DUST Search - Help me understand the metagame

Mithridates VI wrote:

Tuna the Fish wrote:

Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame?

Yes.

I've been told that I'm one of the most overtly involved in the DUST metagame (it's not a particularly deep metagame at the moment, so it's hard to become submerged unless you're very small) so I guess it's my job to contribute to this thread.

Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game while transcending the standard constraints that the game seems to offer you. Thus, the New Eden metagame is simply the use of tools other than those explicitly offered by CCP, or the creative misuse of the available tools.

In the game, your means of determining your enemy's location is a code-based scanning system, with rules for when it can ping the opponent, which you can augment with specific ingame items. Metagaming is realising that the players on the enemy team also know the opponent's position and exploiting this knowledge by means such as asking them or persuading them to disclose the information.

If you don't want to lie, steal, cheat or backstab you are still welcome to become involved in the metagame. Superficially, this is how I am involved. If you have any skills with network mapping (figuring out relationships between various players, corps, alliances), you can use such skills defensively to protect the corporation whose interests you are looking after.

If your investigative skills are strong, you can look into offers which seem too good to be true and categorically display them as the scams they are. You can trace connections between alternate accounts and protect people from giving their trust to a wolf in sheep's clothing.

There are as many "good guy" counters as there are "bad guy" exploits of the metagame, and these are all open to you.

Once the market opens, using metagame knowledge to operate in this space is another option, as well as doing corporate PR, diplomacy, mediation between warring parties, etc.

What do you want to do in New Eden?

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DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3129	Posted - 2013.05.20 21:05:00 - [31] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: 4 - How is this a loophole, or an abuse? Well my understanding of the "mechanic" in question is fuzzy at best, I haven't had any experience with it first hand. From what I hear, a squad leader or "spy" manages to hop into a PC battle alone by spamming X early on to ensure they get in. Then, they pull in a group of hostiles. The battle commander (which doesn't even exist yet) can't cut off these clones access to his clone vats. The second they hit that war barge, they're in for the duration. This doesn't require "infiltration" and does not break "trust" because it's so simple, has devastating results (unless you're BetaMax ), and is rather rewarding for the griefer in both time wasted and tears harvested. It's childish, and not making this a top priority is dangerous for the metagame. This is the type of thing that CPM should be working to fix, that break further.
Ender Storm Goonfeet 50	Posted - 2013.05.20 21:07:00 - [32] - Quote Tuna the Fish wrote: It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. Congratulations, you and your buddies hijacked someone else's match and teamkilled them till they lost. The only difference between griefing in dust and griefing in other games is that in dust people will pay you for it. But that's not the point of this topic. The question I pose to you: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame, or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new? Yes theres metagame that dosent involve activities that might be considered unfair for the faint of heart. An alliance leader can engage in treaties, a player can act as a diplomat, you can forge alliances and manipulate the geopolitics of the universe.
Setaceous Prime Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.05.20 21:11:00 - [33] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Tony Calif wrote: I have to agree. Meta gaming exists in almost every game. Simply being here on the forums, getting info on bug/glitches/fits ect is meta gaming. The EvE community however, seems to feel griefing is meta gaming, and CCP back them. Which is total BS imho. I think this is an issue which will continue to plague CCPs games. I will not defend saboteurs or griefers however, the enemy of my enemy... If griefing as a meta game is a problem for CCP, how do you explain the success of Eve? AFK mining and a steady turnover of newbies.
Natu Nobilis BetaMax Beta CRONOS. 298	Posted - 2013.05.20 21:41:00 - [34] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Natu Nobilis wrote: 4 - How is this a loophole, or an abuse? Well my understanding of the "mechanic" in question is fuzzy at best, I haven't had any experience with it first hand. From what I hear, a squad leader or "spy" manages to hop into a PC battle alone by spamming X early on to ensure they get in. Then, they pull in a group of hostiles. The battle commander (which doesn't even exist yet) can't cut off these clones access to his clone vats. The second they hit that war barge, they're in for the duration. This doesn't require "infiltration" and does not break "trust" because it's so simple, has devastating results (unless you're BetaMax ), and is rather rewarding for the griefer in both time wasted and tears harvested. It's childish, and not making this a top priority is dangerous for the metagame. This is the type of thing that CPM should be working to fix, that break further. I agree that the system can be improved, no question about it. I-¦ve made a topic on the subject. Today in EVE, you can invite anyone to your squad, and sometimes you invite the enemy, so he can join you, and you warp to him for the kill. If recruiters put everyone that say X in a squad, they should be punished for their lack of security, but calling it a bad mechanic? What would be a "good" mechanic? Invites restricted to corp members? (That-¦s more harm than good and kills Merc work) I agree with the ingame restrictions, check the topic.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 574	Posted - 2013.05.20 21:57:00 - [35] - Quote At the end of the day, metagame is, simply put, politics. For example, my corp (corp A) wants to attack corp B's districts. However, they're much larger than us, so even mounting multiple attacks on multiple districts at the same time isn't going to help us. So, we talk to corp C about helping us attack corp B. Luckily, corp B has 20 districts, and we between enough have enough to attack all 20. Effectively, we're in a temporary, unofficial alliance. So we attack all 20 districts at the same time every day for 3-4 days to wear their clones down. They will lose at least a few districts if your players are good enough. That's a part of the metagame. Another wholly legal part is the griefing part. The most exciting and newsworthy part, really. Untold damage just for a few clicks of a button? Awesome.
Ignatius Crumwald IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 478	Posted - 2013.05.20 22:12:00 - [36] - Quote Don't listen to any of these people. The key to understanding The Meta Game is as follows: First, time travel to 1982. Ok, now drive out to a rest stop anywhere on the US interstate. Next, walk out toward the woods until you hear rustling, then pull down your pants, bend over, and open your mouth wide as can be. Enjoy. TA-DA!!! META GAME!!!
Marston VC SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 254	Posted - 2013.05.20 23:02:00 - [37] - Quote its just drama between alliance and corp leaders, nothing more.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 452	Posted - 2013.05.20 23:37:00 - [38] - Quote What betamax and other corps did is no more meta-game than somebody hacking the server and booting the entire enemy team from a match. And as a result of what they did, now every corp out there is going to give new members the heave-ho or stick them in some babysitting corp, which isn't exactly helping the longevity of this game by getting more people to play. Think about it this way, remember when the Warriors exploited the repair tool to get tons and tons of WP several builds ago? Remember the consequence of that? Yup, CCP removed the ability to gain points from repairing. Which ended up hurting the people who actually used it for legit purposes (which was 99% of players). This is a case of one ruining it for the rest in the name of meta-gaming and HTFU, when in actuality it is nothing more than an exploit of the game mechanics (or lack of game mechanics such as being able to kick players from PC matches). Congrats, you guys found an exploit that has massively impacted the game, but don't sit there and try to say it is simply a part of the meta-game.
Onesimus Tarsus Planetary Response Organization 41	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:00:00 - [39] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Tony Calif wrote: I have to agree. Meta gaming exists in almost every game. Simply being here on the forums, getting info on bug/glitches/fits ect is meta gaming. The EvE community however, seems to feel griefing is meta gaming, and CCP back them. Which is total BS imho. I think this is an issue which will continue to plague CCPs games. I will not defend saboteurs or griefers however, the enemy of my enemy... If griefing as a meta game is a problem for CCP, how do you explain the success of Eve? The same way I'd explain the "success" of online jerk-ness in general: anonymity plus power equals jerkfest. CCP are the ultimate jerks because they encourage jerkish behavior to hopefully keep lil' wannabe jerks interested enough to spend money to pretend to be jerks in armored wetsuits.
Panther Alpha WarRavens 254	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:14:00 - [40] - Quote Metagaming is Real Life Role Play, inside a Role Play Game ... In other words... Mixing Reality and Fiction inside an imaginary world ... Simple Explanation ; You take the role of a fictional "character ", to achieve an objective, that is not directly connected to the game you playing.. E.g; Make A corporation lost ISK, by pretending that you are their " friend " in a personal level. ( Outside the game Environment ) Real Explanation: Is "pretending" that you are someone else.

Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 24	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:48:00 - [41] - Quote What it appears to be most often used for around here is to describe lying, manipulating, and operating under false pretenses in order to screw over a group of people who trusted you. Which really just encompasses the espionage and sabotage parts of meta gaming. A more complete definition would be more along the lines of any activities outside the mechanics of a game that improve upon or alter the gaming within those mechanics. At least that's my understanding of it. In this case the mechanics would be the actual battles, markets, corporation and alliance management, PC related functions, and character development. Meta would encompass the aforementioned espionage and sabotage, as well as inter-alliance politics, inter-corporation politics, personnel politics, studying common strategies and their counters, ****-talking if there's a goal it might help accomplish, whining for nerfs, arguing for buffs, researching common and effective skill builds, corporate and alliance advertising as a way to accomplish goals, following trends and happenings within the game in order to anticipate and capitalize on future events, etc etc... While that's probably a broader definition than most would use, it's a wide ranging term and as you can see, hardly limited to one activity.
The Loathing The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 77	Posted - 2013.05.21 02:33:00 - [42] - Quote Meta game is what separates Dust from other shooters. The opportunity for infiltration is an awesome subgame. However, the current system is not acceptable due to the allowance given to ACTUAL griefers. Griefers are not people working for or being paid by other Corps to undermine an organisation. These are the spais. Griefers are notorious immature gamers who ruin a battle for the lulz. An anonymous power trip with no gain other than their backwards sense of self satisfaction. The current system allows these people to just create headaches with absolutely no consequences. A spai infiltrates a Corp in Eve by being VERY careful. They use subtle sabotage until the time is ripe for their move. They actually get my respect at certain levels, although I cannot like a rat ever. But griefers are just a waste of Dust space, and any system that makes their pathetic fetish easier needs to be fixed.
Mithridates VI IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 1542	Posted - 2013.05.21 02:35:00 - [43] - Quote Tuna the Fish wrote: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame? Yes. I've been told that I'm one of the most overtly involved in the DUST metagame (it's not a particularly deep metagame at the moment, so it's hard to become submerged unless you're very small) so I guess it's my job to contribute to this thread. Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game while transcending the standard constraints that the game seems to offer you. Thus, the New Eden metagame is simply the use of tools other than those explicitly offered by CCP, or the creative misuse of the available tools. In the game, your means of determining your enemy's location is a code-based scanning system, with rules for when it can ping the opponent, which you can augment with specific ingame items. Metagaming is realising that the players on the enemy team also know the opponent's position and exploiting this knowledge by means such as asking them or persuading them to disclose the information. If you don't want to lie, steal, cheat or backstab you are still welcome to become involved in the metagame. Superficially, this is how I am involved. If you have any skills with network mapping (figuring out relationships between various players, corps, alliances), you can use such skills defensively to protect the corporation whose interests you are looking after. If your investigative skills are strong, you can look into offers which seem too good to be true and categorically display them as the scams they are. You can trace connections between alternate accounts and protect people from giving their trust to a wolf in sheep's clothing. There are as many "good guy" counters as there are "bad guy" exploits of the metagame, and these are all open to you. Once the market opens, using metagame knowledge to operate in this space is another option, as well as doing corporate PR, diplomacy, mediation between warring parties, etc. What do you want to do in New Eden? Tuna the Fish wrote: or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new? This is a separate issue. You're going to earn trust from ANYONE you interact with. The best way to be who you are purporting to be in this thread, a generally honest person.
Rusty Shallows Black Jackals 78	Posted - 2013.05.21 02:42:00 - [44] - Quote Tuna the Fish wrote: It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. I almost said, "welcome to New Eden" That aside you already answered the thread topic with your first sentence. There is no enlightenment here. Just one big sewer. Which isn't so bad if that falls into your definition of fun. I play for that and the cool scifi stuff. The optimist inside me says it will grow into something more interesting with time.
Tuna the Fish Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 3	Posted - 2013.05.21 03:50:00 - [45] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: Tuna the Fish wrote: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame? Yes. I've been told that I'm one of the most overtly involved in the DUST metagame (it's not a particularly deep metagame at the moment, so it's hard to become submerged unless you're very small) so I guess it's my job to contribute to this thread. Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game while transcending the standard constraints that the game seems to offer you. Thus, the New Eden metagame is simply the use of tools other than those explicitly offered by CCP, or the creative misuse of the available tools. In the game, your means of determining your enemy's location is a code-based scanning system, with rules for when it can ping the opponent, which you can augment with specific ingame items. Metagaming is realising that the players on the enemy team also know the opponent's position and exploiting this knowledge by means such as asking them or persuading them to disclose the information. If you don't want to lie, steal, cheat or backstab you are still welcome to become involved in the metagame. Superficially, this is how I am involved. If you have any skills with network mapping (figuring out relationships between various players, corps, alliances), you can use such skills defensively to protect the corporation whose interests you are looking after. If your investigative skills are strong, you can look into offers which seem too good to be true and categorically display them as the scams they are. You can trace connections between alternate accounts and protect people from giving their trust to a wolf in sheep's clothing. There are as many "good guy" counters as there are "bad guy" exploits of the metagame, and these are all open to you. Once the market opens, using metagame knowledge to operate in this space is another option, as well as doing corporate PR, diplomacy, mediation between warring parties, etc. What do you want to do in New Eden? This is incredibly helpful. Thank you, and thanks to everyone else who added to the conversation. Mithridates VI wrote: Tuna the Fish wrote: or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new? This is a separate issue. You're going to earn trust from ANYONE you interact with. The best way to be who you are purporting to be in this thread, a generally honest person. Or maybe I just want everyone to think I'm an honest person (am I doing it right? ).
Kel Ronson Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2013.05.21 07:20:00 - [46] - Quote Morality in New Eden. WTF is this Veggie Tails?
Callidus Vanus BetaMax. CRONOS. 55	Posted - 2013.05.21 07:32:00 - [47] - Quote Why all the hate? We are beta testing the AWOXING mechanic for the community and are hoping to iron out any bugs that we find. Our aim it to give Dust 514 players the best team killing experience out there. Known bugs/potential exploits: - Loading screen bug can affect the infiltrators ability to do their job - An infiltrator can hack an installation like a CRU/supply depot/turret and have a friendly on the other team hack it back, therefore farming WP for an OB. - Infitrator vehicles run on tears, not enough tears, no fuel. (potential feature)
hooc order Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement 110	Posted - 2013.05.21 07:52:00 - [48] - Quote Quote: Help me understand the metagame Brain dead EvE player circle jerk who are too busy whacking it to grasp that FPS>meta
Nariec Carbon 7 17	Posted - 2013.05.21 07:56:00 - [49] - Quote Tuna the Fish wrote: It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. Congratulations, you and your buddies hijacked someone else's match and teamkilled them till they lost. The only difference between griefing in dust and griefing in other games is that in dust people will pay you for it. But that's not the point of this topic. The question I pose to you: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame, or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new? Play the game with your friends, have fun, you don't have to play PC to enjoy it, I play with my bestfriend, we always have a blast flying in a dropship killing tanks and reddots. Even if we lose and get redlined, we call in free LAVs and going full GTA on them.
Panther Alpha WarRavens 254	Posted - 2013.05.21 08:19:00 - [50] - Quote Callidus Vanus wrote: Why all the hate? We are beta testing the AWOXING mechanic for the community and are hoping to iron out any bugs that we find. Our aim it to give Dust 514 players the best team killing experience out there. Known bugs/potential exploits: - Loading screen bug can affect the infiltrators ability to do their job - An infiltrator can hack an installation like a CRU/supply depot/turret and have a friendly on the other team hack it back, therefore farming WP for an OB. - Infitrator vehicles run on tears, not enough tears, no fuel. (potential feature) Testing metagaming ? How can you possible "Test" how stupid people are ? and how is that related to a First Person Shooter MMO ? Priorities CCP !!

Vrain Matari ZionTCD Unclaimed. 531	Posted - 2013.05.21 12:39:00 - [51] - Quote What is the metagame? It comes down to this: The very best of us, the true generals and leaders, may very well be able to dominate Planetary Conquest with a bare minimum of fighting. The opposite of the metagame is the meatgame. They're both neccesary, but one is ultimately lose and the other is ultimately win.
hooc order Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement 112	Posted - 2013.05.21 17:48:00 - [52] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: What is the metagame? It comes down to this: The very best of us, the true generals and leaders, may very well be able to dominate Planetary Conquest with a bare minimum of fighting. The opposite of the metagame is the meatgame. They're both neccesary, but one is ultimately lose and the other is ultimately win. Yeah sure cuz a bunch of spread sheet PvEers are going to beat people who PvP in FPS every day. makes sense. Yeah sure cuz a bunch of farmville in space faeries can stop 16 FPS playing teenagers from breaking their stuff. Makes sense. Yeah sure cuz CCP is going to design their MMOFPS End Game around what 3 players in betamax want to the detriment of their entire player base. Makes sense. "Metabation, might not make you blind but it will make you stupid."
Stupid Drunk1 Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 97	Posted - 2013.05.21 20:03:00 - [53] - Quote Tuna the Fish wrote: It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. Congratulations, you and your buddies hijacked someone else's match and teamkilled them till they lost. The only difference between griefing in dust and griefing in other games is that in dust people will pay you for it. But that's not the point of this topic. The question I pose to you: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame, or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new? Ill try to shine this in a different light for you. First, your impression of the metagame are accurate, but you left out a key component. Nextly, their cannot be darkness without light, evil without good, ying/yang, you must rise above the fray, create a collective that opposes lying/cheating. See by eliminating this perceived evil, light cannot shine as bright. In EvE not all groups create the same reputations for themselves the same. Some created glorified communist utopian everyone is equal, and people that play in those groups have fun like in no other game when they eliminate a fascist cooperation. If everyone played like you honorable, and everyone was 100 the same life would be boring
Blapathon Tanker Grief University 23	Posted - 2013.05.22 01:13:00 - [54] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: What is the metagame? It comes down to this: The very best of us, the true generals and leaders, may very well be able to dominate Planetary Conquest with a bare minimum of fighting. The opposite of the metagame is the meatgame. They're both neccesary, but one is ultimately lose and the other is ultimately win. the last metagame you clowns tried to play ended with your candidate for CSM being shamed off the list. Is your metagame perhaps "We require our people to be good guys while not caring if they prove us hypocrites?" In other news, grief University will begin open, anonymous recruiting of alts to help you, our consumers have access to our services with full deniability. Our only requirement will be that you actively contribute to discerning which mechanics can be used to enter into ruining peoples' Planetary conquest for profit and fun. Mostly fun.
Selinate deux DUST University Ivy League 69	Posted - 2013.05.22 01:15:00 - [55] - Quote Are people really that desperate to infiltrate that they're using alternate PSN accounts? Otherwise, you can just check the PSN ID for known griefers. Just make a list of them somewhere, share them with others, and keep it up to date.
Mithridates VI IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 1561	Posted - 2013.05.22 01:20:00 - [56] - Quote Selinate deux wrote: Are people really that desperate to infiltrate that they're using alternate PSN accounts? Otherwise, you can just check the PSN ID for known griefers. Just make a list of them somewhere, share them with others, and keep it up to date. You do realise that an alternate PSN takes very little effort, right?
Vallud Eadesso Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 191	Posted - 2013.05.22 01:25:00 - [57] - Quote Tuna the Fish wrote: It seems to me that "playing the metagame" is just glorified/encouraged griefing. Congratulations, you and your buddies hijacked someone else's match and teamkilled them till they lost. The only difference between griefing in dust and griefing in other games is that in dust people will pay you for it. But that's not the point of this topic. The question I pose to you: Is there any way to fully enjoy the metagame without griefing? If I don't care to lie, steal, cheat. or backstab, can I still enjoy the metagame, or is all I can look forward to being mistrusted by any corporation I join simply because I'm new? People throw the term "Metagaming" around without actually understanding what it means. Metagaming is the act of 'gaming the game' and it was originally a military and political term. An example of gaming the game would be, for example, using low cost fits effectively to the point of economic victory, or forcing economic returns to you and your pocket even through sustained loss (See: Goonswarm in EVE with Hulkageddon.) This would be done by~ lets say, when Null Wars are added, I force an invasion of my space where I control the market. I add a huge markup to the value of all items in my region and then choke the attackers supply lines. I then make sure they get JUST enough victories to hang around and profit hugely from their continues war 'against' me and my forced. Until i've made enough to fun my own war effort and force them out. Goonswarm have been doing this for years. This is meta gaming. Metagaming could also describe the act of crazy dropsuit fits like the good old heavy-sniper build that showed up a while ago. Essentially, Metagaming is using rules outside of the game to effect or bend, but never break, the rules inside the game. What betamax and the rest did is NOT metagaming, it is 'exploiting' a loophole in the rules. A loophole that will likely be closed or addressed. So yeah. That was a bit of a ramble.
Selinate deux DUST University Ivy League 69	Posted - 2013.05.22 01:26:00 - [58] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: Selinate deux wrote: Are people really that desperate to infiltrate that they're using alternate PSN accounts? Otherwise, you can just check the PSN ID for known griefers. Just make a list of them somewhere, share them with others, and keep it up to date. You do realise that an alternate PSN takes very little effort, right? No, I've never been inclined to make another one, nor do I see enough value in it to do it just to screw over other corps in one game.
Mithridates VI IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 1561	Posted - 2013.05.22 01:28:00 - [59] - Quote Selinate deux wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Selinate deux wrote: Are people really that desperate to infiltrate that they're using alternate PSN accounts? Otherwise, you can just check the PSN ID for known griefers. Just make a list of them somewhere, share them with others, and keep it up to date. You do realise that an alternate PSN takes very little effort, right? No, I've never been inclined to make another one, nor do I see enough value in it to do it just to screw over other corps in one game. It takes about five minutes and lets your alts gain passive SP. Not quite a move of desperation.
Selinate deux DUST University Ivy League 69	Posted - 2013.05.22 01:32:00 - [60] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: Selinate deux wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: Selinate deux wrote: Are people really that desperate to infiltrate that they're using alternate PSN accounts? Otherwise, you can just check the PSN ID for known griefers. Just make a list of them somewhere, share them with others, and keep it up to date. You do realise that an alternate PSN takes very little effort, right? No, I've never been inclined to make another one, nor do I see enough value in it to do it just to screw over other corps in one game. It takes about five minutes and lets your alts gain passive SP. Not quite a move of desperation. If this is the case, then CCP needs to act on it. Character recycling in Eve is against the rules/EULA/whatever, I believe. I don't see why it shouldn't be in Dust, also.



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