DUST Search - Your SP system is bad and you should feel bad

J'Jor Da'Wg wrote:

LOL

This thread illustrates perfectly the EVEtard mentality... "time spent grinding automatically equals depth"

His point literally went right over your heads as you threw the well worn out arguments that sidestep or completely ignore the truth of what the OP is saying.

The thing is, so many of you don't step back and see the big picture, and focus on these little stupid points instead of seein how it should MESH together...

An FPS is radically different from an MMORPG space sim. Yes they share the same universe and should have crossover between them but wholesale copying is bad from one genre to the next. FPS should have a low barrier of entry to the roles you wish to play as, with the skill system taking a backseat to the gameplay and shooting. Currently, much of DUST revolves around SP, the accrual and allocation of. Instead of enjoying each game I instead find myself worrying about SP at the end of match. SP is so crucial to everything in DUST that falling behind is a huge disadvantage.

I keep repeating myself in different threads but the "SP lake" should be shallow but wide. Instead of narrow and deep.
There should be hundreds, if not thousands of skills, but none should take more than a week or two to max out. The amount of skills present should keep you busy and unable to get all of them fast because of the sheer amount....

The answer to this is adding heaps of content for small skills to apply to. Make a few SP intensive core skills that take maybe a few weeks to max out (like dropsuits and such) but the rest should really be a small SP investment unless it crosses between DUST and EVE (like corp management) then make it the same...

This system WOULD allow easy and fast feeling progression while still giving a long roadmap to hardcore players.

In other words, the core of the game should be cheap and easy, but there should be a wealth of content for those who go beyond casual play to invest into...

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Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 738	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:03:00 - [1] - Quote Why this new SP system is bad, presented in a hopefully easy to understand manner that uses a lot of words: Meaningless disclaimer: My numbers may be wrong slightly, because I couldn't find a great resource to get the info in a way that was easy to process, but the magnitude of difference in comparisons won't be a big deal if the numbers are off by the most that they could be (might have skipped or double-counted a couple skills in each case and don't really want to go back over it all again, error is likely to be the same on both sides, so differences are essentially the same if there are any errors). 1. It takes too long to specialize. The time to max-spec has increased by a large factor. Max-spec in this case is going to factor in being able to use one suit, one weapon, and have access to modules to fill all slots and have all passives that influence that fit. Using any old suit running an AR: Last build, time to max-spec was roughly: 28.3 million SP (552.6 days without boosters) This build, time to max-spec is roughly: 37.9 million SP (740.8 days without boosters) Note: If we factored in a sidearm, the gap would only be about 1.5 million SP smaller (about 8 million total difference). Those numbers are vastly inflated by a lot of things like maxing out your stamina/hacking kind of passives that you don't really need, but if you've got nothing else to dump points into, "why not?" kind of situations. The problem with these changes becomes apparent when cross-spec'ing a max-spec suit. Say you want to take this character and use some new weapons - scrambler rifle and laser rifle. Last build, time to max-spec the two weapons: 4.35 million SP (85 days without boosters) This build, time to max-spec the two weapons: 13.7 million SP (267.2 days without boosters) In the first instance, there was a lot of overlap with the light weapon skills. Now, to get into a weapon, you start fully from scratch. Not only does it take longer to max your spec in general, but it takes more than 3x the amount of time to add a new weapon to your repertoire. 2. It is literally impossible for a player to utilize all the content. I get the concept of nobody should be maxed everything, but here are the facts: It will take you over 12 years to max all of the available skills. That is without boosters, but it also requires that you hit your active cap every single week. Seem like a long time? It should. In order to get racial parity in the items shown at fanfest (suits, knives, pistols, rifles, and vehicles), it will add another 5.4 years worth of items (just over 100 mill SP, if everything follows the current SP model). Don't argue that you can use alts to use all the available content. Numbers used here require that the player hit their active cap each and every week, which is an investment of roughly 10 hours per week per character. To have enough SP to access all the initial Uprising content in just 2 years would take playing the game in excess of 60 hours per week, every week, for 2 years. 3. Why does any of this matter? There are 4 problems with this current situation: 1. The reward system is sparse. Games are designed to trickle in rewards and keep next-rewards in sight of the player to maintain interest. This new system pushes next-rewards so far out of view for something so unrewarding (30 days to unlock the last level of your gallente logistics dropship skill for 2% reduction in armor module CPU cost). 2. The grind becomes the focus of the game. You are not able to play the game how you want, because you don't have everything your desired fit requires. This makes the focus on earning SP, rather than enjoying the game in different ways. Want to hire yourself out as a ringer and focus solely on Planetary Conquest? Too bad, you have to sacrifice some of your time because you need this week's SP still because you still don't have X. 3. It is impossible (loosely-used, but literal pre-1 year mark) to be well-equipped both in vehicles and on the ground. You have to specialize to be competitive, lest you be mediocre at everything. If you want to use vehicles, you have to dump all your SP there, and with no cross-spec skills (eg. armor/shield hp, CPU/PG passives like we had before), you end up with your SP split 100/0 instead of 100/40 or so. 4. The gap between new players and vets increases substantially. This is the biggest one. The longer it takes someone to specialize, the longer it takes a new player to catch up to those already specialized. Remember how much fun everyone was having in low-end gear facing full squads of proto players? Make that struggle a much longer period of time and you have the current SP system.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1453	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:05:00 - [2] - Quote It will only take you 4 years if you have a dozen free alts!
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 371	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:16:00 - [3] - Quote The "content" promised in this patch seems to actually just be adding more grind. We asked for content and less grind and got the opposite.
Balzich Rotaine Rotaine Shipping Inc 34	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:22:00 - [4] - Quote Exactly, I played the beta. So, why can't I have proto everything right now so I can pub stomp all new players no matter what gear they bring to the field. Why make us specialize at all? With 8 million sp there is no reason why I shouldn't have a proto tank, dropship, heavy, and logi. I mean it's been hours since the new build came out. I should be at or close to end game by now.
Peanut Butter KitKat Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:24:00 - [5] - Quote Err.... How's this system different?.. Was it faster to level before?
Vance Alken Commando Perkone Caldari State 106	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:25:00 - [6] - Quote OP you don't seem to understand what kind of games CCP make.
eveningstargems kali's hoarde 0	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:25:00 - [7] - Quote Balzich Rotaine wrote: Exactly, I played the beta. So, why can't I have proto everything right now so I can pub stomp all new players no matter what gear they bring to the field. Why make us specialize at all? With 8 million sp there is no reason why I shouldn't have a proto tank, dropship, heavy, and logi. I mean it's been hours since the new build came out. I should be at or close to end game by now. So who's the idiot? It's called time... people spent time on the game you moron.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Orion Empire 79	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:30:00 - [8] - Quote Balzich Rotaine wrote: Exactly, I played the beta. So, why can't I have proto everything right now so I can pub stomp all new players no matter what gear they bring to the field. Why make us specialize at all? With 8 million sp there is no reason why I shouldn't have a proto tank, dropship, heavy, and logi. I mean it's been hours since the new build came out. I should be at or close to end game by now. To be fair, this change is probably going to make it even harder for new players. I have 8 million SP too but I went for broader specializations with Vehicles, AV, and Assault. Now I will have to just choose one. Annoying but I can survive. The problem is that it will take a new player almost two months to be able to say "I am now a Logistics" or even that they become anything other than a frame IF they rush for it. So with out 8 million skill point lead we are pretty much unassailable. Before it would be "I have four million skill points. I am a decent logstics" and "I have twelve million skills points. I am a decent logistics, driver, and assault." Now it will be "I have 4 million skill points; I am almost something" and "I have 12 million skills points; I am nearly prototype something." Be well.
Mithridates VI IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 1216	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:30:00 - [9] - Quote Nice work not reading the thread everyone. In the coming weeks as many of us who have enough no-life SP put aside to actually get a single specialisation rampage about and new players join the game on hearing about its release only to realise they will have to play for months before they can match us in a single domain, then give up because the time investment required to stand a chance is too great... remember that Tiel Syysch said "The gap between new players and vets increases substantially" and you heard "I want to be more powerful."
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 742	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:31:00 - [10] - Quote Peanut Butter KitKat wrote: Err.... How's this system different?.. Was it faster to level before? Many of the skills' multipliers went up or stayed the same. Very few went down. Also, many skills got separated out, eg. Light Weapon Rapid Reload turned into Assault Rifle Rapid Reload AND Laser Rifle Rapid Reload AND Shotgun Rapid Reload AND... Balzich Rotaine wrote: Exactly, I played the beta. So, why can't I have proto everything right now so I can pub stomp all new players no matter what gear they bring to the field. Why make us specialize at all? With 8 million sp there is no reason why I shouldn't have a proto tank, dropship, heavy, and logi. I mean it's been hours since the new build came out. I should be at or close to end game by now. Perhaps you would enjoy reading the thread before commenting on it next time?

Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1454	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:31:00 - [11] - Quote People seriously are too dumb for so much logic skytt. They don't understand lengthy vertical progression just spreads content thin. Horizontal progression gives us far more options than good, better, best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw Incomparables will make this game last years, not gating content so new players have to suffer longer to be competitive.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1440	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:34:00 - [12] - Quote Vance Alken wrote: OP you don't seem to understand what kind of games CCP make. You have a point. For the last year all CCP talked about was Faction Warfare, Plantary conquest, PVE, etc and thats all my small brain heard. I must have filtered out the part where they said "well you can do all that stuff when you aren't working for ccp to grind sp 10 hours a week. Oh and we are going to jack up sp skill costs, but sell you higher multipler active boosters to make up for it" Like it or not CCP is selling SP not content and we are just going to have to accept that.
Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 181	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:36:00 - [13] - Quote Yeah, EVE's 10 years of ... oh, never mind.
Balzich Rotaine Rotaine Shipping Inc 35	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:38:00 - [14] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: Peanut Butter KitKat wrote: Err.... How's this system different?.. Was it faster to level before? Many of the skills' multipliers went up or stayed the same. Very few went down. Also, many skills got separated out, eg. Light Weapon Rapid Reload turned into Assault Rifle Rapid Reload AND Laser Rifle Rapid Reload AND Shotgun Rapid Reload AND... Balzich Rotaine wrote: Exactly, I played the beta. So, why can't I have proto everything right now so I can pub stomp all new players no matter what gear they bring to the field. Why make us specialize at all? With 8 million sp there is no reason why I shouldn't have a proto tank, dropship, heavy, and logi. I mean it's been hours since the new build came out. I should be at or close to end game by now. Perhaps you would enjoy reading the thread before commenting on it next time? Nah im good.
Reefersmokintaz Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 34	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:40:00 - [15] - Quote 1. Welcome to New Eden 2. Welcome to New Eden, again. Here's a complementary lei 3. Welcome to New Eden, Motherfu*ker, now gimme that lei or 100mill isk...Your choice
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 731	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:43:00 - [16] - Quote LOL This thread illustrates perfectly the EVEtard mentality... "time spent grinding automatically equals depth" His point literally went right over your heads as you threw the well worn out arguments that sidestep or completely ignore the truth of what the OP is saying. The thing is, so many of you don't step back and see the big picture, and focus on these little stupid points instead of seein how it should MESH together... An FPS is radically different from an MMORPG space sim. Yes they share the same universe and should have crossover between them but wholesale copying is bad from one genre to the next. FPS should have a low barrier of entry to the roles you wish to play as, with the skill system taking a backseat to the gameplay and shooting. Currently, much of DUST revolves around SP, the accrual and allocation of. Instead of enjoying each game I instead find myself worrying about SP at the end of match. SP is so crucial to everything in DUST that falling behind is a huge disadvantage. I keep repeating myself in different threads but the "SP lake" should be shallow but wide. Instead of narrow and deep. There should be hundreds, if not thousands of skills, but none should take more than a week or two to max out. The amount of skills present should keep you busy and unable to get all of them fast because of the sheer amount.... The answer to this is adding heaps of content for small skills to apply to. Make a few SP intensive core skills that take maybe a few weeks to max out (like dropsuits and such) but the rest should really be a small SP investment unless it crosses between DUST and EVE (like corp management) then make it the same... This system WOULD allow easy and fast feeling progression while still giving a long roadmap to hardcore players. In other words, the core of the game should be cheap and easy, but there should be a wealth of content for those who go beyond casual play to invest into...
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 731	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:47:00 - [17] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: People seriously are too dumb for so much logic skytt. They don't understand lengthy vertical progression just spreads content thin. Horizontal progression gives us far more options than good, better, best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw Incomparables will make this game last years, not gating content so new players have to suffer longer to be competitive. EXACTLY. Its a simple concept, and one that would benefit us all, but too many people here are cockjockeys for CCP to be able to take their earplugs out and stop screaming and listen...!
Ryanki VENGEANCE FOR HIRE 34	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:53:00 - [18] - Quote J'Jor Da'Wg wrote: LOL This thread illustrates perfectly the EVEtard mentality... "time spent grinding automatically equals depth" His point literally went right over your heads as you threw the well worn out arguments that sidestep or completely ignore the truth of what the OP is saying. The thing is, so many of you don't step back and see the big picture, and focus on these little stupid points instead of seein how it should MESH together... An FPS is radically different from an MMORPG space sim. Yes they share the same universe and should have crossover between them but wholesale copying is bad from one genre to the next. FPS should have a low barrier of entry to the roles you wish to play as, with the skill system taking a backseat to the gameplay and shooting. Currently, much of DUST revolves around SP, the accrual and allocation of. Instead of enjoying each game I instead find myself worrying about SP at the end of match. SP is so crucial to everything in DUST that falling behind is a huge disadvantage. I keep repeating myself in different threads but the "SP lake" should be shallow but wide. Instead of narrow and deep. There should be hundreds, if not thousands of skills, but none should take more than a week or two to max out. The amount of skills present should keep you busy and unable to get all of them fast because of the sheer amount.... The answer to this is adding heaps of content for small skills to apply to. Make a few SP intensive core skills that take maybe a few weeks to max out (like dropsuits and such) but the rest should really be a small SP investment unless it crosses between DUST and EVE (like corp management) then make it the same... This system WOULD allow easy and fast feeling progression while still giving a long roadmap to hardcore players. In other words, the core of the game should be cheap and easy, but there should be a wealth of content for those who go beyond casual play to invest into... QFT
Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 181	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:59:00 - [19] - Quote Look, new players won't have had the luxury of playing the beta. They also aren't likely to be coming from the EVE universe. All they are going to want to do is run around killing other folks using whatever tools they find in the game. They don't have preconceptions of what the balance should have been -- they'll just go fight. If that, fighting on the field, is fun, they'll do it. They won't even know what the skills do for a week or two -- unless they start doing a lot of reading and learning before they start playing. What I'm saying is that they won't even know that they should be concerned about the issues being raised in this thread. I'd guess that CPP will look at the percentage of new players that turn the corner, that start progressing, and tweak if not enough do. If I were CCP I'd also look at where the revenue comes from. Maxed out players who are pubstomping day after day may not be that place.
crazy space 1 Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic 1093	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:01:00 - [20] - Quote It's like they forgot the game was going to have more than 8 suits to leveling into. There is going to be 48 of them , each taking 4 months of active game time to level up to max. And that doesn't count weapons... or support skills.... It went from 7 years to 35 years of skills to train over night Also EVE ONLINE DOES IT RIGHT, Dust does it wrong, think about that, throws table

eveningstargems kali's hoarde 0	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:02:00 - [21] - Quote Balzich Rotaine wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: Peanut Butter KitKat wrote: Err.... How's this system different?.. Was it faster to level before? Many of the skills' multipliers went up or stayed the same. Very few went down. Also, many skills got separated out, eg. Light Weapon Rapid Reload turned into Assault Rifle Rapid Reload AND Laser Rifle Rapid Reload AND Shotgun Rapid Reload AND... Balzich Rotaine wrote: Exactly, I played the beta. So, why can't I have proto everything right now so I can pub stomp all new players no matter what gear they bring to the field. Why make us specialize at all? With 8 million sp there is no reason why I shouldn't have a proto tank, dropship, heavy, and logi. I mean it's been hours since the new build came out. I should be at or close to end game by now. Perhaps you would enjoy reading the thread before commenting on it next time? Nah im good. The correct terminology is evil.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Orion Empire 79	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:04:00 - [22] - Quote I am also sad that either my Raven or my Sever is 10 dollars wasted =-( Be well
crazy space 1 Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic 1094	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:08:00 - [23] - Quote Would anyone play eve online if it took 5 months to level up Ammar frigate 5?
Matakage WildCard Ninja Clan 43	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:09:00 - [24] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: People seriously are too dumb for so much logic skytt. They don't understand lengthy vertical progression just spreads content thin. Horizontal progression gives us far more options than good, better, best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw Incomparables will make this game last years, not gating content so new players have to suffer longer to be competitive. Isn't it the goal of Dust 514 to have the various roles themselves (Heavy, Logi, Assault) be the incomparables? Ideally, one class isn't supposed to be better than another -- just different. One thing I've noticed about the complaints in the forums is that a lot of people are complaining about not being one-man armies anymore. In fact, many of them are stating that the only way they can be useful is to have someone with them helping them. I find that pretty hilarious because I always thought of this as a team game. If a role is only viable with the help of another role, that sounds like everything's working as intended.
MORGAN2518 B.S.A.A. 0	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:14:00 - [25] - Quote J'Jor Da'Wg wrote: LOL This thread illustrates perfectly the EVEtard mentality... "time spent grinding automatically equals depth" His point literally went right over your heads as you threw the well worn out arguments that sidestep or completely ignore the truth of what the OP is saying. The thing is, so many of you don't step back and see the big picture, and focus on these little stupid points instead of seein how it should MESH together... An FPS is radically different from an MMORPG space sim. Yes they share the same universe and should have crossover between them but wholesale copying is bad from one genre to the next. FPS should have a low barrier of entry to the roles you wish to play as, with the skill system taking a backseat to the gameplay and shooting. Currently, much of DUST revolves around SP, the accrual and allocation of. Instead of enjoying each game I instead find myself worrying about SP at the end of match. SP is so crucial to everything in DUST that falling behind is a huge disadvantage. I keep repeating myself in different threads but the "SP lake" should be shallow but wide. Instead of narrow and deep. There should be hundreds, if not thousands of skills, but none should take more than a week or two to max out. The amount of skills present should keep you busy and unable to get all of them fast because of the sheer amount.... The answer to this is adding heaps of content for small skills to apply to. Make a few SP intensive core skills that take maybe a few weeks to max out (like dropsuits and such) but the rest should really be a small SP investment unless it crosses between DUST and EVE (like corp management) then make it the same... This system WOULD allow easy and fast feeling progression while still giving a long roadmap to hardcore players. In other words, the core of the game should be cheap and easy, but there should be a wealth of content for those who go beyond casual play to invest into... My sentiments exactly. Before, players were able to at least get some cross-role bonuses that made speccing into something a viable choice. NOW however that choice is gone. Like you said, there should be a wealth of cheap content for players to try but also a smaller amount of content for players to get much deeper into.
Oro Ossi Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:15:00 - [26] - Quote My problem is with the SP wasting dropsuit skills The racial light/medium/heavy Dsuit V (rank 10) to train the Dsuit skills, that's like spending 20+ days in EVE training light ship's before you can train for frigate's. Wouldn't be so bad if they wasn't racial skills that's only about 3m wasted SP but you have 12 skills to train that's about 12m SP that does nothing for the game. Who's idea was that ? The weapon skills are not a problem each 1 is different and there's no wasted SP for wasting SP's sake.
Yani Nabari One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas 41	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:28:00 - [27] - Quote crazy space 1 wrote: Would anyone play eve online if it took 5 months to level up Ammar frigate 5? >.> That was changed after they added in more ships than frigates and cruisers.
crazy space 1 Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic 1094	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:28:00 - [28] - Quote Oro Ossi wrote: My problem is with the SP wasting dropsuit skills The racial light/medium/heavy Dsuit V (rank 10) to train the Dsuit skills, that's like spending 20+ days in EVE training light ship's before you can train for frigate's. Wouldn't be so bad if they wasn't racial skills that's only about 3m wasted SP but you have 12 skills to train that's about 12m SP that does nothing for the game. Who's idea was that ? The weapon skills are not a problem each 1 is different and there's no wasted SP for wasting SP's sake. BUT they all cost the same as they used to..... In the same time you could buff ALL light guns you can now buff one..... They should be new x.5 skills
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Orion Empire 81	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:30:00 - [29] - Quote crazy space 1 wrote: Would anyone play eve online if it took 5 months to level up Ammar frigate 5? Aye. Patience is one thing but the amount of time required is Sisyphean. You can start a new character in EVE and within a week be ready for squad PvP as a noobie tackle. You will die, a lot, but you fulfill a very important role. In like a month you can be in a Drake and be harder to kill and still be a nasty tackler. Hell, start a Caldari and in less than 30 hours you can be able to fly all of the Race's frigates as it only takes like 9 hours to get X Frigate to 3. I am curious if DUST has more sinks than EVE. I wonder what would take longer: getting into a Raven Battleship with decent skills to run level 4 missions or getting into a Caldari Assault Suit with comparable skills. IIRC, I was able to get into Raven in about 4-6 months. <3 CNR. Be well.
crazy space 1 Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic 1094	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:31:00 - [30] - Quote Yani Nabari wrote: crazy space 1 wrote: Would anyone play eve online if it took 5 months to level up Ammar frigate 5? >.> That was changed after they added in more ships than frigates and cruisers. No it didn't, if you had BC 5 and they introduce 8 new ships, you got to have all 8 of ships already at max level on day 1 SAme with frigates, more frigates didn't make it take longer to train them what you smoking....



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