DUST Search - Who would win?

Thumb Green wrote:

I was having a discussion with someone on reddit about the affect gear has on the outcome of a battle. Quite frankly I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall; so I figured I'd come and get you all's opinion on the matter.

Take 16 of the best players put them on a team; then make a carbon copy to put on the other team. We now have a team of equal skill & cohesion. They know the same tactics and how to counter those tactics. All things are equal and barring luck the battle will end in a stalemate (I know dust doesn't actually allow for that). Am I correct in that assumption?

Now take the very same teams, to tip the balance we put one team in militia gear and the other in proto gear. Everything else remains equal and still barring luck which team wins?

To me it's obvious that with everything being equal other than gear and without luck involved that the proto team will win; because their gear will allow them to deal out & take more damage. Am I incorrect in that assumption?

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Thumb Green THE STAR BORN Dark Taboo 81	Posted - 2013.05.12 00:55:00 - [1] - Quote I was having a discussion with someone on reddit about the affect gear has on the outcome of a battle. Quite frankly I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall; so I figured I'd come and get you all's opinion on the matter. Take 16 of the best players put them on a team; then make a carbon copy to put on the other team. We now have a team of equal skill & cohesion. They know the same tactics and how to counter those tactics. All things are equal and barring luck the battle will end in a stalemate (I know dust doesn't actually allow for that). Am I correct in that assumption? Now take the very same teams, to tip the balance we put one team in militia gear and the other in proto gear. Everything else remains equal and still barring luck which team wins? To me it's obvious that with everything being equal other than gear and without luck involved that the proto team will win; because their gear will allow them to deal out & take more damage. Am I incorrect in that assumption?
DJINN Marauder Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 559	Posted - 2013.05.12 00:56:00 - [2] - Quote No you're right. Proto gear team will win
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 1529	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:04:00 - [3] - Quote Your right, the other team will put up a good fight, but in an intense firefight, the extra damage/HP of the proto team will be the telling difference. Militia teams only hope is to backhack and get the proto team to split up to hold Down objectives, then Zerg them one at a time. Even then I'll doubt that it will be an effective tactic.
Disturbingly Bored Universal Allies Inc. 207	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:11:00 - [4] - Quote Gear matters in this game. It just doesn't matter as much as player skill. Back when they used to run Asia Game Show matches in the beta, they'd let random show goers drop into a match with full proto loadouts and max skills, then let them go against us normal beta players. It was the easiest ISK I ever made.
Veritas Vitae Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 150	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:22:00 - [5] - Quote In this hypothetical scenario, yes the proto team wins. However, you will NEVER see this scenario in actuality, and it is very rare for two teams to be very close in skill in pubs and FW (glorified pubs) so all gear does is add to the (im)balance of pubs. Sometimes it helps level the playing field, other times it makes the discrepancy worse, but ultimately is not the deciding factor in a match, since anyone with decent SP has at least a basic frame at proto for the extra HP and slots they can pull out if they truly care about getting that win.
Thumb Green THE STAR BORN Dark Taboo 82	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:22:00 - [6] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Gear matters in this game. It just doesn't matter as much as player skill. Back when they used to run Asia Game Show matches in the beta, they'd let random show goers drop into a match with full proto loadouts and max skills, then let them go against us normal beta players. It was the easiest ISK I ever made. I understand that but like I said we're taking two teams with equal skill & cohesion (a carbon copy of one team on the other team) not one team of experienced beta players version random show goers.
Thumb Green THE STAR BORN Dark Taboo 82	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:25:00 - [7] - Quote Veritas Vitae wrote: In this hypothetical scenario, yes the proto team wins. However, you will NEVER see this scenario in actuality, Of course that's why it's a hypothetical scenario but that's beside the point.
Gunner Needed The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 125	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:26:00 - [8] - Quote Vegeta would own both teams....
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Orion Empire 106	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:26:00 - [9] - Quote So you are saying skill, tactics, EVERYTHING else being equal? Well, then obviously the prototype team wins. If EVERYTHING ELSE is equal and then you give a benefit to the otherside, you have imbalance. 5 = 5 5 + 1 > 5 Be well.
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 291	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:26:00 - [10] - Quote Who is the idiot you're arguing with? Tell him to go against me with militia gear. Militia dies as soon as I look at it. Gear DOES matter, because numbers matter. You can't argue with MATH!

Full Metal Kitten Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 244	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:27:00 - [11] - Quote I think the militia team will win. Some of the protobears will end up AFKing because they forgot how to get out of the MCC. You forgot to take that into account.
Disturbingly Bored Universal Allies Inc. 209	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:28:00 - [12] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: I understand that but like I said we're taking two teams with equal skill & cohesion (a carbon copy of one team on the other team) not one team of experienced beta players version random show goers. Fair enough, and hopefully I don't sound like an ass, but that's simple math, isn't it? X + 1 > X Take two things that are equal, and add something to one side, it should be no surprise that the side with an added benefit will come out on top. EDIT to above poster: Joseph, we think alike.
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 291	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:33:00 - [13] - Quote I think that Proto gear is between 30%(medium frame) and 120%(light frame) more effective than militia gear. So the formula is x + (x*0.7) > y
Thumb Green THE STAR BORN Dark Taboo 84	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:33:00 - [14] - Quote Ok so it seems safe to say I was indeed arguing with a brick wall on reddit.
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 329	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:35:00 - [15] - Quote The one who's better at grenade spamming
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Orion Empire 106	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:36:00 - [16] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: Ok so it seems safe to say I was indeed arguing with a brick wall on reddit. (I mean this entirely as a joke) Don't argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to your level and beat you with experience. Be well.
hooc order Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement 53	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:39:00 - [17] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: I was having a discussion with someone on reddit about the affect gear has on the outcome of a battle. Quite frankly I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall; so I figured I'd come and get you all's opinion on the matter. Take 16 of the best players put them on a team; then make a carbon copy to put on the other team. We now have a team of equal skill & cohesion. They know the same tactics and how to counter those tactics. All things are equal and barring luck the battle will end in a stalemate (I know dust doesn't actually allow for that). Am I correct in that assumption? Now take the very same teams, to tip the balance we put one team in militia gear and the other in proto gear. Everything else remains equal and still barring luck which team wins? To me it's obvious that with everything being equal other than gear and without luck involved that the proto team will win; because their gear will allow them to deal out & take more damage. Am I incorrect in that assumption? You are correct...gear/sp is carrying bad players in Dust....and there are 1000s of them.
ALM1GHTY B44L R00 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 11	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:43:00 - [18] - Quote I don't really think anyone is arguing with you either there, or here. Better gear is better. What's your point?
Jet-Set-Willy Clone The c64s 3	Posted - 2013.05.12 01:52:00 - [19] - Quote Veritas Vitae wrote: In this hypothetical scenario, yes the proto team wins. However, you will NEVER see this scenario in actuality, and it is very rare for two teams to be very close in skill in pubs and FW (glorified pubs) so all gear does is add to the (im)balance of pubs. Sometimes it helps level the playing field, other times it makes the discrepancy worse, but ultimately is not the deciding factor in a match, since anyone with decent SP has at least a basic frame at proto for the extra HP and slots they can pull out if they truly care about getting that win. challange the imps to a game where your team only has militia suits, mods and weapons and they can use proto everything. im willing to bet even though you chaps are good you get absolutely stomped into the ground.
Arron Rift Commando Perkone Caldari State 120	Posted - 2013.05.12 02:11:00 - [20] - Quote One question that the OP did not mention is whether both teams have infinite funding.

Nariec Carbon 7 7	Posted - 2013.05.12 03:07:00 - [21] - Quote NO your wrong! You forgot to factor in the Human Spirit and it's ability to endure. Sometimes the underdog will win because of shear Will Power. But in all seriousness, all your math don't mean squat when your out in the field, specially if the difference between the two teams is just one of their players being in Proto while the other team has a Militia. Even if you don't put in "luck" out in the field, there will always be uncertainty that follows. For example, the two teams is duking it out, but not ALL 16 teammates would be present in that field of bloodshed, some of them would be doing something else. What if the guy who runs a Militia is staying behind everyone because he knows his weakness and instead of being a hero, he decides to support his teams by being smart, staying behind Heavies and Logis and shooting the targets of his teammates, he doesn't get kills, but he does get some kill assists.
Rynoceros One-Armed Bandits Heretic Initiative 55	Posted - 2013.05.12 03:51:00 - [22] - Quote Nothing better than putting down a black suit in freebies. By this measure of satisfaction, every K is a win - and a smile.
The dark cloud Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1400	Posted - 2013.05.12 04:06:00 - [23] - Quote Fully specced tank vs militia fitted sica. Enough sayd.
Arron Rift Commando Perkone Caldari State 120	Posted - 2013.05.12 04:10:00 - [24] - Quote If funding is infinite, then yes the Proto team would probably win. But what you're not factoring in is the diminished self-preservation that the militia team would have due to the low cost of their suits. For just 1k-2k per suit, militias can afford to fight to the bitter end, whereas Protos will be more likely to retreat as soon as they start taking heavy damage, perhaps abandoning the objective to save their fancy suit
bcs1a ROYAL SQUAD Shadow of the Apocalypse 31	Posted - 2013.05.12 04:46:00 - [25] - Quote Arron Rift wrote: One question that the OP did not mention is whether both teams have infinite funding. in his example funding is irrelevant. re-read what he wrote.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 90	Posted - 2013.05.12 05:12:00 - [26] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: Veritas Vitae wrote: In this hypothetical scenario, yes the proto team wins. However, you will NEVER see this scenario in actuality, Of course that's why it's a hypothetical scenario but that's beside the point. i'm having a hard time finding the point.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Unclaimed. 516	Posted - 2013.05.12 05:22:00 - [27] - Quote Arron Rift wrote: One question that the OP did not mention is whether both teams have infinite funding. Or whether the two teams spawn at the same time. Or what map and whether attacking or defending has a natural advantage on that map. Or whose side wins the orbital battle. Or who has infiltrated who and has worked to develop a counter to tactics revealed. And many better questions that i'm not clever enough to think up. These questions are not fair to the OP's original question. And to give the OP a straight-up answer, better gear wins. But i'm willing to bet that among the corps that are real contenders in DUST, gear will never decide a battle. At least not until one team has had their corp driven mercilessly into economic ruin and politically isolated from their friends and backers. At which point the final gutting of the gear-starved losers by the gleaming god-like victors will be both epic and tragic. And public. But even then it's not the gear that won the battle, but rather the economic club and the political knife.
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 117	Posted - 2013.05.12 05:51:00 - [28] - Quote Actual player skill in this game is about 5% of the total needed to win. Skill points and gear are the other 95%.
hooc order Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement 55	Posted - 2013.05.12 10:02:00 - [29] - Quote Schalac 17 wrote: Actual player skill in this game is about 5% of the total needed to win. Skill points and gear are the other 95%. yup If this game actually survives...probably won't with the idiotic SP leveling system...it will be funny to watch all the EvE players start getting all their faces smashed by good FPS players who have the same gear/sp they have. (seriously the EvE players are horrible at this game....they have been playing it a year and i can beat them with crap Sp and crap gear and i have been playing friggin minecraft for the past year...can't imagine what real FPS players can do to them.) They will whine and moan and call everything OP... Wait a second....it is already happening.
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 261	Posted - 2013.05.12 10:08:00 - [30] - Quote thats a one sides arguement, skill can make up for lvl differnce but it can't help with the massive differnce between militia and Proto. Now if you said one side had standard or adv and the other proto, then that could go either way because of skill, However if we assume both teams are identical in that area then the better gear wins but in reality no amount of pretty expensive gear will help a bad player not get head shotted by a better player

bcs1a ROYAL SQUAD Shadow of the Apocalypse 31	Posted - 2013.05.12 21:36:00 - [31] - Quote Schalac 17 wrote: Actual player skill in this game is about 5% of the total needed to win. Skill points and gear are the other 95%. I can agree that skills and gear account for allot, but, my son and some other players I know do quite well when running starter or basic level 1 gear, so I'm fairly certain that "player skill" equates to a good portion more than 5%
Schalac 17 Murderz for hire 121	Posted - 2013.05.14 01:47:00 - [32] - Quote bcs1a wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: Actual player skill in this game is about 5% of the total needed to win. Skill points and gear are the other 95%. I can agree that skills and gear account for allot, but, my son and some other players I know do quite well when running starter or basic level 1 gear, so I'm fairly certain that "player skill" equates to a good portion more than 5% Let's say 10% then, but when your gear and SP give you 3-4 times more HP and 40% more damage while allowing you to traverse the map faster and fire more accurately. Well, you get the point. That is why I can't wait for the day that all these EVE players that have loads of SPs from playing for so long reach the bell curve and everyone else that has been playing FPSs for years and years catch up to them. I mean I already destroy a bunch of people and I am just an advanced suit nerfed weapon heavy. Wait until all the heavy suits are out and I am in proto sentinel gear using a weapon that has been fixed to no longer suck. It will be like the teaser.


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