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Mithridates VI
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
972
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Posted - 2013.04.26 05:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Coming into Uprising we're going to see a massive change in the game's approach to skill progression. After the reset on May 6th I don't know how many opportunities there are going to be to change the core skill progression, I feel like at this stage of the game it may be one of the last chances we get to implement this correctly and build a foundation to work upwards and outwards from.
Uprising is almost upon us so it may be that it's too late for this feedback but I'm going to offer it anyway.
I'm a big fan of the risk/reward dynamic which is present in New Eden. I feel that if my opportunity to benefit from a situation increases, so too should what I gamble or put on the line to be eligible for that reward. The current implementation of the skill system (with the existence of passive skills which directly increase hitpoints and damage) seems to me to conflict with this philosophy. I have issues with this system from a couple of different angles.
The first of these is that I believe that lore tends to inform good gameplay mechanics. As a matter of personal preference I take exception to the story of a game being slave to game mechanics where lore-friendly alternatives exist (and are often preferable to me). At a certain point, suspension of disbelief is shattered and the immersion (a key element of the game to me) is ruined.
I believe that in a game where player skill can be augmented by both gear and character skillpoints, that these two types of modifier should govern separate domains. My understanding of the skill progression system is that it's an abstract representation of my mercenary's knowledge and abilities. Logically, my mercenary's ability affects his performance in using gear, the effectiveness of which varies from item to item.
I don't understand the system by which my mercenary's knowledge of firearms increases the maximum range the firearm can reach and would prefer for this to be handled by purchasable gear. I believe that sharpshooter will no longer increase range but have the same issue with it reducing dispersion, unless explicitly told that skilling into sharpshooter actually increases my accuracy, given the perfectly reasonable alternative of making upgrades for the gear with the same effect.
Moving into the second angle from which I disagree with the current system: shifting responsibility for the direct increase of weapon effectiveness into gear rather than into skills better fits the risk/reward philosophy in my opinion.
I can skill into making my militia AR faster, better, stronger. It still costs the same as the militia AR of Joe Newberry so when I am in a battle with Joe, our opportunity for reward is equal (actually, the situation favours me because my identical gun does more damage) but his risk is greater. This doesn't sit well with me. Similarly, I can skill into being "better at shields" or "better at armour" and from an RP perspective, I don't know what the kitten that even means, while from a gameplay balance perspective we've got the same issue that both Mr Newberry and I paid the same amount for our gear... but mine is better.
I would greatly prefer that my mercenary's personal capabilities governed things like base speed (modified by gear weight), reload speed (modified by reload complexity), accuracy (ability to point weapon at the reticle, rather than dispersion of bullets around the reticle)... while gear and modifications to gear (all putting a dent in my wallet and so increasing my risk) governed things like clip size, weapon range, weapon damage, shield/armour effectiveness.
Discuss. We're running out of time to change it if we're not going the right way at present. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
976
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Posted - 2013.04.26 05:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mithridates VI wrote: I don't understand the system by which my mercenary's knowledge of firearms increases the maximum range the firearm can reach and would prefer for this to be handled by purchasable gear. I believe that sharpshooter will no longer increase range but have the same issue with it reducing dispersion, unless explicitly told that skilling into sharpshooter actually increases my accuracy, given the perfectly reasonable alternative of making upgrades for the gear with the same effect.
Moving into the second angle from which I disagree with the current system: shifting responsibility for the direct increase of weapon effectiveness into gear rather than into skills better fits the risk/reward philosophy in my opinion.
I can skill into making my militia AR faster, better, stronger. It still costs the same as the militia AR of Joe Newberry so when I am in a battle with Joe, our opportunity for reward is equal (actually, the situation favours me because my identical gun does more damage) but his risk is greater. This doesn't sit well with me. Similarly, I can skill into being "better at shields" or "better at armour" and from an RP perspective, I don't know what the kitten that even means, while from a gameplay balance perspective we've got the same issue that both Mr Newberry and I paid the same amount for our gear... but mine is better.
I would greatly prefer that my mercenary's personal capabilities governed things like base speed (modified by gear weight), reload speed (modified by reload complexity), accuracy (ability to point weapon at the reticle, rather than dispersion of bullets around the reticle)... while gear and modifications to gear (all putting a dent in my wallet and so increasing my risk) governed things like clip size, weapon range, weapon damage, shield/armour effectiveness.
Discuss. We're running out of time to change it if we're not going the right way at present.
I agree with you, I think that range amplifiers for guns or damage mods should be ISK purchased items, that of course require a skillbook to gain knowledge on their use. As much as I like my Sidearm Sharpshooter, you are correct.
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Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
711
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Posted - 2013.04.26 05:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Agreed, skills should either unlock new gear or help one better apply their abilities (such as better target acquisition) rather than directly affect their survivability or damage output. This would be so much easier if CCP managed to get their weapon customization system together and skills could apply to things like unlocking new scopes/ammo rather than flat out passively increasing range/damage. Benefits to the player performance should come with a price tag.
There are 2 major reasons for this stance:
1) New player with no SP investment vs vet player with max SP investment using the same gear = vet has inherent advantage. That is not cool, especially for a game that is supposed to be pick up and play and something that a new player can compete at if they have adequate player skill.
2) Under current mechanics, vet player with max SP investment using militia weapon vs new player with no SP investment using proto weapon = vet has advantage. Vet, under these circumstances, has less reason to progress beyond low level gear = negative impact on the economy aspect of the game.
Pre-emptive: Just because something is done a certain way in EVE does not mean it's the right way to do things. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
137
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Posted - 2013.04.26 05:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:Pre-emptive: Just because something is done a certain way in EVE does not mean it's the right way to do things. It's still the EVE universe so there has to be a degree of semblance. Also, what you're suggesting almost eliminates the purpose of learning new skills in the first place. The game rewards us for specializing into a specific role that's most comfortable with personal play style. If you take that away, it's nothing but another generic FPS. |
Mithridates VI
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
972
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Posted - 2013.04.26 05:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Tiel Syysch wrote:Pre-emptive: Just because something is done a certain way in EVE does not mean it's the right way to do things. It's still the EVE universe so there has to be a degree of semblance. Also, what you're suggesting almost eliminates the purpose of learning new skills in the first place. The game rewards us for specializing into a specific role that's most comfortable with personal play style. If you take that away, it's nothing but another generic FPS.
You can reward someone for specialising into AR without making the AR inexplicably shoot more damaging bullets by improving the parts of AR operation which are dependent on the operator. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
271
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Posted - 2013.04.26 05:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:Pre-emptive: Just because something is done a certain way in EVE does not mean it's the right way to do things. Thanks for that ^.^
I don't understand why so many want this to be the same game -.- |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
271
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Posted - 2013.04.26 05:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mithridates VI wrote:You can reward someone for specialising into AR without making the AR inexplicably shoot more damaging bullets by improving the parts of AR operation which are dependent on the operator. That sounds good, especially if you can pick up the gun off of some dead merc's body and use it. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
137
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Posted - 2013.04.26 05:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
You guys are going to be in for a rude awakening on the 6th then. Along with skills that add passive bonuses, dropsuits are going to have them too. |
Mithridates VI
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
974
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Posted - 2013.04.26 05:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:You guys are going to be in for a rude awakening on the 6th then. Along with skills that add passive bonuses, dropsuits are going to have them too.
Dropsuits are gear which I have, IMO quite clearly, explained I am perfectly happy with directly increasing survivability.
As far as I can tell, Uprising has fewer skills such as those I'm criticising... but even if not, it would hardly be a "rude awakening". I think you are misusing the idiom. |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
712
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Posted - 2013.04.26 05:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Also, what you're suggesting almost eliminates the purpose of learning new skills in the first place.
Curious to know why you think this almost eliminates the need to skill into anything.
If we had something like:
AR Sharpshooter unlocks access to new scopes that increase a gun's effective range (instead of raw passive range bonus) AR Operation unlocks access to new grips that decrease recoil (instead of a raw passive recoil reduction) AR Proficiency unlocks access to new ammo that increase damage (instead of raw passive damage bonus)
You would still need to skill into things to get the benefits. This just makes it so in order to access those bonuses, there is a cost to the player (other than having to spend SP). It also allows for those benefits to come at some kind of negative (eg. damage bonus ammo giving higher recoil), rather than just more more more.
Cosgar wrote:You guys are going to be in for a rude awakening on the 6th then. Along with skills that add passive bonuses, dropsuits are going to have them too.
Just because things are being done a given way in the next build doesn't mean we have to accept that as the best way to do things. |
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
977
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Posted - 2013.04.26 05:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Tiel Syysch wrote:Pre-emptive: Just because something is done a certain way in EVE does not mean it's the right way to do things. It's still the EVE universe so there has to be a degree of semblance. Also, what you're suggesting almost eliminates the purpose of learning new skills in the first place. The game rewards us for specializing into a specific role that's most comfortable with personal play style. If you take that away, it's nothing but another generic FPS. I know some one already answered your call but I must indulge.
Please, tell me how weaponry is a specializing skill? How is Weapon Upgrade a specializing skill? T They aren't and do not support any niche what so ever. All they do is broaden problems between Low SP players and High Sp Players as well as High Sp Vs Low SP but same gear. Mithridates is right when he talks about making a Militia gun magically more powerful than other militia guns. There is no reason, and it is a threat to the system. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
418
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Posted - 2013.04.26 07:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
0 Try Harder wrote:Tiel Syysch wrote:Pre-emptive: Just because something is done a certain way in EVE does not mean it's the right way to do things. Thanks for that ^.^ I don't understand why so many want this to be the same game -.-
^^ I don't understand why everyone wants yet another generic shooter.
While I agree that many things twitch shooters have done are better than what CCP is doing, retaining the SP reward base is really the only link to EVE you should maintain.
a) If I know how better to wield a weapon, i'll know where to shoot to make that weapon more effective... how to compensate for bullet drop for range, or other things (yes I know there's no bullet drop in the game atm..) but taking examples of how SKILLs with usage of a weapon can affect the things that currently plague it.
What I don't get, is that knowledge of the weapon makes it require less CPU to fit? or Powergrid? If you want familiarity SP skill removed, start with the fitting ones, since they make even less sense. Knowing a weapon, doesn't mean it suddenly uses less resources.
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
977
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Posted - 2013.04.26 07:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:
^^ I don't understand why everyone wants yet another generic shooter.
While I agree that many things twitch shooters have done are better than what CCP is doing, retaining the SP reward base is really the only link to EVE you should maintain.
a) If I know how better to wield a weapon, i'll know where to shoot to make that weapon more effective... how to compensate for bullet drop for range, or other things (yes I know there's no bullet drop in the game atm..) but taking examples of how SKILLs with usage of a weapon can affect the things that currently plague it.
What I don't get, is that knowledge of the weapon makes it require less CPU to fit? or Powergrid? If you want familiarity SP skill removed, start with the fitting ones, since they make even less sense. Knowing a weapon, doesn't mean it suddenly uses less resources.
Those are not excluded:
But just because you know how a gun works doesn't make it more damaging or have longer range.
What is the difference between two identical wounds created by a terrible shooter and a good shooter? There is none. Because it's the same wound yo! |
Mithridates VI
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
1020
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Posted - 2013.04.28 05:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:^^ I don't understand why everyone wants yet another generic shooter. IMO, moving away from gameplay mechanics which are poorly explained in lore is moving away from being a generic shooter. Supporting game immersion is where an MMOFPS should shine.
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
421
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Posted - 2013.04.28 09:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mithridates VI wrote:The Black Jackal wrote:^^ I don't understand why everyone wants yet another generic shooter. IMO, moving away from gameplay mechanics which are poorly explained in lore is moving away from being a generic shooter. Supporting game immersion is where an MMOFPS should shine.
I can somewhat agree to an extent with this statement. (As evidenced by myself being pro TWO MAIN WEAPN as evidenced in my thread.) The one weapon dichotomy is poorly explained in lore, and one aspect where CCP seems to be trying to be different, just to be different. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
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Posted - 2013.04.28 19:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
I thought the point of the passive skills was an RPG element. Does it make sense rationally? Does accruing "Skill points" passively while you sit around make logical sense? Does being able to use "Skill points" gained from doing nothing to magically advance skills of your choice (not necessarily things you use) make sense? I'd assume it's meant to represent the things we spend time learning, only logically we'd need to be choosing those things in advance before we spend the time. We don't because that's inconvenient.
They're shorcuts to represent advancement in the game world. There's a temptation in any game that has a skill-based component to deride anything influencing character ability outside of the skill component, but the RPG-elements exist to represent player advancement outside your ability to twitch your thumbs in concord with the screen movement. Is it fair? I don't know - is it fair in other PvP settings for players to be higher level than you?
I think they already realized players were getting dropped too fast (ergo, removing Weaponry's passive bonuse), but I don't see them completely removing any passive bonuses. They're just shorthand for you being better at things, and sometimes it's hard to represent those things with only equipment-based solutions. As far as we know now, the actual damage boosts will be restricted to Proficiency-level skills. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
193
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Posted - 2013.04.28 20:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:Cosgar wrote:Also, what you're suggesting almost eliminates the purpose of learning new skills in the first place. Curious to know why you think this almost eliminates the need to skill into anything. If we had something like: AR Sharpshooter unlocks access to new scopes that increase a gun's effective range (instead of raw passive range bonus) AR Operation unlocks access to new grips that decrease recoil (instead of a raw passive recoil reduction) AR Proficiency unlocks access to new ammo that increase damage (instead of raw passive damage bonus) You would still need to skill into things to get the benefits. This just makes it so in order to access those bonuses, there is a cost to the player (other than having to spend SP). It also allows for those benefits to come at some kind of negative (eg. damage bonus ammo giving higher recoil), rather than just more more more.
Yeah, I see what you're saying, but the problems would still equate to being the same thing, even if it's justified via an increased monetary risk through use of a weapon attachment or some other medium. You would still have unusually long range, no recoil, and high damage. The problem was the PRESENCE of these bonuses without the mitigation of appropriate balance, not simply how you acquired them.
Tiel Syysch wrote:Cosgar wrote:You guys are going to be in for a rude awakening on the 6th then. Along with skills that add passive bonuses, dropsuits are going to have them too. Just because things are being done a given way in the next build doesn't mean we have to accept that as the best way to do things.
This I agree with. Chromosome's definition of Sharpshooter has broken the game for a lot of people. It's not just with the AR, but with many other weapons. The surprise on a newbro's face, when he sees someone shoot him using the same weapon he has, and he wonders why he can't hit them back... That has just got to stop.
The other passives are likely to be well balanced... *fingers crossed*
My only concern about Uprising is exactly how we're going to iron out all the potential long-term problems with PC. With no PvE (and therefore no production ability) Dust-side, how exactly, are alliances supposed to wage a continuous campaign against whatever alliance emerges dominant after the initial PC gold rush?
Can anyone confirm that we're going live a week after Uprising comes out? Going live without having enough time to test PC is not a good idea... PC is going to be the backbone of Dust... if we go live on 5/14... without having enough data... idk.... and that's my only concern about Uprising.
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Ulysses Knapse
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
332
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Posted - 2013.04.28 20:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
We have skills directly uploaded into our brains, thus passive skilling.
It's in the lore, mate. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
279
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 22:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:0 Try Harder wrote:Tiel Syysch wrote:Pre-emptive: Just because something is done a certain way in EVE does not mean it's the right way to do things. Thanks for that ^.^ I don't understand why so many want this to be the same game -.- ^^ I don't understand why everyone wants yet another generic shooter. I don't. I just don't want lore ******* up gameplay, and whenever there's something that happens in EVE that potentially makes this game worse, some EVE n00b always says the exact same thing.
Just because it's not a generic shooter doesn't mean that it has to have ****** gameplay. EVE isn't a FPS game. Get over it. What works in EVE may not always work in DUST. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
279
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 23:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Some EVE players make me rage xD
That's why I spawn camp CRUs. Some are apparently too stupid to spawn at another location because it's too far from the CRU and they can't get back to their lolcapsule. |
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Mithridates VI
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
1038
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Posted - 2013.04.28 23:04:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:We have skills directly uploaded into our brains, thus passive skilling.
It's in the lore, mate. Is this in response to me?
I understand and don't care where the skills come from, skill in your brain don't make your bullets travel further.
EDIT: Did you just read the subject and respond to that? This isn't a criticism of passive skills as a concept it's a criticism of the execution of passive skills in DUST. |
Avinash Decker
BetaMax. CRONOS.
34
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Posted - 2013.04.28 23:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:We have skills directly uploaded into our brains, thus passive skilling.
It's in the lore, mate.
How does my brain make my bullets go further? We are telepathic !? |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
279
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 23:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mithridates VI wrote:I understand and don't care where the skills come from, skill in your brain don't make your bullets travel further.
EDIT: Did you just read the subject and respond to that? This isn't a criticism of passive skills as a concept it's a criticism of the execution of passive skills in DUST. I found this odd in DUST. When I fit a vehicle, I can put whatever my skills let me put on it. If someone else who has no skills gets into the vehicle, he can drive the same thing even though he has not unlocked anything, nor does he have the PG/CPU to support it.
But this is different with skills like Shield Control. I get a full 25% bonus to the base shields, but when I get out that bonus goes away. This makes no sense to me. Even if everything is in my brain, wouldn't that mean that no one else can use my vehicle because they cannot control it?
I just think it's odd that there is a difference between passive skills that don't make sense in DUST, and skills that modify things that do make sense. If they are going with the version that doesn't make sense, shouldn't it at least apply uniformly??
In EVE I heard you have to click on stuff to target it too, you can't just manually fire missiles and lasers at whatever you're looking at. For firearms, there's no targeting stuff like that. The bullets just straight-up disappear at a certain range. |
slypie11
Planetary Response Organisation
220
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Posted - 2013.04.28 23:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
This thread actually makes sense. Keep the skills that make sense, like reload speed and stamina and stuff, and then let other skills like sharpshooter unlock weapons mods. |
Kieret L'Ren
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.04.28 23:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:it also allows for those benefits to come at some kind of negative (eg. damage bonus ammo giving higher recoil), rather than just more more more.
This reminded me how when I first logged into this game, the big thing missing for me was ammo. It's such a big part of Eve Online and so important to your signature play style. I feel like ammo with bonuses to one aspect such as range that sacrifices other aspects like damage or recoil would add so much strategy and customisation to the game. Since CCP have already gone the direction of the in-depth experience, why not go the whole way?
With that in mind, to the guy who pointed out that in Eve Online we have the same skills so that's why they had to be carried over - in regards to immersion, I always felt those damage bonuses were down to our pilots' expertise and ability to get the most out of a weapon when fitting it to his/her ship. Hard to have the same view here. This is why I think the poster was right who pointed out that those skills should unlock abilities to use certain types of equipment to modify damage. Ammo would be perfect for this.
Would also open up brilliant possibilities like choosing what types of ammo to bring to the battle field, how much of each etc. nanohives could produce ammo based on what you brought with you. |
The Robot Devil
BetaMax. CRONOS.
137
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Posted - 2013.04.29 08:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Tiel Syysch wrote:Pre-emptive: Just because something is done a certain way in EVE does not mean it's the right way to do things. It's still the EVE universe so there has to be a degree of semblance. Also, what you're suggesting almost eliminates the purpose of learning new skills in the first place. The game rewards us for specializing into a specific role that's most comfortable with personal play style. If you take that away, it's nothing but another generic FPS.
What he said. What is the point of skilling up if it does nothing for you? |
Mithridates VI
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
1046
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Posted - 2013.04.29 08:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Cosgar wrote:Tiel Syysch wrote:Pre-emptive: Just because something is done a certain way in EVE does not mean it's the right way to do things. It's still the EVE universe so there has to be a degree of semblance. Also, what you're suggesting almost eliminates the purpose of learning new skills in the first place. The game rewards us for specializing into a specific role that's most comfortable with personal play style. If you take that away, it's nothing but another generic FPS. What he said. What is the point of skilling up if it does nothing for you?
Who is suggesting that it does nothing? |
The Robot Devil
BetaMax. CRONOS.
137
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Posted - 2013.04.29 08:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
Give an AR to a navy seal and then the same gun to a new recruit and you tell me the difference. Put a new pilot in a plane and then an air forced trained top gun and show me the difference. Put me in a f1 race car and then Lewis Hamilton and tell me the difference. The only difference is experience and skill, all other things equal means skill wins. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
987
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Posted - 2013.04.29 16:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Give an AR to a navy seal and then the same gun to a new recruit and you tell me the difference. Put a new pilot in a plane and then an air forced trained top gun and show me the difference. Put me in a f1 race car and then Lewis Hamilton and tell me the difference. The only difference is experience and skill, all other things equal means skill wins. But the skill in that sense isn't the skill points. That's like your FPS skill if they're is such a thing, your ability to point and shoot/play your little videogame. That doesn't =/= SP.
On top of that, if given identical cars, you and Hamilton will go the same speed when floored. The SEAL and recruit will shoot at the same RoF/range. They have the same gun and the same car so why should the stats be any different, just because of SP? Why should an HAV have more armor at no cost other than SP?
Skill isn't Skill Points, otherwise, I'd have Zero SP and all the top shooters would have too much. |
The Robot Devil
BetaMax. CRONOS.
141
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Posted - 2013.04.29 17:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
It's like getting to know your gun. Every merc has the option to learn that skill and invest time into it. The choice to "learn" more is given a value and it allows people to have differences and it makes the game interesting. The whole thread is pointless because this build is dead but I enjoy knowing that I can pop someone when they can't hit me and it makes me want to skill up when the tables are turned. To me, the skill was fun but kind of OP and I will miss the variable range matches if no other mechanism is put in its place. |
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