the AWOXING mechanic for the community and are hoping to iron out any bugs that we find. Our aim it to give Dust 514 players the best team killing experience out there.

Known bugs/potential exploits:
- Loading screen bug can affect the infiltrators ability to do their job
- An infiltrator can hack an installation like a CRU/supply depot/turret and have a friendly on the other team hack it back, therefore farming WP for an OB.
- Infitrator vehicles run on tears, not enough tears, no fuel. (potential feature)

What is the metagame? It comes down to this:

The very best of us, the true generals and leaders, may very well be able to dominate Planetary Conquest with a bare minimum of fighting.

The opposite of the metagame is the meatgame.

They're both neccesary, but one is ultimately lose and the other is ultimately win.

It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. Congratulations, you and your buddies hijacked someone else's match and teamkilled them till they lost. The only difference between griefing in dust and griefing in other games is that in dust people will pay you for it.

But that's not the point of this topic. The question I pose to you: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame, or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new?

What is the metagame? It comes down to this:

The very best of us, the true generals and leaders, may very well be able to dominate Planetary Conquest with a bare minimum of fighting.

The opposite of the metagame is the meatgame.

They're both neccesary, but one is ultimately lose and the other is ultimately win.

Are people really that desperate to infiltrate that they're using alternate PSN accounts?

Otherwise, you can just check the PSN ID for known griefers. Just make a list of them somewhere, share them with others, and keep it up to date.

It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. Congratulations, you and your buddies hijacked someone else's match and teamkilled them till they lost. The only difference between griefing in dust and griefing in other games is that in dust people will pay you for it.

But that's not the point of this topic. The question I pose to you: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame, or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new?

You do realise that an alternate PSN takes very little effort, right?

No, I've never been inclined to make another one, nor do I see enough value in it to do it just to screw over other corps in one game.

It takes about five minutes and lets your alts gain passive SP. Not quite a move of desperation.

If this is the case, then CCP needs to act on it. Character recycling in Eve is against the rules/EULA/whatever, I believe. I don't see why it shouldn't be in Dust, also.