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Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
141
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL;DR ----- Inventory liquidation from Uprising has injected too much money into the economy, and running in all proto gear has become too easy; there is no longer the financial penalty that controlled proto-usage.
Following the last character wipe in January (just before the end of closed beta), everyone started back at 500,000 SP, and had next to no money. Everyone started off on a level playing field.
Some people were generalists, having multiple suits and putting skills into multiple weapons.
Some people rushed into proto-suits, but were stuck using the milita gear for fittings due to a lack of skillpoints.
But the MONEY was still a major deciding factor in who ran with what gear. People would run pub matches in cheap gear in order to build up a war chest, then bust out their shiny proto gear for corp matches. For many, it was just too expensive to roll in proto all the time, because if you lost 2 proto-fit suits per match, you were losing more than that the match paid... and that was something that people couldn't sustain for a long period of time.
Then... then came the respec and inventory liquidation of Uprising. My wallet.... it jumped from around 20-25 million, all the way up to ~150million.... simply because all of the salvage I had accrued since January was liquidated at current market rates.
Christ.... I never spec'ed into vehicles, but I had loads of Tanks, LAVs and Dropships in my inventory thanks to salvage. And, all at once and all of a sudden.... it is as if EVERYTHING sold... all at once.
This was a HUGE mistake, because it made running "all proto, all the time" a viable option. Before, skills were a pre-requisite to getting into proto gear (as it is right now), with ISK cost limiting its frequent use. But now, with the skill respec and the inventory liquidation, people were able to go right to Proto, and now money is no longer a barrier.
This needs to be addressed, and I have the following suggestions.
1 - CCP needs to drastically increase the NPC cost of proto gear. I'm talking double or triple the cost of suits, weapons and fittings.
2 - CCP needs to open the player-to-player market trading, so that if player X gets a proto suit as salvage, they can resell that salvage at a price below the ceiling that CCP has set with the NPC orders... the market will determine the price.
3 - CCP needs to consider increasing the proto-gear drop rates in salvage, shifting supply from NPC markets to the community.
4 - Lastly, CCP should, perhaps, make proto gear a BPO in the EVE universe... allowing pilots to build the gear and then resell at market rates... beginning the linking of EVE and Dust economies.
Now, i realize that people will say that Dust players will have EVE alts subsidize them my making cheap gear. However, if the gear can only be sold through the market and not through contracts, and if it is subject to the market PVP that EVE players all know and love... and if the mineral/component requirement is such that there is a price floor on the gear... I think you will see a player-supported market that is free from EVE currency injection and devaluation/inflation.
Right now... the second someone comes out of the academy and starts running pub matches... they'll be pitting their 1-2 million SP against full proto squads... and they'll get frustrated, and they'll leave... and Dust NEEDS as many players as possible to remain healthy.
So... that was long winded, I'll grant you.... but I'm interested in your thoughts and feedback.
Cheers, Nightbird
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4254
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Poor players will blow though all that isk quickly enough. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic ROFL BROS
1372
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 17:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Poor players will blow though all that isk quickly enough. I just blew through 4 mill last night ... |
Chris F2112
187. Unclaimed.
175
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
When everyone runs proto, it's very difficult to make money in a match. Costs are fine right now, especially since PC is eating up much of those extra funds as we speak. Increasing costs now would just make costs imbalanced down the road. |
Gorra Snell
BetaMax. CRONOS.
7
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP has already said they intend to implement a player-player market within DUST, and eventually link it to eve, but that they're doing it slowly and carefully. I doubt they're going to be swayed to speed it up by us, so that's not going to help the proto pubstomping any time soon.
I think upping the ante for FW matches might be a better, or at least far more expedient solution. Offering something other than Skirmish in FW, too... |
Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
141
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Poor players will blow though all that isk quickly enough.
Here's the problem with that, though:
Weaker players (not just poor players... average players too) cannot compete UNLESS they also go proto... meaning that they will bankrupt themselves trying to keep pace, then be stuck using advanced or basic gear... where they will get their kittens handed to them even more.
So what happens then?
They get frustrated by getting fragged left and right, and quit? They AFK in matches to get payouts and skills, while not contributing to the match and making the game better? They go red-line sniper, in an effort to save ISK?
How does the top 5% curb-stomping the other 95% of the playerbase make the game healthy?
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows
174
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Proto gear should start at 500k for mods, 2.5m for weapons and 5m for dropsuits.
It is PROTOTYPE equipment, it isn't cheap.
Other option is:
It is PROTOTYPE equipment, it isn't exactly the most reliable (after all, PROTOTYPES are usually the first of a kind). |
Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
141
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gorra Snell wrote:CCP has already said they intend to implement a player-player market within DUST, and eventually link it to eve, but that they're doing it slowly and carefully. I doubt they're going to be swayed to speed it up by us, so that's not going to help the proto pubstomping any time soon.
I think upping the ante for FW matches might be a better, or at least far more expedient solution. Offering something other than Skirmish in FW, too...
I don't see how upping the payout from FW will solve the problem.... the inventory liquidation made it easier to run all proto... so how does increasing an ISK faucet (i.e. adding more money) solve the problem?
We need bigger ISK sinks, to take ISK out of the economy and make proto gear "special use", not "must have to have a chance at competing". |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
1351
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Give free vehicle skills to the richer players and watch their wallets drain. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire
59
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
If you look at it from a newer player's perspective, raising the cost of proto gear only makes it that much more unobtainable for them. I currently have about 105 mil. ISK. i have only been playing since mid march. I can't imagine how much isk someone who has been playing since the closed beta must have accumulated.
Raising the cost for proto will likely not effect those players much at all, only the newer players. |
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IamI3rian
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
62
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Planetary conquest WILL alleviate this issue somewhat. Clones are expensive. = )
Also, I'm not convinced proto gear is the be all end all of Dust. Certainly it's mathematically superior. However, when you consider how many SP you save using advanced gear... and the ability to adapt in combat... proto gear costs more than isk.
Just as mathematically, if you saved those few hundred thousand skill points from speccing up to proto from advanced (say a GEK v a Duvalle) you'd remain slightly less effective but you'd have many more options. For example take those extra points and skill up to a Logistics LAV. All of a sudden you have a car that can be fitted with a spawn point/better turret etc. Same argument can be made for a decent HAV.
Or AV weapons. Instead of a massive damage AR, you might be able to run a slightly less massive damage AR and a advanced flaylock instead of a militia scrambler/toxin SMG. Eventually I think proto gear will be the way to go. Unquestionably. However, the ability to adapt to what's happening around you is worth a lot more than 2-4 more damage per round.
At least in my experience.
Instead of that Duvalle you could have a GEK and an advanced nanohive/injector. = )
Just throwing that out there. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic ROFL BROS
1372
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nightbird Aeon wrote:
We need bigger ISK sinks
And we want our ISK to go to NPCs and not other players why exactly? |
Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
141
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Posted - 2013.05.17 18:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:Nightbird Aeon wrote:
We need bigger ISK sinks
And we want our ISK to go to NPCs and not other players why exactly?
Doesn't have to go to an NPC... but it has to leave circulation... leave the market. NPC vendors are just one way... and lets be fair... that is currently the ONLY isk sink in the game right now. You die, and replace your gear from the NPCs...
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Delirium Inferno
Edoras Corporation
279
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Posted - 2013.05.17 18:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Skihids wrote:Give free vehicle skills to the richer players and watch their wallets drain. HAHAHA, so brilliant!
"Wow, that was awfully nice of CCP to give me Assaut Dropship Operation Level 5 at no cost to my skill points."
One week later.
"Dammit" |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4256
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Posted - 2013.05.17 18:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
As a omni soldier I know that gear (quality) doesn't make the soldier. |
J Timbo
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.05.17 18:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
I think the price of Proto gear is fine in relation to pub matches. But its so cheap compared to the cost of a clone, it becomes unbalanced in PC. Clone costs are like 2-3X the cost of a full proto loadout.
Rough example: PUB MATCH: Standard Gear:5K Advanced Gear: 50K Proto Gear: 300K
So you have a 1000% leap from standard to advanced, and a 6000% leap from standard to proto, and a 600% leap from advanced to proto.
But lets look at PC.
Standard: 5K + 533.33K for starter clone = 538.33K Advanced: 50K + 533.33K for starter clone = 583.33k Proto: 300K+533.33K for starter clone = 833.33K
So now instead of advanced being 1000% the cost of standard, it is now 108% the cost.
Instead of proto being 6000% the cost of standard, it is now 156% the cost.
Instead of proto being 600% the cost of advanced it is now 142% the cost.
See the problem? |
Full Metal Kitten
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
349
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Posted - 2013.05.17 18:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nightbird Aeon wrote:Weaker players (not just poor players... average players too) cannot compete UNLESS they also go proto... meaning that they will bankrupt themselves trying to keep pace, then be stuck using advanced or basic gear... where they will get their kittens handed to them even more. Mileage will vary I guess. Skills make a huge difference. I run my militia suit (with all mods and weapons at advanced) most of the time and run a positive KDR versus protobears. I still get stomped every once in a while though. And I pull out my advanced suit for situational work. I've been playing since open beta launch though. Newbros need experience more than they need proto. |
Luk Manag
of Terror
8
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Posted - 2013.05.17 18:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
The isk conversion was a bit excessive. I had something like 245mil, and now I have several stacks of 500+ proto builds ...What's worse is that I really-really want to use up my D.T.ARs before they nerf them.
The situation isn't so dire, because there could be a random collection of unlikely heroes (Ahrendee Mercenaries) who can rally the n00bs for a comeback assault. The coms action plays out something like this, "there's a bunch of drunken idiots running around the base in protosuits (me) and they're just good enough to beat my level 3 gear..." That's where the hero in you perks up - you know you can afford to end their foolish pub-stomp - and so, for the good of all, you turn the tide with your own 170K fits |
Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
141
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 18:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:The isk conversion was a bit excessive. I had something like 245mil, and now I have several stacks of 500+ proto builds ...What's worse is that I really-really want to use up my D.T.ARs before they nerf them. The situation isn't so dire, because there could be a random collection of unlikely heroes (Ahrendee Mercenaries) who can rally the n00bs for a comeback assault. The coms action plays out something like this, "there's a bunch of drunken idiots running around the base in protosuits (me) and they're just good enough to beat my level 3 gear..." That's where the hero in you perks up - you know you can afford to end their foolish pub-stomp - and so, for the good of all, you turn the tide with your own 170K fits
While I'm happy to bust out my cape, tights and ring of power, the fact is this:
Blueberries generally retreat to the redline and don't come back out, once all the points go red or the kills start to be too one-sided. In squads from 4-6, us RND guys (Ahrendee) will push to grab one point... or perhaps drop an uplink or two.... and end up playing 5 vs 16, because the blueberries have given up. We get swarmed, killed, our spawn points get popped, camped or rehacked.... and we're back to spawning behind the red line. We've just lost our try-hard proto gear... and the blueberries are sniping, hiding, or washing the bay in the MCC.
Now, everyone will get redlined every now and then, but I think all can agree that the most fun matches are the evenly matched ones.... where you're winning by less than 5 clones, or are neck-and-neck on the MCC's hp.... redline blowouts suck for both teams.... just they suck a little less for the winners... but they still suck.
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Byozuma Kegawa
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
38
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Posted - 2013.05.17 18:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
While I can use prototype dropsuits (logistics, anyway) I don't because I can only use militia modules due to that prototype suit wearing ability taking nearly all my SP... yeah, life is not good. Instead I run advanced suits because it's cheaper. |
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire
59
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Posted - 2013.05.17 18:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:As a omni soldier I know that gear (quality) doesn't make the soldier.
No but it does make the soldier a bit more effective.
Even at that a scrub who has all core skills (shields, armor, PG/CPU weapon proficiency) and
4 complex (insert module) in high slots and 3 complex (insert module) in low slots and 1 complex (insert eq. module) on a proto suit with a proto gun
stands a lot better chance than an average new player who has little to no core skills and
2 MLT or basic (insert module) in high slots 2 MLT or basic (insert module) in low slots 1 MLT or basic (insert eq. module) on a MLT or standard suit with a MLT or standard gun.
*slot layout may not be exact but you get the point. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4259
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Posted - 2013.05.17 19:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Only slightly, I still kill idiots with my milita weapons because they don't know how to strafe or they run out in the open. Just the amount of bullets it requires to kill them slightly increases. |
Evil-Stuffed-Animal
Ahrendee Mercenaries
21
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Posted - 2013.05.17 19:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nightbird Aeon wrote:Blueberries generally retreat to the redline and don't come back out, once all the points go red or the kills start to be too one-sided. In squads from 4-6, us RND guys (Ahrendee) will push to grab one point... or perhaps drop an uplink or two.... and end up playing 5 vs 16, because the blueberries have given up. We get swarmed, killed, our spawn points get popped, camped or rehacked.... and we're back to spawning behind the red line. We've just lost our try-hard proto gear... and the blueberries are sniping, hiding, or washing the bay in the MCC.
lol the blueberries has given up as soon as they touch the power button on the PS3. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Only slightly, I still kill idiots with my milita weapons because they don't know how to strafe or they run out in the open. Just the amount of bullets it requires to kill them slightly increases.
ok so think about this
Vet running all basic gear in a MLT suit having all core skills at max 25% more shield and armor 15% more damage and what 15 percent less dispersion and kick
vs
Noob with same gear with maybe shield and armor lvl 1 and (weapon) operation lvl 1
toe to toe who wins this gunfight?
granted player skill plays a part, but it becomes more of a part of the game when there isn't such a disparity between opponents' skill (SP) lvl |
Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
141
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Posted - 2013.05.17 19:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
Evil-Stuffed-Animal wrote:
lol the blueberries has given up as soon as they touch the power button on the PS3.
Can't argue there... |
Happy Violentime
OMFGZOMBIESRUN
67
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Posted - 2013.05.17 19:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
I would hazard a guess that a lot of that isk is being spent on PC |
Rusty Shallows
Black Jackals
74
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Posted - 2013.05.17 19:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
The problem isn't gear its match-making.
However I agree that the influx of isk has made it easier for people to get into nicer gear we need to compare it to the last game build. We had "haves" with high SP and isk who could go proto and do very well. Then the 'have-nots" who more often than not getting harvested. In my 6 mil to 8 mil Skill Point phase it wasn't uncommon for me to break even on isk payout or go negative by 100,000 ISK plus especially when the game went bloodbath for everyone with close objectives of opposite colors. Not going to even bother commenting on suit losses with bad game connections.
To be honest I was curious if Planetary Conquest wasn't going to be violent enough and that their extra isk was going to translate into an influx of endless proto modules on vehicles. My inner demon is telling me CCP tightened up fitting skill on both vehicles and suits out of concern not unlike the underlining premise of this thread about spamming the best-of-the-best without consequence. |
Luk Manag
of Terror
8
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Posted - 2013.05.17 19:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Nightbird Aeon wrote:Luk Manag wrote:The isk conversion was a bit excessive. I had something like 245mil, and now I have several stacks of 500+ proto builds ...What's worse is that I really-really want to use up my D.T.ARs before they nerf them. The situation isn't so dire, because there could be a random collection of unlikely heroes (Ahrendee Mercenaries) who can rally the n00bs for a comeback assault. The coms action plays out something like this, "there's a bunch of drunken idiots running around the base in protosuits (me) and they're just good enough to beat my level 3 gear..." That's where the hero in you perks up - you know you can afford to end their foolish pub-stomp - and so, for the good of all, you turn the tide with your own 170K fits While I'm happy to bust out my cape, tights and ring of power, the fact is this: Blueberries generally retreat to the redline and don't come back out, once all the points go red or the kills start to be too one-sided. In squads from 4-6, us RND guys (Ahrendee) will push to grab one point... or perhaps drop an uplink or two.... and end up playing 5 vs 16, because the blueberries have given up. We get swarmed, killed, our spawn points get popped, camped or rehacked.... and we're back to spawning behind the red line. We've just lost our try-hard proto gear... and the blueberries are sniping, hiding, or washing the bay in the MCC. Now, everyone will get redlined every now and then, but I think all can agree that the most fun matches are the evenly matched ones.... where you're winning by less than 5 clones, or are neck-and-neck on the MCC's hp.... redline blowouts suck for both teams.... just they suck a little less for the winners... but they still suck.
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows
175
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:31:00 -
[29] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Only slightly, I still kill idiots with my milita weapons because they don't know how to strafe or they run out in the open. Just the amount of bullets it requires to kill them slightly increases.
How do you know that they don't know how to strafe? Maybe they are just boycotting strafing. It is possible. |
Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries
142
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:39:00 -
[30] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Only slightly, I still kill idiots with my milita weapons because they don't know how to strafe or they run out in the open. Just the amount of bullets it requires to kill them slightly increases. How do you know that they don't know how to strafe? Maybe they are just boycotting strafing. It is possible.
Clearly, Iron Wolf Saber hasn't boycotted saying how pro he is, so therefore others should be pro too
On a serious, non-trolling note... strafing is important, but can be predicted if constant. Weaving is the best, but for the life of me, I don't understand how someone weaves while running at me, and never takes a hit when I have a SMG or non-TAC assault rifle. I mean... christ, they should at least get the occasional tick of damage, just by the law of averages.
And.... yesterday I saw a guy in what must have been a 100% speed-fit Minmitar scout suit.... this guy was bunny hopping so much, and he got INSANE height on this jumps... easily jumped higher than he was tall...
WOW.... I wonder if the speed nerf we saw a while ago in EVE (nano-Vagabond, anyone???) will have a nerf-cousin in Dust... |
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