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N1ck Comeau
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
350
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Posted - 2013.05.12 14:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75425&find=unread Last 2 paragraphs
The removal of the Sharpshooter skill (which gave bonuses to range) has also highlighted some issues with range in general. Weapon classes need unique range profiles. I doubt anyone would dispute that. And the sharpshooter skill was pushing far too many weapons beyond their intended engagement ranges. While itGÇÖs removal has caused some issues, the SS skill was a crutch and it hid more deep-seated problems with range in the game. It will not be coming back.
Right now, all weapons have an optimal and maximum range. Unfortunately, at its max range the weapon simply stops doing damage. This is bad for a whole host of reasons and we'll be addressing this with a point release in the near future by giving all weapons an optimal, effective and absolute range. Up to the optimal range weapons will do 100% damage (shield/armor profiles notwithstanding) and then drop off slowly towards their effective range. From effective range out to the absolute range damage will drop noticeably but weapons will still do incidental damage even at extreme ranges.
So from reading this we now know that weapons will soon be able to do damage from anywhere which is great but the damage will be smaller and smaller as you move out of optimal range. Honestly a step in the right direction for sure to many people could just hit from anywhere with an Ar with the SS skill. Good job CCP this is a good fix to the issue |
N1ck Comeau
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
352
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Posted - 2013.05.12 15:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved just in case |
The Rohypnol Kid
Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2013.05.12 15:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
"swish" |
Canari Elphus
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
90
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Posted - 2013.05.12 15:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
That is assuming you can actually see the toon you are shooting at with CCPs weapon based rendering distances |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2976
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 15:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
This is going to completely change the feel of this game |
Middas Betancore
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
2
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Posted - 2013.05.12 15:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
I DONT NEED THE GUN JOHN!! |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
410
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Posted - 2013.05.12 15:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
I don't really agree with this theory crafting about optimal, effective, and absolute.
An object in motion stays in motion until something forcefully stops it.
If I shoot you in the head at point blank, it's going to not be a good time.
If I shoot you in the head from a hundred meters away, it's going to not be a good time.
This, however, is not science fiction. It's fantasy. |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2976
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 15:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:I don't really agree with this theory crafting about optimal, effective, and absolute.
An object in motion stays in motion until something forcefully stops it.
If I shoot you in the head at point blank, it's going to not be a good time.
If I shoot you in the head from a hundred meters away, it's going to not be a good time.
This, however, is not science fiction. It's fantasy. Bullets do not work that way. Good night.
Are you factoring dropsuits into that?
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Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
410
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 15:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
A dropsuit doesn't care what range the shot hitting it was fired from. The force is exactly the same until something stops the shot.
Motion and force isn't going to lessen just because its a few meters further back. CCP is using derp logic again. |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2976
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 15:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Motion and force isn't going to lessen just because its a few meters further back. CCP is using derp logic again.
Well I don't think it would be all too fun to let assault rifles bombard you from the other side of the map, games are games |
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Canari Elphus
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
91
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Posted - 2013.05.12 15:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:I don't really agree with this theory crafting about optimal, effective, and absolute.
An object in motion stays in motion until something forcefully stops it.
If I shoot you in the head at point blank, it's going to not be a good time.
If I shoot you in the head from a hundred meters away, it's going to not be a good time.
This, however, is not science fiction. It's fantasy. Bullets do not work that way. Good night. Are you factoring dropsuits into that?
Or just physics in general. You can state all the laws you want but that doesn't mean you are right. Even if its a normal projectile weapon, you would have friction and gravity working against it. At very long distances, you have to take into account the curvature of the planet into account |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
411
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 15:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:I don't really agree with this theory crafting about optimal, effective, and absolute.
An object in motion stays in motion until something forcefully stops it.
If I shoot you in the head at point blank, it's going to not be a good time.
If I shoot you in the head from a hundred meters away, it's going to not be a good time.
This, however, is not science fiction. It's fantasy. Bullets do not work that way. Good night. Are you factoring dropsuits into that? Or just physics in general. You can state all the laws you want but that doesn't mean you are right. Even if its a normal projectile weapon, you would have friction and gravity working against it. At very long distances, you have to take into account the curvature of the planet into account
At the ranges CCP is talking about, gravity, wind, etc would not be an issue. The difference between a bullet doing 100% damage and a bullet doing 1% damage is going to be around 30 meters on average.
You don't have to be a physics major to recognize stupidity when you see it. |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2977
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 15:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:You don't have to be a physics major to recognize stupidity when you see it.
So what's your suggestion? |
Canari Elphus
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
92
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Posted - 2013.05.12 15:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:I don't really agree with this theory crafting about optimal, effective, and absolute.
An object in motion stays in motion until something forcefully stops it.
If I shoot you in the head at point blank, it's going to not be a good time.
If I shoot you in the head from a hundred meters away, it's going to not be a good time.
This, however, is not science fiction. It's fantasy. Bullets do not work that way. Good night. Are you factoring dropsuits into that? Or just physics in general. You can state all the laws you want but that doesn't mean you are right. Even if its a normal projectile weapon, you would have friction and gravity working against it. At very long distances, you have to take into account the curvature of the planet into account At the ranges CCP is talking about, gravity, wind, etc would not be an issue. The difference between a bullet doing 100% damage and a bullet doing 1% damage is going to be around 30 meters on average. You don't have to be a physics major to recognize stupidity when you see it.
Yes but if you want this to be realistic then everyone will be complaining about weapon kick and bullet spread. Try firing a real assault rifle at a moving target while you are moving. Let me know how accurate it is.
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N1ck Comeau
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
352
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 15:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
It's a game what does realism have to do with it?
If you want realism get a gun and start shooting. oh and we're way way in the future and in a different Universe type thing, everything could have changed |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
411
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 15:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Scrap that system because it makes no sense whatsoever and limit peoples effectiveness at range the way every single other first person shooter worth its salt does it.
Accuracy. Spread. Kick.
You make the long range shot about player skill, and not about spreadsheets.
An HMG with a wide spread isn't going to do much good at super long ranges. I could spray a hundred bullets and maybe a couple will tag my enemy. It was too good in chromosome because with higher levels of SS, the accuracy actually tightened with it and that made it better than intended.
The same thing happened with the AR and every other weapon.
Keep the kick levels reasonable and nothing will be broken at range.
Scouts honor, this formula works. Been proven in FPS titles over and over again since the dawn of competitive gaming. |
N1ck Comeau
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
352
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Scrap that system because it makes no sense whatsoever and limit peoples effectiveness at range the way every single other first person shooter worth its salt does it.
Accuracy. Spread. Kick.
You make the long range shot about player skill, and not about spreadsheets.
An HMG with a wide spread isn't going to do much good at super long ranges. I could spray a hundred bullets and maybe a couple will tag my enemy. It was too good in chromosome because with higher levels of SS, the accuracy actually tightened with it and that made it better than intended.
The same thing happened with the AR and every other weapon.
Keep the kick levels reasonable and nothing will be broken at range.
Scouts honor, this formula works. Been proven in FPS titles over and over again since the dawn of competitive gaming.
Tons of FPS games use the method CCP is talking about and it is a good method i don't see a problem with it. |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
411
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
N1ck Comeau wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Scrap that system because it makes no sense whatsoever and limit peoples effectiveness at range the way every single other first person shooter worth its salt does it.
Accuracy. Spread. Kick.
You make the long range shot about player skill, and not about spreadsheets.
An HMG with a wide spread isn't going to do much good at super long ranges. I could spray a hundred bullets and maybe a couple will tag my enemy. It was too good in chromosome because with higher levels of SS, the accuracy actually tightened with it and that made it better than intended.
The same thing happened with the AR and every other weapon.
Keep the kick levels reasonable and nothing will be broken at range.
Scouts honor, this formula works. Been proven in FPS titles over and over again since the dawn of competitive gaming. Tons of FPS games use the method CCP is talking about and it is a good method i don't see a problem with it.
Halo is the only other game I know of with disappearing shots and they happen at extreme ranges. There is absolutely no comparison. |
Kaze Eyrou
ROGUE SPADES EoN.
188
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Scrap that system because it makes no sense whatsoever and limit peoples effectiveness at range the way every single other first person shooter worth its salt does it.
Accuracy. Spread. Kick.
You make the long range shot about player skill, and not about spreadsheets.
An HMG with a wide spread isn't going to do much good at super long ranges. I could spray a hundred bullets and maybe a couple will tag my enemy. It was too good in chromosome because with higher levels of SS, the accuracy actually tightened with it and that made it better than intended.
The same thing happened with the AR and every other weapon.
Keep the kick levels reasonable and nothing will be broken at range.
Scouts honor, this formula works. Been proven in FPS titles over and over again since the dawn of competitive gaming. Can you give us some psudocode to give us an idea? (not sure if spelled that right) |
ZDub 303
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
101
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
In the end, I don't care how realistic if its fun.
The optimal/effective/absolute range will work great if they can tune the ranges right. |
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Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
413
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Well it's fairly simple. The farther away a target is, the smaller the target is and therefore harder to hit. The longer you fire, the more kick your weapon gives you and that makes a difficult to hit target even more difficult to hit. This naturally dissolves the need for the system CCP wants to put in, because closer range weapons are already supposed to do massive amounts of damage with crazy kick.
Factor in that this is a fairly high HP game and it is fairly impractical to have too many long range engagements anyway, because you will have to re-orient yourself between every shot in order to combat the kick. You would also waste a ton of ammo. But the option is there if you are skilled enough, or you are attempting to pick off someone who is knocking at deaths door and trying to get away.
It also opens up more opportunities and weapon roles that would seemingly be impossible currently.
For example, a single HMG guy across the road may not be able to respectably kill the person on the other side due to the range penalties on CCP's system.
On the system I have recommended however, even if he can't do enough damage to kill him in a straight 1v1, he CAN keep him pinned down while allies flank his position and finish him off. If his damage is diminished to something silly like 1% however, he will not be effective at this role at all. The shots have to at least sting a little, even if only a few of them are landing.
When you uncork the silly caps we have on range, you increase the number of tactical possibilities on the battlefield. That is a good thing. |
Dis Cord
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
107
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Scrap that system because it makes no sense whatsoever and limit peoples effectiveness at range the way every single other first person shooter worth its salt does it.
Accuracy. Spread. Kick.
You make the long range shot about player skill, and not about spreadsheets.
An HMG with a wide spread isn't going to do much good at super long ranges. I could spray a hundred bullets and maybe a couple will tag my enemy. It was too good in chromosome because with higher levels of SS, the accuracy actually tightened with it and that made it better than intended.
The same thing happened with the AR and every other weapon.
Keep the kick levels reasonable and nothing will be broken at range.
Scouts honor, this formula works. Been proven in FPS titles over and over again since the dawn of competitive gaming.
I already know you agree, but, like this? |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
413
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
You tell'em, Vic! |
Disturbingly Bored
Universal Allies Inc.
221
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Well it's fairly simple. The farther away a target is, the smaller the target is and therefore harder to hit. The longer you fire, the more kick your weapon gives you and that makes a difficult to hit target even more difficult to hit. This naturally dissolves the need for the system CCP wants to put in, because closer range weapons are already supposed to do massive amounts of damage with crazy kick.
Factor in that this is a fairly high HP game and it is fairly impractical to have too many long range engagements anyway, because you will have to re-orient yourself between every shot in order to combat the kick. You would also waste a ton of ammo. But the option is there if you are skilled enough, or you are attempting to pick off someone who is knocking at deaths door and trying to get away.
It also opens up more opportunities and weapon roles that would seemingly be impossible.
For example, a single HMG guy across the road may not be able to respectably kill the person on the other side due to the range penalties on CCP's system.
On the system I have recommended however, even if he can't do enough damage to kill him in a straight 1v1, he CAN keep him pinned down while allies flank his position and finish him off. If his damage is diminished to something silly like 1% however, he will not be effective at this role at all. The shots have to at least sting a little, even if only a few of them are landing.
When you uncork the silly caps we have on range, you increase the number of tactical possibilities on the battlefield. That is a good thing.
Hate to say it, because it means that i'll just be another round of massive change, growing pains, and rebalancing, but I really like this idea. With no range limit, I could see weapons that otherwise step on each others toes living together like this:
AR: Good DPS, high accuracy, high kick. You can kill at long range with careful controlled bursts, but the kick will keep it mostly to midrange.
HMG: High DPS, medium accuracy, bucks like a rodeo bull (dispersion is stupid on an HMG, it isn't a shotgun). The kick would have to be wild enough to keep you from killing at long range.
Shotgun: Honestly, keep the damage flat for all versions of the shotty. Have the thing that improves be shot dispersion (and therefore effective range) as you get into proto, and you'd make the shotty crowd pretty happy.
Laser: Low-mid DPS, perfect accuracy, zero kick. It's freaking weaponized light. It should have near-limitless effective range, but the significant drawback would be the need for a constant bead on target due to low damage. You could lose the heat/damage mechanic and save it for the Scrambler Rifle. |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
413
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ironically, the laser is the only weapon that should fall under CCP's system of diminished damage over distance, and thats precisely because it has no kick whatsoever.
Too good is too good.
The infinite laser would be the death of us all. |
Scramble Scrub
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
180
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:A dropsuit doesn't care what range the shot hitting it was fired from. The force is exactly the same until something stops the shot.
Motion and force isn't going to lessen just because its a few meters further back. CCP is using derp logic again. Un no, the force is not the samw due to friction that is caused when it is fired through the atmosphere. That is what's stopping the bullets from dealing max damage at a distance. Pulse these bullets are not solid, they're plasma Plasma cools over time.
Plus they needed to do something that gives all the weapons their lore friendly traits. |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
413
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:50:00 -
[27] - Quote
Scramble Scrub wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:A dropsuit doesn't care what range the shot hitting it was fired from. The force is exactly the same until something stops the shot.
Motion and force isn't going to lessen just because its a few meters further back. CCP is using derp logic again. In no, the force is not the se due to friction that is caused wjen it is fired through the atmosphere. That's is what's stopping the bullets from dealing max damage at a distance. Pulse these bullets are not solid, they're plasma Plasma cools over time.
You are talking about precisely one weapon in the game, and it's pretty much whatever with the lore. Tech can be adapted to make something work for the sake of good gameplay. If they wanted to make it comparable to every other weapon all they would have to do is adapt the weapon to fire plasma the same way minmatar weapons in space fire plasma.
It unloads a small round containing plasma. Upon impact, it explodes. Woosh, plasmafied baddies everywhere! Rejoice!
Or they could simply say "Plasma doesn't cool down that fast, it's fine. Have your shot." |
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