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AUR Items and The New Eden Economy

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Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2067	Posted - 2013.04.20 23:12:00 - [1] - Quote I'm not gonna lie. This is going to be a complex discussion because of the nature of economics and how confusing it's going to be for players who are coming from other games that don't have their own economy. So let's try to keep this as simple as possible so as to mitigate any confusion among the newbies. Instead of referencing Eve ships as examples, I will reference Dust vehicles for clarity sake. New Eden, as it stands after 10 years of operation, has an economy that is so in depth that it's really difficult to describe other than to say that it's based on the real-world global market... only without the government regulations. Basics To start off, the Eve economy is governed extensively by the laws of supply and demand. This basically means that if the demand for a commodity (example: a tank) is high and the available supply of said commodity is low, then the average price will increase accordingly. If the demand is low and the supply is high, then the price will drop accordingly. The supply will be dependent on the availability of resources needed to produce such a supply (example: mining materials needed to build a tank) while the demand will be dependent on what the buyers intend to achieve with such commodities (example: combat, market manipulation, etc.). That said, the demand for one commodity can also potentially increase the demand for other commodities that complement it. For example, if a tank is in high demand, then the demand for the turrets and related modules will increase accordingly. But those commodities have to come from somewhere. Manufacturers usually consider one of two options. Either mine the materials needed to produce those tanks, or buy the needed materials from someone else who has already mined them for you. Yes, even the materials count as commodities. The availability of these materials is dependent on how much effort the miners put into acquiring them. The more materials mined and made available to the market, the cheaper the price. But then you have to consider how the miners got their equipment. This inevitably leads back to the manufacturer and the miners. It's an endless cycle of production. Clarity As you can see, something has to be given up in order to produce these commodities. What is given up is usually material acquired through a player's effort. This is where things can get sketchy when you introduce AUR items into the market. If a tank is made available on the market that is only produced out of thin air via payment of AUR, then this will undermine the efforts of the manufacturers and miners which is bad for the economy. In Eve, AUR items are only limited to cosmetic things like clothing and monocles which are only produced out of thin air and can later be resold on the open market for ISK. But even then, there is a problem right now with those clothing items. They are indestructible and they never wear out. By that, I mean you don't lose them if your pod gets destroyed of you kept wearing it all year around without a single shower. As a result, when someone buys these items with AUR from the Noble Exchange store, they have essentially added another indestructible commodity to the economy which will only dilute the market with more of such items and will result in prices dropping as demand continues to reduce. The only way to bring the prices back up is if someone buys whole stock piles of them in large enough quantities and basically trashes them (right-click and "trash it") so no one can resell them. Even then, the measure is only temporary because the increase in price will only encourage people to spend AUR to get these items and resell them to take advantage of the price spike and thus result in the price dropping back down again. In Dust, the suits were where and even the AUR weapons and modules are consumable. This means that if you die in battle with it, you don't get it back... ever. This means that demand will remain at a somewhat level pace. But there is one problem with them. Unlike traditional commodities, you are not asked to give up anything consumable like materials and whatnot to create it. This will only undermine the efforts of the manufacturers and miners even though you will one day be able to sell them for ISK. BPOs don't really present any significant problem at all for the economy considering that they are no different than the militia level stuff and the ISK variant militia items are not produced in any way by the players. They are just NPC-provided items. Of course, as the buyers of BPO's become veterans and grow wealthy and trained in the years to come, the veterans will decide to ditch the BPOs and sell them to newbies for ISK assuming the newbies are willing to pay a hefty ISK price. This is no problem for CCP because the company will depend on the veterans for recruiting new players and try to maintain some demand for the BPOs. But in regards to manufacturing and mining, the AUR items do present a major problem for them. Why waste hours of mining and producing if you can just get your credit card and get it instantly? That is the problem AUR items present. One solution to this is to have each AUR item that can be consumed require some material in return. This way, mining can benefit because materials are needed. But this still leaves out the manufacturer. On top of that, this solution will only create more questions such how much material are we talking here. The point of this thread is to help CCP understand how to better prepare the Dust economy how to make it work with these AUR items without hurting the industry aspect of the economy which is the very essence or core of the economy.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3590	Posted - 2013.04.20 23:18:00 - [2] - Quote One little cavat, the clothes are very destructable if put in the cargo bay. It would make sense not to wear clothes in the pod.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2067	Posted - 2013.04.20 23:21:00 - [3] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: One little cavat, the clothes are very destructable if put in the cargo bay. It would make sense not to wear clothes in the pod. Funny, my esquire coat never moved to the cargohold whenever I jumped into the pod. My clothes seem to be water proof.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 517	Posted - 2013.04.20 23:29:00 - [4] - Quote Well if the blueprints begin to work in DUST like they do in EVE, perhaps these AUR BPCs could simply cost nothing (perhaps 5-10AUR, 20AUR for prototype BPCs), but have them require materials too? Just throwing ideas around; I'd say this is worth some discussion.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2067	Posted - 2013.04.20 23:31:00 - [5] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Well if the blueprints begin to work in DUST like they do in EVE, perhaps these AUR BPCs could simply cost nothing (perhaps 5-10AUR, 20AUR for prototype BPCs), but have them require materials too? Just throwing ideas around; I'd say this is worth some discussion. Thank you. I also want us to share ideas on this to see how manufacturers can benefit from this system.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3590	Posted - 2013.04.20 23:36:00 - [6] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: One little cavat, the clothes are very destructable if put in the cargo bay. It would make sense not to wear clothes in the pod. Funny, my esquire coat never moved to the cargohold whenever I jumped into the pod. My clothes seem to be water proof. I am just saying clothes can very well be easily destroyed once placed in the cargo hold. None the less nobody can manufacture clothing right now and as far as it stands it seems ccp wants to avoid expanding avatar game play due to the fact incarna was probably the worst expansion on eve to date. As long as player cannot manufacture the items I wouldn't mind their permanence because they're like buying a name and the 'soul' of the clone you occupy in eve month to month and the right to fly. If Eve where ever to make clothing 'design' possible then I can see the need for all clothing to be destroyable provided they're affordable. While the AUR could continue to buy the original designs to provide altered design copies of to be manufactured but this gets into the issue of pay to earn. Luckily clothing isn't life an death in eve online.
bumm baliste TTCorp 0	Posted - 2013.04.21 03:37:00 - [7] - Quote nice thought but as it stands now and, from what ccp has said, how it will continue to be, is that you have BPOs and BPCs no material is needed to manufacture them as they are pulled from a pool of nanites as they have low material requirements. in the future we might have to supply the nanites as well as the BPCs but then AUR suits will still consume a mined material. we will have to see how CCP intends to do suit production in the future, but for the foreseeable future all items are bought as BPO or BPC and produced on the field.
DeadlyAztec11 One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas 69	Posted - 2013.04.21 04:44:00 - [8] - Quote I still believe that CCP should focus on cosmetic changes instead of skill based items. Keep skill based AUR items but don't make them the focus.
bumm baliste TTCorp 0	Posted - 2013.04.21 06:09:00 - [9] - Quote WTE of the tanks and neo suits aur items will be fine once they can be sold on the open market. Even the neo suits would be fine if the proto suits required level 4. Tho I guess thats a non issue come next build. guess they wanted to make it easier for testing purposes. test successful proto bear is still fail.
Rubico BetaMax. CRONOS. 11	Posted - 2013.04.21 07:07:00 - [10] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: This is where things can get sketchy when you introduce AUR items into the market. If a tank is made available on the market that is only produced out of thin air via payment of AUR, then this will undermine the efforts of the manufacturers and miners which is bad for the economy. In Eve, AUR items are only limited to cosmetic things like clothing and monocles which are only produced out of thin air and can later be resold on the open market for ISK. Incarna items are a relatively underused item in eve, so this is a bad comparison, PLEX is much more analogous, it is consumable(hence destructable) and functions as a conversion from RL money to ISK. This is the funamental genius of PLEX, It is a medium of exchange for people who value thier time more than the price in ISK of plex(and thus will turn RL cash into plex then sell on open market), and those who value the ISK more than thier free time(and thus will buy plex on open market for ingame ISK). This results in a pareto improvement in the eve economy. Those that would not otherwise of coninued thier subscription if plex had been absent will use ISK to fun thier accts. This means more players and more revenue for CCP. Thats why: Maken Tosch wrote: But in regards to manufacturing and mining, the AUR items do present a major problem for them. Why waste hours of mining and producing if you can just get your credit card and get it instantly? This doesnt happen. because the playerbase's preferences will not allow it. A segment of the game will always value thier RL money more than they value the time to earn enough ISK to buy the item on the open market. A good way to look at it is a college kid with too much time on their hands and no cash wont buy those AUR items, but will instead grind. While someone in his 40's making 6 figures wont want to waste his or her time on that grind, and would rather get the shortcut. Which leads into my next point: Maken Tosch wrote: In Dust, the suits we wear and even the AUR weapons and modules we use are consumable. This means that if you die in battle with it, you don't get it back... ever. This means that demand will remain at a somewhat level pace. But there is one problem with them. Unlike traditional commodities, you are not asked to give up anything consumable like materials and whatnot to create it. This will only undermine the efforts of the manufacturers and miners even though you will one day be able to sell them for ISK. What will happen is the same in eve, there will be a 'conversion rate' between AUR and ISK that will be relatively similar across items (due to arbitrage traders) For players who have all necessary skills there will be essentially no difference between an AUR item and an ISK on the player driven market, the player could either buy it with ISK, or convert that ISK into AUR though selling some other good for AUR then use that to buy the item, either way its the same. But what would happen is that for a certain subset of the player base who do not have the proper skills there will be added value to having the AUR items. This is where the primary demand for AUR items and one could envision AUR items being slightly more 'expensive' in ISK due to it. However, manufacturing wont be adversely affected because there will always be a tendency for the price of the ISK good to converge on the AUR good when the exchange rate is taken into account, so there will always be a market for them.

Warpfiend Thanos Destruction Initiative Enterprise 29	Posted - 2013.04.21 07:14:00 - [11] - Quote I understand your view-point Maken but this isn't a real problem. As these are perishable items they will only dilute the market for a single life/death cycle, which has less real effect than any noticeable market manipulation AND this is a known source of disturbance so we can and DO plan for it. Your real worry should be the BPO as they are permanent items and introducing something like this introduces an element that never leaves the market or requires materials to keep in working order (like how a house behaves, it's only permanent as long as you spend resources on maintaining it). But nobody cares about endless supplies of militia items since it's the same as our starting fits. This has no more effect really than letting your younger sibling/friend play on your account while you're at work as long as they keep a positive bank account for games played.
Spec Ops Cipher Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 73	Posted - 2013.04.21 07:58:00 - [12] - Quote How's about this for a quick (I don't play eve) fix. Let the eve players manufacture and build a proto weapon as normal, then instead of selling it to us, they sell it to CCP, or a service that takes the weapon and makes it aurum adv. That way, eve players are still building the aur stuff but for ISK and someone else is adding the aur bonuses. Will this create more problems than it fixes?
Rusticuls ATHEIST's For XENU 16	Posted - 2013.04.21 08:01:00 - [13] - Quote Rubico is right on the mark. Once people can create AUR items and sell them for ISK the market should regulate itself fairly well. I think having an AUR market helps with regulation and preventing EVE corps from getting a crazy stranglehold on the Dust market and crippling the game.
BlG MAMA PLAYSTATION4 53	Posted - 2013.04.21 09:08:00 - [14] - Quote AURUM items need to get out of Dust514 , im dissapointed and i feel lied by CCP " bu bu iz cosmethicsss". F2P with a catch and that is P2W because CCP needs your money , 60$ for the game is not enough , they need more. Can you say : G R E E D ? In EVE, ISK is BOSS , in Dust514 the BOSS is AURUM. AURUM>>>ISK real $$$>>>imaginary currency FACT
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2072	Posted - 2013.04.21 09:19:00 - [15] - Quote @big mama Take your rant somewhere else. This is a thread for sharing ideas on how to help merge the aurum items with the economy properly and hopefully give the members of the CPM something to work with as a blueprint for future iterations. This is a not a thread for rants. Any attempts to derail this thread with rants will result in me asking CCP to lock this thread.
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 477	Posted - 2013.04.21 09:20:00 - [16] - Quote Rusticuls wrote: Rubico is right on the mark. Once people can create AUR items and sell them for ISK the market should regulate itself fairly well. I think having an AUR market helps with regulation and preventing EVE corps from getting a crazy stranglehold on the Dust market and crippling the game. There's no way for players to create AUR items. I don't understand what you mean by AUR market though. Do you mean selling the AUR items on the market for ISK? The demand for AUR items is going to be substantially less than ISK items so they really won't pose a threat to manufacturing. That is assuming these new AUR items aren't going to remain in the game. However If they do remain they could become more desirable than the ISK items and that would be a very, very bad thing.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2567	Posted - 2013.04.21 10:07:00 - [17] - Quote The only problem with AUR items is that at present, some are directly superior to any ISK version of the same item. Until that imbalance is fixed, there will always be problems with AUR items. When it's fixed, there will be no problems. You need to grind to earn ISK, and you need to grind to earn SP that you apply to your skills so you can use the ISK items. If you don't want to grind, and have real money to spare, you can spend some of that real money to get items without needing to grind as much for ISK and/or SP. The items shouldn't have better fitting stats, or better stats for anything else. At the moment, there's a valid argument that a lower-tier player using high-tier AUR gear won't have the fitting skills trained to allow them to create those top-tier fits unless you lower the PG/CPU costs on AUR items, but even that could be circumvented by making fitting skills not apply to AUR items. Then the AUR items can have their fitting stats lined up with maxed fitting skills on the ISK variant, but they don't get better when you train up into those fitting skills, which in turn means they aren't a pay-to-win way to free up more PG/CPU than any ISK-only build can ever manage. And no, saying "they won't be pay-to-win if you can buy for ISK" doesn't work, because if they give a real advantage over "proper" ISK-based purchases, then the in-game economy will revolve around those P2W items instead of manufacturing.
BlG MAMA PLAYSTATION4 53	Posted - 2013.04.21 11:06:00 - [18] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: @big mama Take your rant somewhere else. This is a thread for sharing ideas on how to help merge the aurum items with the economy properly and hopefully give the members of the CPM something to work with as a blueprint for future iterations. This is a not a thread for rants. Any attempts to derail this thread with rants will result in me asking CCP to lock this thread. its not rant , it is a FACT , if you cant face the TRUTH move along
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 477	Posted - 2013.04.21 12:43:00 - [19] - Quote ***I USE THE TERM "GEAR" BECAUSE A LOT OF PLAYERS ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH BLUEPRINTS* Garrett Blacknova wrote:** The only problem with AUR items is that at present, some are directly superior to any ISK version of the same item. Until that imbalance is fixed, there will always be problems with AUR items. When it's fixed, there will be no problems. You need to grind to earn ISK, and you need to grind to earn SP that you apply to your skills so you can use the ISK items. If you don't want to grind, and have real money to spare, you can spend some of that real money to get items without needing to grind as much for ISK and/or SP. The items shouldn't have better fitting stats, or better stats for anything else. At the moment, there's a valid argument that a lower-tier player using high-tier AUR gear won't have the fitting skills trained to allow them to create those top-tier fits unless you lower the PG/CPU costs on AUR items, but even that could be circumvented by making fitting skills not apply to AUR items. Then the AUR items can have their fitting stats lined up with maxed fitting skills on the ISK variant, but they don't get better when you train up into those fitting skills, which in turn means they aren't a pay-to-win way to free up more PG/CPU than any ISK-only build can ever manage. And no, saying "they won't be pay-to-win if you can buy for ISK" doesn't work, because if they give a real advantage over "proper" ISK-based purchases, then the in-game economy will revolve around those P2W items instead of manufacturing. Exactly. I don't want to start another P2W argument here but it this does relate to my overall point I'm trying to make. Yes I think these unbalanced AUR mods need to go but not for the reason as most players. The advantage they offer is not nearly as big as everyone seems to think it is. That little bit of extra damage is not the only reason you died. People have been crying about the damage mods not having a penalty endlessly. Now we find out they were never even broken so what's the excuse for getting killed? I'm just getting tired of hearing the words Pay to Win I guess because none of this stuff is exactly what I would call a "WIn Button". You get a small, but noticeable, advantage. That's it. Everyone needs to stop throwing around these words that aren't really accurate and blaming every death on everything else in the game except themselves. And that is exactly the problem. The AUR items are going to be more expensive than the ISK items obviously. So once a player trains the skills needed for the ISK item they will have no reason to buy the AUR items any more. In addition to the extra cost of the AUR gear by training the skill a player will probably get a bonus to the gear's effectiveness. This means the demand for ISK gear will always be much, much higher than AUR gear which will protect the manufacturers. T he AUR gear is going to be bought almost exclusively by new players which means prices will have to low enough they can afford it. This way players that buy AUR items to resell won't be making gamebreaking amounts of profit from them. The EVE market isn't like a markets you've seen in other games. You don't sell to a bunch of NPC vendors. You don't get any money until another player buys it from you so the price will always be low enough that new players will be willing to buy them since older, more wealthy players will have no interest in purchasing them. However this is where this I start to get worried. This gear with better performance than any ISK gear has the potential to really undermine the games internal economics. I'm going to refer to it as "AUR grade" gear because the advantage you get isn't even close to "P2W" territory. Plus "P2W" has been used incorrectly so much I don't many people even understand what it really means and just use it because everyone else does. So even though the actual advantage of the AUR grade gear is much less then everyone thinks it is you still have the problem that everyone thinks it's amazing and gives you a huge advantage. So now older, wealthier players will feel they have to use the AUR grade gear because everyone else has it. Now the demand shifts to the AUR items that will have to be seeded by the game and can't be manufactured by players. The buyer demographic moves from new players with little money to older players that can afford much higher prices. There's a chance this would lead to huge, unbalanced profits for those players that could afford to spend real money. AUR prices are not dynamic and can't adjust to changing market conditions so massive exploitation and manipulation would inevitably follow. Manufacturing would suffer greatly which would further hurt players unable to pay real money and cause the economy to destabilize even more. I know all this sound like doomsday pessimism but for those of you unfamiliar with New Eden let me promise you that if something can broken or abused it will be exploited by as many people as possible as quickly as possible to the greatest extent possible. Tears are like water to EVE players. Just google "Hulkageddon". Keep in mind there were like 5 of those things over the course of several years and it only fell apart because the player that ran it acted a fool on the forums and got banned. Which was during a massive "protest" in which a large chunk of the players spent days shooting the NPC stations trying to actually blow up EVE Online. That's my real concern about this new direction CCP may or may not be heading. I hope it has all been a mistake though. What do you guys think?
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 107	Posted - 2013.04.21 13:34:00 - [20] - Quote Aur items should drop as loot then there is no pay to win.

Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3598	Posted - 2013.04.21 13:52:00 - [21] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: I still believe that CCP should focus on cosmetic changes instead of skill based items. Keep skill based AUR items but don't make them the focus. Cosmetic items are coming it had to take a bit of new programming to make it possible.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3598	Posted - 2013.04.21 13:54:00 - [22] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Aur items should drop as loot then there is no pay to win. PC will allow AUR items to drop provided they're not blueprints. High sec salvage system will still remain as an injector of officer gear as with faction warfare it would seem for faction gear.
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 208	Posted - 2013.04.21 15:28:00 - [23] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: PC will allow AUR items to drop provided they're not blueprints. High sec salvage system will still remain as an injector of officer gear as with faction warfare it would seem for faction gear. Source for this, or is this just insider knowledge?
trollsroyce Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 303	Posted - 2013.04.21 15:58:00 - [24] - Quote I made a troll thread about this and its impact on economic warfare. Will use this excellent OP to explain the core issue later on. The impact on economic warfare is the biggest immediate issue. P2W is not so much there on individual level but on corporate level, as aurum items allow isk to be used on clone infrastructure in PC. Aurum high end items affect economic warfare. The presence of aurum items as they currently are tells me two things: GÇó Base item industry is negligible, and the only relevant manufacturing dust can have is advanced items, t2, for which there will be no aurum variants. GÇó Dust ISK can only be reliably linked to EVE ISK when the manufactured economy is lifted above aurum item quality. This is the route CCP has to take, if they are not planning to remove aurum items. Limiting aurum items to t1 only is the sole sustainable way to ever introduce production and market link to eve. T2 items could be manufactured by PC research and industrial facilities. Alternatively, even better, they could be made eve side by PI. This way eve would have the only pure industry, dust realistically does not need manufacturing. AURUM items are a fundamental problem for dust economic warfare, as will be seen in the PC soon. Corp whose members use AUR gear where possible will have a big economic advantage by shared ISK wealth. Corporation level aurum purchased PC infrastructure is, what we are really looking at, just through the layer of player economy.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2074	Posted - 2013.04.21 17:38:00 - [25] - Quote @Altina Hulkageddon is a fun pass time. No doubt about it. Thankfully, it can still be hosted and sponsered even if Helicity Boson was banned. Someone else will just pick up the slack. @Trollsroyce I see your point there with manufacturing in Dust. Currently, in a first-person-shooter like Dust, manufacturing is only limited to clone production which will be the primary commodity in Dust. And since you won't be able to buy clones with AUR, the market for clones remains safe. I also like the idea of letting the Eve players do the manufacturing and limiting AUR items to just T1 variants but I see a little problem here. We don't want Eve players completely extorting Dust players knowing how Eve players are when it comes to power and greed. One way to solve that problem is to require the Eve players to work with the Dust players through planetary interaction which has already been established since the Tyrannis expansion. Dust mercs provide the protection and management of the facilities in the districts while Eve players provide way of manufacturing with those facilities. I'll let CCP figure out how to make that work. But overall, we can't ignore the fact that currently the best way to start this off in terms of economics is to possibly require the purchase of AUR to include giving up a certain amount of a specific material so there is some demand for mining. Mining is still something that can be practical in a FPS like Dust since we'll soon be living in districts and have all this open terrain with free time on our hands.
trollsroyce Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 303	Posted - 2013.04.21 18:42:00 - [26] - Quote Even though I've made some joke threads about mining, I think it should be automated and infrastructure based. Mining by strip miner installations, research in installations etc. That works like PI but on dust side. I'd keep dust very simple with active gameplay being "just shoot". All supporting gameplay would be neocom spreadsheets in (optional) merc quarters.
DeadlyAztec11 One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas 73	Posted - 2013.04.21 19:14:00 - [27] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: I still believe that CCP should focus on cosmetic changes instead of skill based items. Keep skill based AUR items but don't make them the focus. Cosmetic items are coming it had to take a bit of new programming to make it possible. I know, I'm just saying that they should try to get most of their money through those items, rather then focusing on skill based AUR items. Understand?
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 107	Posted - 2013.04.21 20:03:00 - [28] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Aur items should drop as loot then there is no pay to win. PC will allow AUR items to drop provided they're not blueprints. High sec salvage system will still remain as an injector of officer gear as with faction warfare it would seem for faction gear. If we can get aur drops in PC then there is no reason to cry. To fix the manufacturing side of things we could have eve NPC corps buy materials from pilots and produce aur items for dust. This way everything comes from somewhere.
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 481	Posted - 2013.04.21 20:41:00 - [29] - Quote The price of AUR items will be constant so I don't see how manufacturing them can work. What if the cost of materials gets too high for anyone to want to mess with it? Not to mention you can't sell anything for AUR so how do you get paid? Iron Wolf Saber wrote: PC will allow AUR items to drop provided they're not blueprints. DId you mean so long as they are not BPO's? Or are you talking about something else?
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2081	Posted - 2013.04.21 21:49:00 - [30] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: The price of AUR items will be constant so I don't see how manufacturing them can work. What if the cost of materials gets too high for anyone to want to mess with it? Not to mention you can't sell anything for AUR so how do you get paid? Iron Wolf Saber wrote: PC will allow AUR items to drop provided they're not blueprints. DId you mean so long as they are not BPO's? Or are you talking about something else? I see what you mean. I completely forgot about that. That just complicates things now.

Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 483	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:02:00 - [31] - Quote And if AUR items are produced by players what if there isn't enough supply to meet demand? Would that mean players paying real money can't buy the gear? Or what about if demand outpaces supply? Do you pay the manufacturer before the sale or after? If it's before that just becomes a free money fountain.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2081	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:28:00 - [32] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: And if AUR items are produced by players what if there isn't enough supply to meet demand? Would that mean players paying real money can't buy the gear? Or what about if demand outpaces supply? Do you pay the manufacturer before the sale or after? If it's before that just becomes a free money fountain. In current New Eden economics, you cannot buy what doesn't exist. The item has to be readily available and the buyer has to have the money at the moment of purchase. Otherwise, you'll just have to wait until supply is restocked. Miners can take advantage of this by selling the special materials to NPC manufacturing corps that will consume the materials and pay the miner in return at a set rate. But then that only opens another problem as made apparent during the famous insurance exploit in Eve where if the value of the ship is less than the insurance payout, then all the buyer needs to do is buy the ship, insure it, and then blow it up to collect on the insurance. This happened when the price of the minerals dropped to levels low enough. CCP's counter to this was to allow the insurance payout to be based on the price of the base minerals needed for manufacturing which is then adjusted at certain intervals so that insurance payouts will never be higher than the value of the ship. CCP can probably take a page from this lesson and apply it here as well. But regardless of how the materials are paid for, that means ISK is generated into the economy rather than transferred from one player to another. And that is another thing to remember about New Eden economics. There are ISK faucets (PvE mission running, killing NPC pirates, etc.) which pump ISK into the economy and there are ISK sinks (taxes, production fees, broker fees, etc.) that draw ISK out of the economy by destroying it. Ideally, it's best to keep it in a way that allows ISK to be transferred from one player to the next. That way, ISK is neither generated nor destroyed. Just transferred from player to player and this is what helps keep the economy balanced. But by being paid by an NPC corp for the minerals, ISK is consequently pumped into the economy and that can cause problems. If you have too much ISK in the economy, the value of the currency lowers and items become more expensive. If you have too little ISK in the economy, the value of the currency increases while the selling price of the items decreases. You have to find a perfect balance between the two. This is where player-to-player transactions help out by keeping the currency circulating as long as possible before it is destroyed while also mitigating new ISK from being generated out of nowhere. This is another part of the AUR economics that has me concerned. Regardless if it's Eve players or Dust players that mine the materials, the ISK is only coming solely from NPC sources.
Rusticuls ATHEIST's For XENU 16	Posted - 2013.04.22 09:14:00 - [33] - Quote What I was getting at was that AUR items should be continued to be for sale from CCP without having any NPC manufacture them but there should also be a way for Corps to create ISK variants of that same gear. So that people who dont want to pay real money for gear would be able to get that gear BUT they would be subject to the market fluctuation. Obviously there should also be a player market in this scenario where people can also sell their gear (bought or salvage) as well. Having a Secondary Market (Player market) helps keep the First Market (Production Market) in check. Having all Dust gear subject to the EVE economy is bad news. Sure it may be fun for EVE players to troll Dust but it's not a good idea for the longevity of the Dust. EVE corps could exploit the market (Monopoly on goods preventing gear from being made) and kill the game and not care because they still have EVE.
Rusticuls ATHEIST's For XENU 16	Posted - 2013.04.22 09:32:00 - [34] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: But by being paid by an NPC corp for the minerals, ISK is consequently pumped into the economy and that can cause problems. If you have too much ISK in the economy, the value of the currency lowers and items become more expensive. If you have too little ISK in the economy, the value of the currency increases while the selling price of the items decreases. You have to find a perfect balance between the two. This is where player-to-player transactions help out by keeping the currency circulating as long as possible before it is destroyed while also mitigating new ISK from being generated out of nowhere. But If CCP has a market of items that they sell for ISK (without mining) aren't they just destroying that ISK? It's not like CCP is buying up gear and hoarding it. CCP can help regulate market forces by selling gear themselves and keep ISK quantities at sustainable levels preventing inflation, right? The Corp production market can then complete with CCP by producing goods (hopefully similar gear but varied in color/design/etc) and trying to sell them for lower than what CCP offers. The Secondary Market can be used for players getting some value out of gear they dont want or need and helps prevent Corps/CCP from selling crummy gear at inflated prices.
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 484	Posted - 2013.04.22 12:51:00 - [35] - Quote Rusticuls wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: But by being paid by an NPC corp for the minerals, ISK is consequently pumped into the economy and that can cause problems. If you have too much ISK in the economy, the value of the currency lowers and items become more expensive. If you have too little ISK in the economy, the value of the currency increases while the selling price of the items decreases. You have to find a perfect balance between the two. This is where player-to-player transactions help out by keeping the currency circulating as long as possible before it is destroyed while also mitigating new ISK from being generated out of nowhere. But If CCP has a market of items that they sell for ISK (without mining) aren't they just destroying that ISK? It's not like CCP is buying up gear and hoarding it. CCP can help regulate market forces by selling gear themselves and keep ISK quantities at sustainable levels preventing inflation, right? The Corp production market can then complete with CCP by producing goods (hopefully similar gear but varied in color/design/etc) and trying to sell them for lower than what CCP offers. The Secondary Market can be used for players getting some value out of gear they dont want or need and helps prevent Corps/CCP from selling crummy gear at inflated prices. You can't do this either. Then when EVE players buy the DUST gear from CCP that ISK will be destroyed and it would screw up EVE. It's a free market so "the State" can't be buying and selling goods and setting prices. CCP doesn't manufacture these items so they don't consume any resources and then the whole thing falls apart. The balance between the value of goods and the value of currency becomes impossible to control. I understand that EVE doesn't have true scarcity in that the amount of minerals is infinite but the rate at which they can be gathered is finite so it works.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3627	Posted - 2013.04.22 12:52:00 - [36] - Quote Well they can only drop in pc provided the other team uses them. PC is looting from the destroyed pool.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2086	Posted - 2013.04.22 13:24:00 - [37] - Quote Rusticuls wrote: But If CCP has a market of items that they sell for ISK (without mining) aren't they just destroying that ISK? It's not like CCP is buying up gear and hoarding it. CCP can help regulate market forces by selling gear themselves and keep ISK quantities at sustainable levels preventing inflation, right? The Corp production market can then complete with CCP by producing goods (hopefully similar gear but varied in color/design/etc) and trying to sell them for lower than what CCP offers. The Secondary Market can be used for players getting some value out of gear they dont want or need and helps prevent Corps/CCP from selling crummy gear at inflated prices. This generates two major problems. If an NPC corp sells items at a set rate then that creates a price ceiling in which players can't sell commodities at a price that is higher than what the NPC sells because then buyers will just focus on buying the goods from the NPC instead when the prices go higher for player-generated commodities. Then there is the impact this will have on industry because if the price of player-generate commodities goes up as a result of increased mineral prices, then the buyers can simply purchase NPC-generated commodities, reprocess (break) them down to the base minerals and sell the minerals for a profit thus undercutting the miners big time. I guess there is no way to keep AUR items balanced with the economy outside the realm of cosmetics. It's just so complicated now that I think about it.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 116	Posted - 2013.04.23 06:12:00 - [38] - Quote What about a simple crafting system. A NPC corp wants to sell an aur item, let's say a complex damage mod, to produce an aur mod the corp would have to buy a player made complex mod and a CPU upgrade mod using monies from taxes. These two items would be bought at the going rate combined and then you have an aur mod. There would be minerals needed from miners, production from manufacturing, tax money spent, player made items destroyed and aur items created. The RL money would pay for the production of the product and everything else would be in game. This could also add micro transactions to the game. Get the modules needed to make an aur item, pay 50 aur and the aur item is yours. ISk could be used to do the "upgrade" and then it would not be p2w. I would like to see a type of crafting/upgrade system for lower tier gear on the PSVITA. Spend some SP on a crafting skill and then buy the gear you want to upgrade. The VITA could have some mini games that upgrades an item if you meet the criteria and destroys them if you fail. Example: I want to upgrade a standard AR to an advanced AR. At level one gunsmithing I would get one advanced AR from a run of 10 if I completed the task. Level three would produce three advanced and level five would produce 5. Failure would destroy all 10.
Rusticuls ATHEIST's For XENU 16	Posted - 2013.04.23 06:56:00 - [39] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: What about a simple crafting system. A NPC corp wants to sell an aur item, let's say a complex damage mod, to produce an aur mod the corp would have to buy a player made complex mod and a CPU upgrade mod using monies from taxes. These two items would be bought at the going rate combined and then you have an aur mod. There would be minerals needed from miners, production from manufacturing, tax money spent, player made items destroyed and aur items created. The RL money would pay for the production of the product and everything else would be in game. This could also add micro transactions to the game. Get the modules needed to make an aur item, pay 50 aur and the aur item is yours. ISk could be used to do the "upgrade" and then it would not be p2w. I would like to see a type of crafting/upgrade system for lower tier gear on the PSVITA. Spend some SP on a crafting skill and then buy the gear you want to upgrade. The VITA could have some mini games that upgrades an item if you meet the criteria and destroys them if you fail. Example: I want to upgrade a standard AR to an advanced AR. At level one gunsmithing I would get one advanced AR from a run of 10 if I completed the task. Level three would produce three advanced and level five would produce 5. Failure would destroy all 10. I love this idea.
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 485	Posted - 2013.04.23 10:16:00 - [40] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: What about a simple crafting system. A NPC corp wants to sell an aur item, let's say a complex damage mod, to produce an aur mod the corp would have to buy a player made complex mod and a CPU upgrade mod using monies from taxes. These two items would be bought at the going rate combined and then you have an aur mod. There would be minerals needed from miners, production from manufacturing, tax money spent, player made items destroyed and aur items created. The RL money would pay for the production of the product and everything else would be in game. This could also add micro transactions to the game. Get the modules needed to make an aur item, pay 50 aur and the aur item is yours. ISk could be used to do the "upgrade" and then it would not be p2w. I would like to see a type of crafting/upgrade system for lower tier gear on the PSVITA. Spend some SP on a crafting skill and then buy the gear you want to upgrade. The VITA could have some mini games that upgrades an item if you meet the criteria and destroys them if you fail. Example: I want to upgrade a standard AR to an advanced AR. At level one gunsmithing I would get one advanced AR from a run of 10 if I completed the task. Level three would produce three advanced and level five would produce 5. Failure would destroy all 10. The NPC corp can't buy the materials. There is no way that can work because the prices fluctuate constantly. In the space of an hour prices can plummet are skyrocket. An NPC corp can't adjust their prices so it just won't work.

The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 120	Posted - 2013.04.23 13:06:00 - [41] - Quote Go the other route and have just have the merc supply the items and then pay aur to upgrade them.
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 486	Posted - 2013.04.23 17:18:00 - [42] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Go the other route and have just have the merc supply the items and then pay aur to upgrade them. The price of materials will still fluctuate. You can't have a dynamic price for materials and a static price for the final product.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 120	Posted - 2013.04.23 17:58:00 - [43] - Quote The static price would only be in aur. The merc buys the damage mod and CPU upgrade and then pays an aur fee to produce the final product. The prices of the modules could change and the aur service charge per item produced would stay the same. The merc then owns the module and can sell it if they want to for ISK.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2098	Posted - 2013.04.23 18:30:00 - [44] - Quote @The Robot Devil So let me get this straight. Please correct me if I misunderstood you. Let me see if I can reiterate what you said in simple steps. 1. Player A wants to get an AUR Complex Damage Mod. 2. Player A goes to primary NPC market to buy one. 3. NPC corp asks player to pay 15 AUR along with 'X' amount of certain materials such as an Enhanced Complex Damage Mod (ISK variant produced by player B) and an Enhanced CPU Upgrade Mod (ISK variant produced by player C). 4. Player A goes to the secondary player market and buys said required items from players B and C. 5. Player A takes the purchased items to NPC corp and submits the materials for production. 6. Depending on player A's standings and invention skills, there is a chance that production of said AUR item will fail or succeed. <------See note 7. If failed, all that will be lost is the materials. If successful, player A will be given the option to pay AUR for the item. 8. If bought, player A can choose to either use the item or sell it in the secondary market for ISK at a rate determined by player-driven market forces thus eliminating the rumors of P2W. Is this what you meant? NOTE: I added #6 because it is based on the concept of invention in Eve Online where players who invent things have certain chances of success or failure depending on their standings with the NPC factory and their invention skills. Additionally, Eve Online players can significantly increase their chances for success by investing in their own private production facility. In the case of Dust, surface infrastructures in districts.
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 488	Posted - 2013.04.23 19:02:00 - [45] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: The static price would only be in aur. The merc buys the damage mod and CPU upgrade and then pays an aur fee to produce the final product. The prices of the modules could change and the aur service charge per item produced would stay the same. The merc then owns the module and can sell it if they want to for ISK. Still won't work. Because the cost of the basic materials will change along with the ISK value of the created AUR item but the AUR cost remains the same then you could have some 30 AUR items that sell for 100,000 ISK and some 30 AUR items that sell for 500,000 ISK. Or 70 AUR items that sell for 2,000 ISK. You'd constantly have massive surpluses and shortages.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2099	Posted - 2013.04.23 19:24:00 - [46] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: The static price would only be in aur. The merc buys the damage mod and CPU upgrade and then pays an aur fee to produce the final product. The prices of the modules could change and the aur service charge per item produced would stay the same. The merc then owns the module and can sell it if they want to for ISK. Still won't work. Because the cost of the basic materials will change along with the ISK value of the created AUR item but the AUR cost remains the same then you could have some 30 AUR items that sell for 100,000 ISK and some 30 AUR items that sell for 500,000 ISK. Or 70 AUR items that sell for 2,000 ISK. You'd constantly have massive surpluses and shortages. Eve Online's PLEX is already like that. You pay $15 for a PLEX that you can buy directly from CCP and sell it for ISK on the market. The ISK price will depend on the available supply of PLEX in the secondary player market. AUR is after all representing real-world currency. So far, the PLEX system has been successful. You can even buy Fanfest tickets with it, donate it for causes, or pay your subscription with it. This way, players will be given two options that in no way undercut the miners or manufacturers. This means the core of the market is safe and benefits everyone including CCP.
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 488	Posted - 2013.04.23 19:42:00 - [47] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Altina McAlterson wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: The static price would only be in aur. The merc buys the damage mod and CPU upgrade and then pays an aur fee to produce the final product. The prices of the modules could change and the aur service charge per item produced would stay the same. The merc then owns the module and can sell it if they want to for ISK. Still won't work. Because the cost of the basic materials will change along with the ISK value of the created AUR item but the AUR cost remains the same then you could have some 30 AUR items that sell for 100,000 ISK and some 30 AUR items that sell for 500,000 ISK. Or 70 AUR items that sell for 2,000 ISK. You'd constantly have massive surpluses and shortages. Eve Online's PLEX is already like that. You pay $15 for a PLEX that you can buy directly from CCP and sell it for ISK on the market. The ISK price will depend on the available supply of PLEX in the secondary player market. AUR is after all representing real-world currency. So far, the PLEX system has been successful. You can even buy Fanfest tickets with it, donate it for causes, or pay your subscription with it. This way, players will be given two options that in no way undercut the miners or manufacturers. This means the core of the market is safe and benefits everyone including CCP. Buying it for a fixed amount of real money and selling for a variable amount of ISK isn't the issue. The problem is when you buy it for a set amount of AUR plus a variable amount of ISK and then try to sell it. Whereas PLEX's value is based solely on the demand for PLEX in this new scenario the cost in ISK of the AUR item will be based not on the demand for that item but on the cost of the materials. This could lead to a high demand item becoming too expensive because the price of the materials goes up.
Cai Mo BioWare Corp 0	Posted - 2013.04.23 20:29:00 - [48] - Quote Most ideas here to balance aurum item price with ISK prices only makes the aurum process more complex, most likely not the intention CCP had. Their vision seems to be that aurum items should save time, so extra conversions or requirements do not help making it more accessible. They don't even need to balance the prices actually, if low aurum prices would make you spend your money instead. For dust mercs it does not really matter if items are build from materials or not, since it is not possible to do any production (yet) anyway. It only means for industrials that they have a competitor that is out of their league, one that can control the markets. For CCP it means another conversion-link to manage between money, aurum and ISK (besides the plex-rate in eve) once the markets are merging. As far as the fear of market manipulations, those will happen, and is a viable tactic in nul-sec warfare, bit more difficult in more secure space due to the size of the markets. Aurum items will also help here in providing a reliable supply (probably in empire space only), and so do all the npc items for now, untill CCP feel secure enough to remove some of them gradually over time as industrials pick up (similar process that happened in space). Last note, as was said on the live-stream as well, aurum should only buy you time (or cosmetics). Meaning all aurum item (besides boosters) must have an isk counterpart for it with the same statistics (except skill requirement), if you do spot an anomaly do report it so it can be fixed.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 122	Posted - 2013.04.24 05:49:00 - [49] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: @The Robot Devil So let me get this straight. Please correct me if I misunderstood you. Let me see if I can reiterate what you said in simple steps. 1. Player A wants to get an AUR Complex Damage Mod. 2. Player A goes to primary NPC market to buy one. 3. NPC corp asks player to pay 15 AUR along with 'X' amount of certain materials such as an Enhanced Complex Damage Mod (ISK variant produced by player B) and an Enhanced CPU Upgrade Mod (ISK variant produced by player C). 4. Player A goes to the secondary player market and buys said required items from players B and C. 5. Player A takes the purchased items to NPC corp and submits the materials for production. 6. Depending on player A's standings and invention skills, there is a chance that production of said AUR item will fail or succeed. <------See note 7. If failed, all that will be lost is the materials. If successful, player A will be given the option to pay AUR for the item. 8. If bought, player A can choose to either use the item or sell it in the secondary market for ISK at a rate determined by player-driven market forces thus eliminating the rumors of P2W. Is this what you meant? NOTE: I added #6 because it is based on the concept of invention in Eve Online where players who invent things have certain chances of success or failure depending on their standings with the NPC factory and their invention skills. Additionally, Eve Online players can significantly increase their chances for success by investing in their own private production facility. In the case of Dust, surface infrastructures in districts. Yes, the prices for modules could move up or down but the aur service fee would be set. I rarely use CPU upgrades or damage mods and if I picked some up for loot/salvage I could seel them for ISK or upgrade them to an aur item for sell or use. I don't want pay to win and I don't want modules made from nothing. If a complex damage mod is in short supply then the price should go up and the price increase may have you sell it as a complex but if the market is flooded then the price would go down and it would make more ISK as an aur item. The point is that the only thing not being supplied the market would be aur.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 122	Posted - 2013.04.24 05:51:00 - [50] - Quote Cai Mo wrote: Most ideas here to balance aurum item price with ISK prices only makes the aurum process more complex, most likely not the intention CCP had. Their vision seems to be that aurum items should save time, so extra conversions or requirements do not help making it more accessible. They don't even need to balance the prices actually, if low aurum prices would make you spend your money instead. For dust mercs it does not really matter if items are build from materials or not, since it is not possible to do any production (yet) anyway. It only means for industrials that they have a competitor that is out of their league, one that can control the markets. For CCP it means another conversion-link to manage between money, aurum and ISK (besides the plex-rate in eve) once the markets are merging. As far as the fear of market manipulations, those will happen, and is a viable tactic in nul-sec warfare, bit more difficult in more secure space due to the size of the markets. Aurum items will also help here in providing a reliable supply (probably in empire space only), and so do all the npc items for now, untill CCP feel secure enough to remove some of them gradually over time as industrials pick up (similar process that happened in space). Last note, as was said on the live-stream as well, aurum should only buy you time (or cosmetics). Meaning all aurum item (besides boosters) must have an isk counterpart for it with the same statistics (except skill requirement), if you do spot an anomaly do report it so it can be fixed.

BlG MAMA Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2013.04.24 10:34:00 - [51] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Cai Mo wrote: Most ideas here to balance aurum item price with ISK prices only makes the aurum process more complex, most likely not the intention CCP had. Their vision seems to be that aurum items should save time, so extra conversions or requirements do not help making it more accessible. They don't even need to balance the prices actually, if low aurum prices would make you spend your money instead. For dust mercs it does not really matter if items are build from materials or not, since it is not possible to do any production (yet) anyway. It only means for industrials that they have a competitor that is out of their league, one that can control the markets. For CCP it means another conversion-link to manage between money, aurum and ISK (besides the plex-rate in eve) once the markets are merging. As far as the fear of market manipulations, those will happen, and is a viable tactic in nul-sec warfare, bit more difficult in more secure space due to the size of the markets. Aurum items will also help here in providing a reliable supply (probably in empire space only), and so do all the npc items for now, untill CCP feel secure enough to remove some of them gradually over time as industrials pick up (similar process that happened in space). Last note, as was said on the live-stream as well, aurum should only buy you time (or cosmetics). Meaning all aurum item (besides boosters) must have an isk counterpart for it with the same statistics (except skill requirement), if you do spot an anomaly do report it so it can be fixed. My problem with the aur modules is that they come from no where. I understand that right now the market is not player driven but when it is will the air price fluctuate with market forces? Let's say the market is live and I am in a system that only has aur complex mods and they are infinite, this would be p2w because the only option is RL money. If the aur mods where based off of regular mods then there would only be be aur mods if regular ISK mods of the same grade where up for sale. The short version- aur mods have to be produced from non aur mods or there will be a time that the only mods available are aur and that means pay to play. fixed
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 123	Posted - 2013.04.24 15:30:00 - [52] - Quote BlG MAMA wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Cai Mo wrote: Most ideas here to balance aurum item price with ISK prices only makes the aurum process more complex, most likely not the intention CCP had. Their vision seems to be that aurum items should save time, so extra conversions or requirements do not help making it more accessible. They don't even need to balance the prices actually, if low aurum prices would make you spend your money instead. For dust mercs it does not really matter if items are build from materials or not, since it is not possible to do any production (yet) anyway. It only means for industrials that they have a competitor that is out of their league, one that can control the markets. For CCP it means another conversion-link to manage between money, aurum and ISK (besides the plex-rate in eve) once the markets are merging. As far as the fear of market manipulations, those will happen, and is a viable tactic in nul-sec warfare, bit more difficult in more secure space due to the size of the markets. Aurum items will also help here in providing a reliable supply (probably in empire space only), and so do all the npc items for now, untill CCP feel secure enough to remove some of them gradually over time as industrials pick up (similar process that happened in space). Last note, as was said on the live-stream as well, aurum should only buy you time (or cosmetics). Meaning all aurum item (besides boosters) must have an isk counterpart for it with the same statistics (except skill requirement), if you do spot an anomaly do report it so it can be fixed. My problem with the aur modules is that they come from no where. I understand that right now the market is not player driven but when it is will the air price fluctuate with market forces? Let's say the market is live and I am in a system that only has aur complex mods and they are infinite, this would be p2w because the only option is RL money. If the aur mods where based off of regular mods then there would only be be aur mods if regular ISK mods of the same grade where up for sale. The short version- aur mods have to be produced from non aur mods or there will be a time that the only mods available are aur and that means pay to play. fixed Same thing in this context. Being in a backwater system unable to buy anything but aur items, sounds like pay to play/win.


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