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Feedback: Ammo in vehicles and installations

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M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 13	Posted - 2013.02.27 15:18:00 - [1] - Quote After reading a few other posts I realized something. Vehicles and installations do not require reloading but have unlimited ammo. While I understand the need to not reload, the concept of unlimited ammo seems... off. Having been in the military, logistics can make or break any battle. Also, no asset either human or mechanical is assumed to have unlimited ammo. Planes have limited ammo and ordinance, same for artillary and armor. Refuel and resupply points are required and often calculated before any assault takes place. For installations, the idea of a ready supply depot or stockpile makes sense and thus near unlimited ammo; however, in regards to vehicles, I believe an ammo supply would enhance the playing dynamic. Foot soldiers currently have limited ammo in regards to swarm missles, grenades, and charges, etc. Once expended a supply depot or nanohive can refill the expended rounds. In contrast, vehicles can stake a position and fire away without concern of ever running out of ammo. Add a limit and suddenly drivers/pilots must be as concerned about resupply as the footsoldier. I don't believe fuel should become an issue as it can be explained through fission/fusion reactors and such. But ammo is still ammo. Existing supply depots and nanohives can refill them same as they do footmen. Future development could see ammo expansion modules enabling larger volumes but reduced speed due to weight. Following similar coding that exists in game for increasing supply and speed reduction from armor plates should quicken coding as well. I ask for this not because I feel vehicles are overpowered, but to give them similar mechanics to the infantry and enhance the realism of Dust. Also, I think this change would enhance tactics and strategy through asset denial becoming an option to change the course of battle and making all players ammo aware.
PAs Capone G I A N T 2	Posted - 2013.02.27 15:47:00 - [2] - Quote +1
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 179	Posted - 2013.02.27 15:58:00 - [3] - Quote Im not against this idea but I'm worried CCP would go overboard and gimp tanks even more with this.
Ruxven ZionTCD Legacy Rising 53	Posted - 2013.02.27 16:06:00 - [4] - Quote I'm in favor of this so missiles can be denerfed. Maybe a new piece of equipment that works like a nanohive, but is only for vehicles and installations?
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 14	Posted - 2013.02.27 16:21:00 - [5] - Quote Ruxven wrote: I'm in favor of this so missiles can be denerfed. Maybe a new piece of equipment that works like a nanohive, but is only for vehicles and installations? I don't think one specific to vehicles/installations is needed. Think of the tech behind the science and making one specific doesn't seem necessary. If anything a vehicle would just deplete a standard hive faster because of the large drain it would require to fill. Think of it as a crew served M256 or M260B versus a squad carried. Both use the same weapon and ammo, but the crew served carries more bullets in his vehicle compared to the man. Also, your squad weapon will reduce the stock, barrel length and weight as much as possible while sacrificing heat dissipation, range, and some accuracy.
Don Von Hulio UnReaL. 97	Posted - 2013.02.27 16:22:00 - [6] - Quote I dont considered the tanks gimped. But, reloading would fit right in with the EvE universe. You have to purchase your ammo and depending on what blaster/laser/projectile/missile turret you have determines how big the clip is. Im sure this is a feature thats already being worked on. With this, we can be able to purchase different ammo types already available in EvE (Anti matter, EM, Plutonium, Iridium, Thorium etc), at least those who use vehicles.
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 14	Posted - 2013.02.27 16:23:00 - [7] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: Im not against this idea but I'm worried CCP would go overboard and gimp tanks even more with this. Trick is to figure what the standard loadout would be for ammo. So long as it isn't too emaciated I think the balance wouldn't be destroyed, only the tactics modified.
Takahiro Kashuken Intara Direct Action Caldari State 103	Posted - 2013.02.27 16:25:00 - [8] - Quote Give me a cargo hold and diff ammo types Then give me the ability to kick out useless gunners so they do not waste my ammo Then give me the ability to be able to fit a tank with no turrets on if i wish to do so Then you can give vehicles ammo
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 403	Posted - 2013.02.27 16:30:00 - [9] - Quote How about a constantly self replenishing pool of ammo. Then they essentially have two different weapon cool-downs to juggle. (A good compromise leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.)
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 14	Posted - 2013.02.27 16:34:00 - [10] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Give me a cargo hold and diff ammo types Then give me the ability to kick out useless gunners so they do not waste my ammo Then give me the ability to be able to fit a tank with no turrets on if i wish to do so Then you can give vehicles ammo I think ammo supplies should be seperate for each turret. Perhaps the smaller turrets drain the supplies of the gunner? Nanite breakdown of ammo into the new weapons? Large turret is based off of driver and supply of the vehicle? I agree the driver should be able to no fit turret slots or replace with ammo, making it so you could equip additional plate or shield could push tanks to being too strong though. Also a thought in regards to technology and modules, a seat/turret yanked for ammo makes more sense... sort of a nanohive module slid into the gap.

Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 13	Posted - 2013.02.27 16:51:00 - [11] - Quote I think the thing to keep in mind is that what you describe requires organization and planning. While I think that this is an awesome idea for Corp battles, it would just add to the chaos of a PUB match where, as we know, organization and communication is somewhat 'limited'.
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 14	Posted - 2013.02.27 17:01:00 - [12] - Quote Canari Elphus wrote: I think the thing to keep in mind is that what you describe requires organization and planning. While I think that this is an awesome idea for Corp battles, it would just add to the chaos of a PUB match where, as we know, organization and communication is somewhat 'limited'. True, but not much beyond what it requires now for anyone who rolls as a heavy or MD and has to think, "Where will I resupply? Do I bring my own or hope someone is nice and drops them." Also, nothing prevents a driver from loading his low slots with hives, dropping them in a safe zone and then remaining mobile while coming back to them to restock. It would also require some thought from high level drivers beyond run and gun with the occassional duck to recharge to now consider ammo just as anyone who pulls out an AV fit must consider it to counteract the vehicle.
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 13	Posted - 2013.02.27 17:23:00 - [13] - Quote M3DIC 2U wrote: Canari Elphus wrote: I think the thing to keep in mind is that what you describe requires organization and planning. While I think that this is an awesome idea for Corp battles, it would just add to the chaos of a PUB match where, as we know, organization and communication is somewhat 'limited'. True, but not much beyond what it requires now for anyone who rolls as a heavy or MD and has to think, "Where will I resupply? Do I bring my own or hope someone is nice and drops them." Also, nothing prevents a driver from loading his low slots with hives, dropping them in a safe zone and then remaining mobile while coming back to them to restock. It would also require some thought from high level drivers beyond run and gun with the occassional duck to recharge to now consider ammo just as anyone who pulls out an AV fit must consider it to counteract the vehicle. Im more considering the turrets than the vehicles. That would apply mostly to HAVs anyway as most LAVs would not survive long enough to waste all of their ammo. From an HAV or DS stand point, I think their biggest complaint will be the random blueberry that jumps on board and wastes their ammo. They already have enough issues with that giving away their position. From a turret standpoint, I think it would be fair to assume that there is some sort of feeder mechanism coming from the major installation. Maybe, as others suggested, having a set on-hand ammo storage that needs time to restock for installation turrets.
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 14	Posted - 2013.02.27 17:32:00 - [14] - Quote I see the point of a randumb destroying your ammo supply. This is why I think the ammo for it should come from them... would also force them out to refill potentially at times too and maybe cause more to carry hives to begin with. As I stated in first post, installations wouldn't need a hive or anything but I do like the idea of a reload or restocking delay for turrets too. In regards to being switching ammo, that might be a topic for its own thread. For now I think just adding the supply dynamic would enhance things.
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 13	Posted - 2013.02.27 17:43:00 - [15] - Quote M3DIC 2U wrote: I see the point of a randumb destroying your ammo supply. This is why I think the ammo for it should come from them... would also force them out to refill potentially at times too and maybe cause more to carry hives to begin with. As I stated in first post, installations wouldn't need a hive or anything but I do like the idea of a reload or restocking delay for turrets too. In regards to being switching ammo, that might be a topic for its own thread. For now I think just adding the supply dynamic would enhance things. There is potential there but I think a lot of it goes with how the game expands. If they go with bigger maps and larger player counts then you could see something like a forward supply depot coming into play. Where HAVs and such could go for resupply and repair and it would also serve as a forward base.
Charlotte O'Dell Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 2	Posted - 2013.02.27 18:47:00 - [16] - Quote +1. But nanohives have to work too and i want diff ammo types
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 14	Posted - 2013.02.27 19:09:00 - [17] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: +1. But nanohives have to work too and i want diff ammo types Think it can be phased in this way: Vehicles: 1. ammo limit and need for resupply. Hives/supply depots work, so same mechanics as restocking infantry, just potential to drain hive quicker. Supply depot radius for vehicles created but only to allow for fill and not force vehicle to ram installation 2. Small turrets are fed by gunner and drain his ammo, not the vehicles. Explained by nano deconstruction fed into vehicle system. 3. Modules to increase ammo storage AND/OR increase via turret skill upgrade (debateable which is better/worse) 4. Different types of ammo similar to EVE are integrated in. Different ammo has different loadout to compensate for type/size/explosive vs capacity of the vehicle (not all ammo is equal). Could be done as seperate purchase or as turrent type via increase in options in marketplace. Potential to have some only obtainable by build through EVE corporations/market ties into existing mechanics of EVE as well. Installations: Blasters: 1. Ammo supply created with limit 2. Restock mechanic/cooldown created to simulate changeout by automatic system within installation. Self contained so no external hives/resupply necessary. 3. Way down road: OMS installations have limited internal resupply and can be filled with logistics vehicle to keep online. Those not brought in maintain infinite capability due to being a more "hardened" resource. Supply Depot: 1. Potential: OMS Supply Depot has limited quantity of nanos thus making it a super huge nanohive vs infinite stream of gear. Base installations again are more "hardened" and thus infinite supply. Would increase reliance on EVE players to utilize resources consumed by DUST counterpart and increase OMS utilization in major corps battles. (Gives 'em something to do and reason to exist beyond Precision Strikes). "We've pushed the frontline and need resupply, drop it here."
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 13	Posted - 2013.02.27 20:15:00 - [18] - Quote I like where you are going with this. I hope that they have much more in terms of game play when we are talking about district control and how the logistics you talk about will play into that. Example. Corp 1 controls the district. They would have the hard installations with the greater ammo that you would expect of an embedded group of soldiers. However, they would have less EVE support as they are meant to hold it without having to full ship support needed in the first place. They are in a defensive situation. Corp 2 has been contracted to take the district. They will have more EVE support in such as being able to drop in temporary installations to points that they select. These will not have the same ammo capacity as the hard ones but being able to put them wherever gives a strategic advantage. The attacking corp will also have access to the mobile supply depots as they push the 'front lines'. I think that this would give more realism as it is an attacking force storming a defended area than just two groups racing for objectives. The defender would start off with the objectives and the attackers job would be to take them.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1087	Posted - 2013.02.27 20:28:00 - [19] - Quote Ammo for vehicles/installations seems obvious. It's almost always a good thing to have more depth to combat, and giving limited ammunition such that logistics, making your shots count, and so on, become a part of the experience.
Mithridates VI New Eden Research Foundation 188	Posted - 2013.02.27 20:30:00 - [20] - Quote I would love to see Logis carting ammo to vehicles, then back to the supply depot for a restock, like the replacement of ammo in the last stand of Zion in the Matrix.

Jax Saurian GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 19	Posted - 2013.02.27 23:46:00 - [21] - Quote This makes a lot of sense and provide realistic battle situations and help balance out tanks for those who believe they are OP but tanks should hold a large amount of ammo and should take it's time before running out especially the small turrets as the small turrets have terrible accuracy
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 18	Posted - 2013.02.28 14:49:00 - [22] - Quote Which makes more sense? A: small turrets are supplied by the tank B: small turrets are supplied by the gunners loadout Main turret is supplied by the vehicle... no debate here.
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 14	Posted - 2013.02.28 16:22:00 - [23] - Quote M3DIC 2U wrote: Which makes more sense? A: small turrets are supplied by the tank B: small turrets are supplied by the gunners loadout Main turret is supplied by the vehicle... no debate here. The only issue with the small turrets being supplied by the person who is in them is there would need to be a conversion done between what the person has on their fitting and the actual turret itself. How would you work it if the small turret is a railgun and the person manning it is a sniper? The sniper rounds would be gone in the first burst if it was a 1/1 ratio.
Raze galder Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 29	Posted - 2013.02.28 17:33:00 - [24] - Quote How about they have an ammo slot where the can put an ammo module that has a maximum ammo count . You have a a slider bar for each type of weapon on the tank or drop ship. U can then slide the bar to determine the amount of ammo u want each weapon to have out of the max ammo pool. Its shared so say u have 300 ammo and u give the main gun 50 shots and the 2 small turrets 125 each u can't give more ammo to one of the other weapons without reducing it from the other.
Goric Rumis Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 84	Posted - 2013.02.28 20:13:00 - [25] - Quote I think the idea is to have expendable ammo eventually, just like you have it in EVE, where you have to buy and equip and keep ammo stocked. But I think for the time being it would be nice just to have a supply of free ammo, just like hand-held weapons, that has to be restocked from time to time. I like the idea that this would help balance missiles by giving them comparatively less max ammo, so they'd have to restock more often. In the final system it should more or less resemble grenades, where you can own and equip as much ammo as you want but your fit can only carry so much at a time, so you still need to go back and restock periodically. Otherwise, if you're carrying 15,000 rounds and your tank gets destroyed, why wouldn't you lose all your ammo? Canari Elphus wrote: M3DIC 2U wrote: Which makes more sense? A: small turrets are supplied by the tank B: small turrets are supplied by the gunners loadout Main turret is supplied by the vehicle... no debate here. The only issue with the small turrets being supplied by the person who is in them is there would need to be a conversion done between what the person has on their fitting and the actual turret itself. How would you work it if the small turret is a railgun and the person manning it is a sniper? The sniper rounds would be gone in the first burst if it was a 1/1 ratio. I think the idea is that the gunner would be equipped with a "gunner" dropsuit and loadout, so that it would be dependent on the gunner to equip the right kind of ammo. I don't think this makes sense ultimately, though. You'd have to prepare a different gunner outfit for each type of ammo (say there is one type that's effective against shields and one effective against armor), for each type of turret (rail, missile, blaster). So you'd need six different outfits, and you'd have to select the right one to go with the tank you're jumping into. Whereas the person who owns the tank knows at least what kind of turret is fitted. If you're talking about it taking the small arms ammo from the gunner (like Canari is thinking), I don't see any point in trying to take that route. EDIT: Also wanted to say that this should not be used to "gimp" tanks. It should be used to balance turrets. So, for example, missile turrets can be made more effective, but with limited max ammo. As someone else has suggested in this thread. Mithridates VI wrote: I would love to see Logis carting ammo to vehicles, then back to the supply depot for a restock, like the replacement of ammo in the last stand of Zion in the Matrix. I'd love to see logis more involved in the upkeep of vehicles overall. This would be great.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 279	Posted - 2013.02.28 21:35:00 - [26] - Quote I like to think tanks have built in nanohives.
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 20	Posted - 2013.02.28 22:26:00 - [27] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: I like to think tanks have built in nanohives. But even nanohives run out eventually


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