DUST Search - [Feedback] A closer look at the Gallente Scout, please fix this!

Delirium Inferno wrote:

In case you were concerned about it breaking the role of the active scanner, I'll leave this here

Bones McGavins wrote:

The only issue with buffing the gallante scout's range increase is that you really cant make the gallante scout's passive scanning anywhere near as powerful as an active scanner. Otherwise you break the role of the latter.

It sucks, I started speccing down gallante and now realize how terrible of an idea that was.

And what would be wrong if the one of the scout suits could do the role of an active scanner without the active scanner? It's not like all of them would, it would only be the one dedicated towards electronic warfare. Also the best active scanner scans with a precision of 15dB. The Gallente Scout has a scan precision of 45dB and only gets one high slot for a potential precision enhancer, you aren't getting close to the effectiveness of an active scanner. Plus if you did that you are now all out of mod slots so no shield or armor boost for you, and you have no CPU room for anything other than standard grade weapons and equipment. The active scanner would still have a useful purpose, not only among logis but even among Gallente Scout if they chose not to dedicate all their slots to get something sorta similar.

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Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 242	Posted - 2013.05.13 15:51:00 - [1] - Quote The Gallente Scout has a few oddities when compared to it's Minmatar Scout cousin and I would like to point these out and offer suggestions. 1) The racial bonuses. Right now Minmatar Scout gets a 5% bonus to nova knife damage per level. At Level 5, that is a 25% increase. A complex sidearm modifier would increase the nova knife damage by 10%. So basically having a prototype Minmatar scout is like having 2 and a half complex sidearm modifiers on at all times. Meanwhile, the Gallente Scout gets 10% scanning range per level. At Level 5 that's 50%. A complex range amplifier increases range by 45%. So this is like having a little over one complex range amplifier on at all times. You see what's not right here? So instead of nerfing the Minmatar because nerfing sucks, why don't you buff the Gallente bonus. Make is 20% or 25% increase per level, that would make it more on par with the Minmatar bonus. 2) Have the devs actually looked at how far a Gallente scout can scan with everything maxed out? Here is a chart of the radar for reference, http://s23.postimg.org/vzroe12fv/minimap_ranges.jpg So a Gallente Scout can scan with a radius of 10 meters. This is half of the inner circle, nearly useless but understandable since it is unspecialized. Add the 50% from Scout Level 5 and you are still only at 15 meters scanning. Check the radar, this is still pitiful. But ok, let's max out and get 50% from Range Amplifer Level 5 and 45% from a complex range amplifier times 4 since you get 4 low slots. You are now at 280% increase to the 10 meter scan radius, which is 38 meters. You now can scan up to the first tick which is decent range, but that is doing absolutely everything you can to max out the range, plus it takes up over half of your CPU and leaves you with only 1 high slot for customization. Come on, if you were to invest that much into expanding your scanning range it should be greater. 3) It's clear you have the Gallente Scout set up to be more of the electronic warfare guy while the Minmatar Scout is more of the speedy assassin. So why do they share so many attributes? Gallente scouts should get a larger base scan radius, and Minmatar in turn should get a higher base melee damage or something.
KURO SHISHI Prima Gallicus 6	Posted - 2013.05.13 16:05:00 - [2] - Quote yes but gallente scout have more pv. me i dont understand why scout proto basic suit are so expensive it's a shame more expensive than all other type
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 1126	Posted - 2013.05.13 16:08:00 - [3] - Quote I'm not on right now, but maybe Dropsuit Profile should be looked into as well.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 244	Posted - 2013.05.13 17:00:00 - [4] - Quote KURO SHISHI wrote: yes but gallente scout have more pv. me i dont understand why scout proto basic suit are so expensive it's a shame more expensive than all other type I'm sorry, but what do you mean by pv? And ideally all proto suits should cost the same since they should all provide an equal amount of support for the team, even if they are low health and damage. Giving the Gallente Scout a scan radius that is actually meaningful would be a step into this direction. The Minmatar Scout can already get to a point where he is doing 1200 damage with Nova Knives.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 244	Posted - 2013.05.13 17:10:00 - [5] - Quote In case you were concerned about it breaking the role of the active scanner, I'll leave this here Bones McGavins wrote: The only issue with buffing the gallante scout's range increase is that you really cant make the gallante scout's passive scanning anywhere near as powerful as an active scanner. Otherwise you break the role of the latter. It sucks, I started speccing down gallante and now realize how terrible of an idea that was. And what would be wrong if the one of the scout suits could do the role of an active scanner without the active scanner? It's not like all of them would, it would only be the one dedicated towards electronic warfare. Also the best active scanner scans with a precision of 15dB. The Gallente Scout has a scan precision of 45dB and only gets one high slot for a potential precision enhancer, you aren't getting close to the effectiveness of an active scanner. Plus if you did that you are now all out of mod slots so no shield or armor boost for you, and you have no CPU room for anything other than standard grade weapons and equipment. The active scanner would still have a useful purpose, not only among logis but even among Gallente Scout if they chose not to dedicate all their slots to get something sorta similar.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 55	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:06:00 - [6] - Quote Delirium Inferno wrote: In case you were concerned about it breaking the role of the active scanner, I'll leave this here Bones McGavins wrote: The only issue with buffing the gallante scout's range increase is that you really cant make the gallante scout's passive scanning anywhere near as powerful as an active scanner. Otherwise you break the role of the latter. It sucks, I started speccing down gallante and now realize how terrible of an idea that was. And what would be wrong if the one of the scout suits could do the role of an active scanner without the active scanner? It's not like all of them would, it would only be the one dedicated towards electronic warfare. Also the best active scanner scans with a precision of 15dB. The Gallente Scout has a scan precision of 45dB and only gets one high slot for a potential precision enhancer, you aren't getting close to the effectiveness of an active scanner. Plus if you did that you are now all out of mod slots so no shield or armor boost for you, and you have no CPU room for anything other than standard grade weapons and equipment. The active scanner would still have a useful purpose, not only among logis but even among Gallente Scout if they chose not to dedicate all their slots to get something sorta similar. Beyond this explanation, think about the range of the active scanner. Minimum 100m. Proto variant has 200+m range. Whereas we're talking about maybe increasing to 15-20m passive range that is upgradeable to 25-34m with complex range enhancer (rough numbers). While yes, this is 360 degrees (presumably), only really useful for scouting close areas and being sneaky, not providing team data or putting info into other teammates HUDs either.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 248	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:12:00 - [7] - Quote More good points that I haven't thought of, thank you Driftward!
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 187	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:42:00 - [8] - Quote I posted all this in another thread, but here is good too: It's not just the Gallente Scout though, the entire GAME needs a bump to scanning range. Right now, with most people scanning under 20m. This means all of EWAR suffers. Nobody gains value from using their minimaps, since the only people inside of 20m are already within Close Quarters. Thus "tricking" the minimap with EWAR skills is a pointless waste. Nobody has the range to see you sneaking up anyway, even if they wanted to. On the flip side, almost everyone is constantly shooting at targets well outside their natural scanning range: 40m, 60m, or 80m away. At this distance is easy to see anybody, even a scout, but your minimap wasn't "tricked" simply by the fact that it doesn't reach that far to begin with. All those dampeners and skills are pointless to the scout. He could be just as clever and use cover or back routes without any investment at all. Or by the time the scout sees he is in hot water by pinging 4 or 5 enemies, he is already too close to get away. THE FIX: Base scanning for Medium Frames and derivatives should be 30m, with the ability to increase that through EWAR skills to 60m (or 84m, since Delirium showed 280% increase is possible on an appropriate suit maxed out) Base scanning for Light Frames can match that, while Scout gets a bonus bump to 40m to start. That means scouts could get up to 80m, and the Gallente even further than that (again, 280% seems possible that would be 112m. Not game breaking considering the Active Scanner range that ANYBODY can get). What this does is it puts the scanning radius of most individuals in line with the effective range of most AR, LR, Pistol, and SMG weapons. Basically, if you can see them on your minimap, they can most likely shoot you and you can most likely shoot them. This obviously doesn't mesh with super short range Shotgun or super long range Sniper Rifle, but it doesn't need to. With this simple change, people will use the minimap to inform their offensive and defensive choices. That in turn will make "tricking" the minimap with EWAR more valuable. Scouts will have to specialize in dampening, or else enemies with even moderate observation speccing will pick them up a mile away. In turn, Scouts will actually be able provide intelligence. They will also be able to sense targets outside of effective weapon range, and change their direction before getting slaughtered.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 253	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:55:00 - [9] - Quote I like what you're saying, but to correct you on your math the 280% is an increase, meaning you have to take into consideration the 100% that is already there. 280% increase is 380% of the base value. So if base value was 30 meters, that could get buffed to 114 meters. If base value was 40 then that would get buffed to 152 meters. I still don't think that is particularly game breaking though as that would be a scout that is dedicating everything he has to improve his range and it would limit him to standard grade weapons and equipment, and it would still only be with 45dB of precision which anyone can easily get under if they wanted.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 454	Posted - 2013.05.13 19:05:00 - [10] - Quote Give them a boost to non-combat based equipment use, like scanners & uplinks. Or a boost to radar modules in a similar fashion to the infamous Caldari logi's shield boost. After using the scanner & seeing how useful it can be, I really want to see a few dedicated Gallente scouts.

Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 254	Posted - 2013.05.13 19:10:00 - [11] - Quote Thing is with only one equipment slot now it's hard to argue for the active scanner. That seems more like a toy for the logi. All I ever run in my equipment slot is drop uplinks so I can get teammates into bases once I've infiltrated them. A bonus to range amplifier effectiveness like the Caldari logi's shield extender effectiveness is a good idea, but if that was the only thing they did it would have to be really substantial. Right now maxing out scan radius you still get something that is only mildly useful.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 482	Posted - 2013.05.13 19:25:00 - [12] - Quote base is 10m suit bonus 101.5=15m Scanner range skill 151.5=22.5 Complex range mod #1 22.51.45=32.625 Complex range mod #2 32.6251.45=47.30625 Complex range mod #3 47.306251.45=68.5940625 Complex range mod #4 68.59406251.45=99.461390625 Current max passive scan range 99.5m an 894.61390625% increase over the base range The Minmatar scout bonus is equal to an enhanced melee biotic(mylofiber or something like that), complex gives +50% melee. The Gallente scout bonus is equal to a enhanced sensor range boost mod. All scan radius were reduced to 10m this build, old build scout had 25m and others 15m. I see the need for the cut in range, but why not proprtional? Scout suit scan 16.666.. would be in old build proportion compared to other suits. This would make max gallente scout scan 165.768984375m at 32.4 precision with max skills and all slots filled with scan boosts. It doesn't seem unreasonable for a maxed out one trick suit with maxed skills to be a better then adv single slot gear and better in some ways then the proto scanner. Suit built like this would help team, but have to hide and avoid enemy whole time getting no wp.
Spergin McBadposter Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 36	Posted - 2013.05.13 19:35:00 - [13] - Quote Ten-Sidhe wrote: base is 10m suit bonus 101.5=15m Scanner range skill 151.5=22.5 Complex range mod #1 22.51.45=32.625 Complex range mod #2 32.6251.45=47.30625 Complex range mod #3 47.306251.45=68.5940625 Complex range mod #4 68.59406251.45=99.461390625 You forgot about the stacking penalty.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 256	Posted - 2013.05.13 20:31:00 - [14] - Quote Ten-Sidhe wrote: base is 10m suit bonus 101.5=15m Scanner range skill 151.5=22.5 Complex range mod #1 22.51.45=32.625 Complex range mod #2 32.6251.45=47.30625 Complex range mod #3 47.306251.45=68.5940625 Complex range mod #4 68.59406251.45=99.461390625 Current max passive scan range 99.5m an 894.61390625% increase over the base range The Minmatar scout bonus is equal to an enhanced melee biotic(mylofiber or something like that), complex gives +50% melee. The Gallente scout bonus is equal to a enhanced sensor range boost mod. All scan radius were reduced to 10m this build, old build scout had 25m and others 15m. I see the need for the cut in range, but why not proprtional? Scout suit scan 16.666.. would be in old build proportion compared to other suits. This would make max gallente scout scan 165.768984375m at 32.4 precision with max skills and all slots filled with scan boosts. It doesn't seem unreasonable for a maxed out one trick suit with maxed skills to be a better then adv single slot gear and better in some ways then the proto scanner. Suit built like this would help team, but have to hide and avoid enemy whole time getting no wp. Are you sure that's how the percent bonuses work? Only reason I question that is because it would then matter the order in which you applied each percentage increase. It makes more sense that they would work simply by adding the percentages then doing one massive percent increase. Though if you're way is indeed how it works that is great news, but 100 meters is still not as high as it should be. Can a dev give us a confirmation on how the percentages actually work?
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 189	Posted - 2013.05.13 20:35:00 - [15] - Quote Delirium Inferno wrote: I like what you're saying, but to correct you on your math the 280% is an increase, meaning you have to take into consideration the 100% that is already there. 280% increase is 380% of the base value. So if base value was 30 meters, that could get buffed to 114 meters. If base value was 40 then that would get buffed to 152 meters. I still don't think that is particularly game breaking though as that would be a scout that is dedicating everything he has to improve his range and it would limit him to standard grade weapons and equipment, and it would still only be with 45dB of precision which anyone can easily get under if they wanted. Damn you, Mathematics But whatever the actual value, I would like it if Assaults and Logis could reasonably get their radar range to match their weapon range. The most common value for optimum range seems to be nearabouts 60m. So make base radar such that Level 3 scanning skill would get you at ~60m. Then, if you want to max your range you can take it into the 80m or 100m level and really be specialized. Scouts should be 10-15% above THAT. Scouts should be able to see people beyond weapon reach if they are specced as such. As it stands now, everyone is so blind that "decreasing your profile" is essentially meaningless. I'd wager almost all deaths occur outside the killer's scanning range.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 271	Posted - 2013.05.15 11:52:00 - [16] - Quote Assault and Logis are nowhere close to getting good range if the scout designed for range can't even.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 78	Posted - 2013.05.15 18:38:00 - [17] - Quote I'd like a Dev to comment on trends they have seen in usage of profile dampeners. I'm fairly confident in saying that the use of dampeners has decreased tremendously. There are few to no incentives to use them right now. Passive scanning sucks so much that there's no point, I can sneak up just as well dampened as a I can undampened in my scout suit. Perhaps the only utility is coutering active scanners. Yet with fairly little investment to active scanners (say advanced level) I can see at least adv scouts using enhanced dampeners (playing as said scout this happens not infrequently, I'll mention it here it's much more of an investment to get into dampening). Even, this advantage is fairly minimal. The times where people use scanners is close to main fronts and large battles, less commonly for looking at random directions for flankers or behind you. If said trend is developing, then I think that provides pretty good evidence of passive scanning needing some love. Active scanning has a different role than passive scanning. I honestly believe that active scanning would have a role even if passives went back to their original levels in chromosome. A nice compromise might be if only scouts/light frames got their range buffed (beyond just the racial bonus).
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 288	Posted - 2013.05.18 07:10:00 - [18] - Quote Going to bump this for good measure because it's still an issue and there has been no word if anythings even being looked at.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 290	Posted - 2013.05.18 07:30:00 - [19] - Quote New thoughts, it all depends on how percentages are added and whether or not there is a stacking penalty to range amplifiers. There's two ways I see it. 50% from scout suit 50% from range amplifiers level 5 45% from complex range amplifier x4 That is a total of 280% increase, which with a base value of 10m makes your max scanning range 38m. This is quite pathetic for a maxed out range scanner scout. Or 50% from scout suit 50% increase to new value from range amplifier level 5 45% increase to new value from complex range amplifier x4 So thats 10 x 1.5 x 1.5 x (1.45)^4 = 99.5 meters. This is pretty darn useful. You factor out that 1.5 from the scout and your range is now only 66.3 meters. Not nearly the same effect. If it's the first one then it definitely needs a major buff to at least 25 meters. If it is the second one it still needs a buff to at least 15 meters. No reason the scout - especially the Gallente scout - should have the same base range. And if you move it to 15 and it follows the second case then you got 149 meter range which is according to the follow graphic your entire radar http://s23.postimg.org/vzroe12fv/minimap_ranges.jpg Honestly that's where it makes sense for it to be, considering you are going in the suit designed for long range scanning, you are maxing everything out and putting all your slots as complex range amplifiers, and sacrificing decent weaponry and protection to do so. Furthermore, keep in mind the scouts precision is still 45dB. It is not hard to get below this with any class, and the Active Scanner has a much higher precision. So even with this maximum potential passive scanning there would still be an important role for active scanners for Gallente scouts and especially all other suit types like logistics and whatnot.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 426	Posted - 2013.05.18 07:32:00 - [20] - Quote Spergin McBadposter wrote: Ten-Sidhe wrote: base is 10m suit bonus 101.5=15m Scanner range skill 151.5=22.5 Complex range mod #1 22.51.45=32.625 Complex range mod #2 32.6251.45=47.30625 Complex range mod #3 47.306251.45=68.5940625 Complex range mod #4 68.59406251.45=99.461390625 You forgot about the stacking penalty. ^

Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 296	Posted - 2013.05.18 07:35:00 - [21] - Quote So does it have a stacking penalty? If so, what is it? Seems like it shouldn't really need a stacking penalty.
Emerald Bellerophon Nenikekamen 15	Posted - 2013.05.18 18:33:00 - [22] - Quote Bumping this.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 296	Posted - 2013.05.18 18:43:00 - [23] - Quote Edited the OP. The modules are compounded, not added, and there is no stacking penalty for amplifiers. Gallente Scout still needs a base range increase from 10 to 15 meters.
PADDEHATPIGEN BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 13	Posted - 2013.05.18 18:50:00 - [24] - Quote The nova knife is also a Caldari weapon, why do Minmatar have bonus to a Caldari weapon ?
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 313	Posted - 2013.05.18 18:57:00 - [25] - Quote PADDEHATPIGEN wrote: The nova knife is also a Caldari weapon, why do Minmatar have bonus to a Caldari weapon ? I would hope they would broaden the bonus to include all melee weapons after the other melee weapons are added.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 99	Posted - 2013.05.21 21:10:00 - [26] - Quote While I'm bumping scout threads I'll toss a bump here too. All scouts consider posting here, even if it's just to say you support whats being talked about here. We need some more visibility (seeing as scouts are supposed to be stealthy...bad puns....sigh) with this issue.


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