What about making the thale charge and only lowering it to around 300?

They are rare now becaue we have no market.

How much would you pay for ine of those weapons? Because come the market they will be nowhere as rare as they are now...

The rate of officer drops in dust is probably orders of magnitude higher than in dust oncenthe market goes live and we can sell them... they will be more available than everyone is thinking.

Its gonna be scary knowing that pepple can buy them in bulk and murder death kill at the rate they'll be able to aquire them.

CCP should really look at this. The Thale's should not do 114 more damage than the Prototype Sniper Rifle when all the other Officer weapons are only slightly better than their Prototype counterparts.

actually those extra 1-4 points in damage are devastating when the guy you are aiming at gets hit around 5-10 times a second, that's why many use geks despite only technically doing slightly more damage then it's standard counterparts the rof is immense and that extra damage gets stacked very quickly.

going off of that the thale's (as a sniper)is still a single fire precision weapon and doesn't quite have that stacking ability (not saying you can't shoot someone twice it just takes longer to get a second shot off) that is most likely why the damage is so high.

feel free to correct me on anything you feel I was wrong on this is just my opinion and i'm not against having a conversation on it.

The difference between all the Officer weapons (except the Thale's) and their Prototype counterparts is minimal. Take the HMG for example. On a 500 HP target you only get a 2-3 bullet difference when using the Officer weapon instead of the Prototype. The same with the others.

The Thale's on the other hand is so much better than the Prototype. It's able to put out about 500 damage per shot if using damage mods (stacking penalty or not), which means it'll be able to 1-shot a lot of non-heavies, and 2-shot some heavies. The Prototype Sniper is only able to put out about 300 damage.

When saying the Thale's has high damage because it's hard to shoot someone twice (which it isn't btw), then the same would be applied to all the other Snipers, but it isn't because they would then be OP.

as I said the few points in damage the other officer weapons have goes a long way along with their other benefits your example on the officer hmg is one of these as the rof on a hmg (and other weapons such as the smg and AR) is very high and the damage is multiplied very quickly.

the officer's weapons are all about making a presence on the battlefield and the damage they do gives a feeling of 'what the hell is that' when used against you another weapon that has a sizable increase is the officer's forge gun and let me tell you after having been hit by one when I had my reps and hardeners on it still did a 'oh balls' amount of damage.

the thales is not impossible to survive a shot from the thale's but it is for most a one shot weapon as they are using A:damage mods and little protection or B:don't have the skills,and by extension the mods, to survive a shot from the weapon.

also I'm not saying that it is hard to shoot someone twice with the thale's just that there is a stopping time between shots as it is a 'normal' sniper and not a tactical (could you imagine an officer's version of the tactical would have like 250 damage at the base*shudders*) so that may be why the damage is so high ,mind you the damage seems to have taken a bit of a buff for some reason (or perhaps was that way before and I didn't notice) and a slight decrease may be in order perhaps 300-310 but nothing crippling as it still needs that 'oh balls' factor on the battlefield.

About SMG:
Point of officer weapon here is not much more dmg (but it is huge anyway) but CPU/PG usage.

Back to all officers weapons, not only dmg is important. So anyway they are balanced/designed in more ways then you point.

For thale I ask always for OB - solved, no more free k/d boost. .

Using the ARs as the baseline for damage I have found this:

Duvolle: 25575 Damage per minute
Balac: 30680 Damage per minute
Difference: 5105 Damage per minute
Percent increase from Duvolle to Balac: 20%

Duvolle: 2046 Damage per clip
Krin: 3069 Damage per clip
Difference: 1023 Damage per clip
Percent increase from Duvolle to Krin: 50%

Ishukone: 209 Damage per shot
Thales: 323 Damage per shot
Difference: 114 Damage per shot
Percent Increase from Ishukone to Thale: 55%

As it is the Thale is slightly above the damage percentage of the Krin assault rifle.
If the Thale was brought in line with the 20% increase of the Balac it would do 250 Damage per shot but would need to be given another round(total of six instead of 5).


TL;DR
The Thale is in line with the damage increase of the Krin but isn't to the Balac. To put it in line with the Balac the Thale would need to be 250 damage per shot.

What about making the thale charge and only lowering it to around 300?

The Officer Forge Gun does the same damage as the Prototype Forge Gun, and less damage than the Prototype Assault Forge Gun. It does, however, have a bigger clip and lower charge time.

Again, why don't the other regular Sniper Rifles do more damage then? Simply because they would be OP, so there's absolutely no reason as to why the Thale's should be doing 114 more damage than the Prototype Sniper Rifle. It just seems like they forgot the Thale's when they flattened the damage of all the weapons, because the other Officer Sniper Rifle, the Balac's, has the correct damage (19 more than the Prototype).

The Thale's needs to be lowered to 230-240 damage.

No. I strongly disagree. The Thale's is the only sniper rifle that does what it does, and it's good at it.
There is no fear factor if the damage is lowered that much.
I got my first and ONLY pack of Thale's EVER, just last night, and I've played a LOT of Dust. 3 straight builds, and I got my first set of Thale's last night.
No. Thale's are RARE.
The performance is flawless. I'm going to hate when the damage mods are "fixed", because running quad-damage mods with a Thale's is an extremely HARD-EARNED 1-shot kill on most enemies. You'll still need 2 or 3 shots to kill a heavy.

Sniper's work hard to earn their Thale's. When they get it, it MUST be capable of 1-shot ****.
Comparing the Forge Gun with the Thale's is not possible.
We're talking a weapon that kills armor and infantry alike vs. a weapon that is anti-infantry only.

Even when the market opens up, they will eventually become rare again. The supply of Thale's will NOT meet the demand.

Don't tell me, I have to work hard to spec up to use the best sniper rifle in the game, which is already hard enough to come by, just to tell me, "surprise! it's not much stronger than the other rifle you were using."

It's purpose IS to make you shudder. It IS supposed to be OP. When you see one killing you in a match, you're not supposed to have a chance to get to cover. The sniper using it, is not supposed to be a sniper where you can say, "well i'll just flank him. stupid sniper. if i get hit, ill just take cover and rep." No. Just no.

It's fine to do that with any other SR, but not Thale's. No.

(Prototype) Ishukone Sniper Rifle - 209 damage, 93 CPU, 14 PG.
(Officer) Thale's TAR-07 Sniper Rifle - 323 damage, 51 CPU, 7 PG.
(Officer, Tournament) Balac's N-17 Sniper Rifle - 228 damage, 51 CPU, 7 PG.

I don't have the Officer Scramber Pistol (if there is one), so I don't have the numbers on that one.

The first thing that springs to mind is the fact that the Thale's Sniper Rifle has 114 more damage than the Prototype Sniper Rifle, whereas all the other Officer weapons only get slightly more damage (or in the case with the Forge Gun, less charge-up time and bigger clip size) and a couple of weapons get a couple of extra small bonuses over the Prototype weapons.

Either the Thale's needs to have it's damage brought way down to about 230-240 damage or all the other Officer weapons need to get a lot better than they currently are to better match the Thale's Sniper Rifle. This way it better matches the other Officer weapons, and matches especially the other Officer Sniper Rifle better.

Firstly, I personally don't think there needs to be any adjustment to the Thales, though, having said that I may be biased somewhat being a sniper. I think that there are obviously devastating effects currently due to the fact that most people are running standard and advanced suits, which will not be the case 6 months down the line, so any adjustment I think is a bit premature.

Secondly, given the above point, I agree that there is a HUGE disparity between the prototype and the officer, and barely anything between standard and prototype. I think that the the way this needs to be fixed is changes to the other rifles. The prototype sniper needs a buff, the militia sniper needs a nerf, and the advanced is at about a median level. I think this would solve many issues around the redline sniping and improve the importance of a specialised sniper.

Yeah we agree on the huge difference between the Prototype and Officer Sniper Rifle (Thale's, not Balac's). The reason for the small difference from the Militia/Standard to Prototype is the damage flattening that happened a while back. There's basically a 5% damage increase between the tiers of all the weapons (so not just the Sniper Rifles). Therefore this won't change with just the Sniper Rifles, so the difference between the Standard and Prototype stays the same.

Therefore the Thale's needs to be brought down to balance it.

Ahh.. well I'm not quite sure that there should be a sliding scale for all weapons, but that aside I don't think you can accurately determine whether the Thales is OP unless you're testing it on vk.1 suits, for the sake of comparing oranges and oranges. 2-3 shots on a vk.1 assault would render it balanced... if other officer weapons are not behaving in a similar efficiency to their level as in previous levels maybe its time to consider a buff for the other officer weapons.

In my experience with the thales, it 1 shots basically all standard suits with the exception of the heavy which is a 2 shot, and depending on the fit of an advanced suit will generally 2 shot with an occasional 1 shot. I've not tried it extensively against the proto suits as not many people wear them frequently but that is the standard they should be judged to.

Django Quik said it nicely in the post just above.

You don't even need to "test" it as you can easily see it just from numbers. No matter how you put it the Thale's will at maximum be 2-shotting ANY non-heavy regardless of fitting and actually also be 2-shotting most heavies as it is right now.

You can actually 2-shot any non-heavy without using 2-3 damage mods as well. 1 is plenty for that job. Using more than 1 is just to 1-shot more people which is lame by itself, and then of course also to make sure you can 2-shot heavies.

If you call 2-shotting a vk.1 assault suit with health mods in all the slots balanced I don't know what to say. For information I can say that with a full health mod fit plus level 5 in the skills that give you 25% more shields and armor, a vk.1 assault will have just above 1k HP. And he gets 2-shotted...

For that exact reason the Thale's needs to be brought down, and not a buff to all the other Officer weapons.

That would in my opinion be fairly balanced. It would in that case be able to 1-shot a lot of low-end suits, 2-shot many high-end suits with few health mods, 3-shot high-end suits with many health mods and 3 to 4-shot any heavy.

lets put this in context for a second, this is the highest tier weapon currently attainable... 2-3 shotting the upper echelon of players with defensive skills is what it should be able to do. With absolutely MAXED damage skills and 2 complex damage mods, the Thales does either ~468 or ~495 damage... depending on how the damage stacking is calculated. I'm leaning to the 468 damage being the most likely (the sum of the damage bonuses as a multiplier as opposed to each damage bonus stacking on one another). Without knowing what the exact EHP of a fully tanked vk1 suit is, it appears that this suits the scenario you envisioned....

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. If you have Weaponry 5 and Proficiency 5 the damage is 323 * 1.1 * 1.15 and not 323 * 1.25.

As it stands now. I have a strongly held viewpoint that ARs need to be nerfed.
I find it ridiculous that the Officer ARs get 72 and 90 round clips.

Clip size as big as an SMG?

I've never used the Thale's, but it's a beast weapon, and the requirements for it's use match it's performance... You're not going to have noobs running around with Thale's. As it should be.

In this recent corp match against STB, I was running a Genesis Sniper Rifle, with triple damage mods, and it still took 3 rounds to down one of their assaults.
With my setup, on average i need 3 rounds to down a HEAVY. Not an assault. 1 round for noobs and scouts. 2 rounds for assaults and logis.

The Thale's is the ONLY sniper rifle with guaranteed stopping power vs. everyone. How rare it is, ensures that it cannot be spammed and abused (i've never EVER gotten one).
It's probably the only real treat that sniper's get. I would not like to see a damage nerf on it.

What I CAN agree to is damage reduction in OTHER snipers in favor of larger clip size, and much enhanced RoF. (The details of which would have to be hashed out.)

lets put this in context for a second, this is the highest tier weapon currently attainable... 2-3 shotting the upper echelon of players with defensive skills is what it should be able to do. With absolutely MAXED damage skills and 2 complex damage mods, the Thales does either ~468 or ~495 damage... depending on how the damage stacking is calculated. I'm leaning to the 468 damage being the most likely (the sum of the damage bonuses as a multiplier as opposed to each damage bonus stacking on one another). Without knowing what the exact EHP of a fully tanked vk1 suit is, it appears that this suits the scenario you envisioned....

This.
The best sniper rifle in the game essentially negates the best shields/armour, turning your proto fits into militia fits. Whats the problem?

You can hide behind the redline and get a lot of kills with no deaths using a thales..AR has to be in the actual battlefield yet you want those nerfed? I disagree with you

Two troll posts in a row, you just won't stop?

If there's 100 people in a corp and all have 20 Thale's that's 2000 in total. Give those to the few snipers in your corp and they'll have several hundred each. If you say that's not a lot GTFO.

Also just because one guy has more Thale's than you does not mean there's an issue with rarity. Maybe you've just been unlucky and been getting other stuff or whatever.

I never said the other Officer weapons weren't better than the Prototypes. Stop reading what you want and read what I write. The other Officer weapons are only slightly better than the Prototypes, and aren't an easy win button like the Thale's. Except for maybe the Forge Gun since it's able to dish out 13-14k damage in less than ten seconds due to both lower charge time and a bigger clip.

A Thale's is not supposed to be able to 1-shot nearly every non-heavy. That's what you want it to be like, but if you can't see past your own nose STFU. Having it being able to do that is seriously gamebreaking in high-end matches. Especially considering the almost half CPU and PG requirements of the Prototype, which means the sniper is also able to fit a lot of other stuff as well.

As it stands now. I have a strongly held viewpoint that ARs need to be nerfed.
I find it ridiculous that the Officer ARs get 72 and 90 round clips.

Clip size as big as an SMG?

I've never used the Thale's, but it's a beast weapon, and the requirements for it's use match it's performance... You're not going to have noobs running around with Thale's. As it should be.

In this recent corp match against STB, I was running a Genesis Sniper Rifle, with triple damage mods, and it still took 3 rounds to down one of their assaults.
With my setup, on average i need 3 rounds to down a HEAVY. Not an assault. 1 round for noobs and scouts. 2 rounds for assaults and logis.

The Thale's is the ONLY sniper rifle with guaranteed stopping power vs. everyone. How rare it is, ensures that it cannot be spammed and abused (i've never EVER gotten one).
It's probably the only real treat that sniper's get. I would not like to see a damage nerf on it.

What I CAN agree to is damage reduction in OTHER snipers in favor of larger clip size, and much enhanced RoF. (The details of which would have to be hashed out.)

You do realize how rare the officer weapons are right?

If you lose that gun in a suit that could be blown up by any stray powerful shot, nade, rail gun, heavy blaster, you lose at least a million if not more.

Officer weapons may not be as rare here than in eve ( have never looted a officer just faction), but still they are not that common, and cannot be purchased or made.

240 damage Thale with a 6/7 shot clip is where I'd have it.

I'll quote Trollsroyce, the guy that's probably spent the most time with the Thale's this build, because that's also what I want the Thale's to be fixed to (because it's broken right now).


240 damage would be a little under 400 damage with Weaponry 5, Proficiency 5 and some damage mods which would be a perfect value in my opinion.

@Jathaniel

i agree that the Thale should stay the ultimate, nigh unbeatable Sniper, as should all the officer toys, since they are [supposedly] the strongeest, hardest to get guns in the game at the moment, but that could always change. meaning varying levels of officer weaponry to collect.

yes, a Thale should be able to take out a Proto Assault VK.1 with maybe two shots, at least. and a headshot? please, that should make their heads explode in a beautiful shower of blood. just as Wolfman's Pistol should be able to take down a heavy with only a few well placed shots. or a Balac AR should be able to rip through a squad of unprepared souls.

we are talking BEST of THE BEST guns here, i will admit some of the ones aside from snipers need a slight boost, if they are going to be the ultimate edge. and there is always a way to take someone down, just find it.... just like you should find that Thale sniper sitting way off in tthe distance

very true, no one is looking at the premise of this game, and that is risk/reward by knowing how to maximize the minimum.

and when you learn that... things like the Thale, or Balac toys seem... boring i would think

but i think the other OFC ones do need a boost, and hell, eventually there might be OFC suits too, so nerfing what is good now only hurts the future for us.

think of what can be improved and tweaked, not just flat out nerfed

Touch the Thale and I'll cut you!

If you are constantly getting Sniped and 1- shot, then just call in your free LAV to move across the open field. Dont blame the sniper or the rifle because you watch an ally die from one shot and then think you are safe to run to the same spot. Most good players will not die that often from a Thales, as they know where most enemy snipers will be sitting and can easily avoid them. I sat in a pub match with a Thales rifle, and killed 15 red dots in the same spot, at the beginning of the match. I think the biggest nerf to snipping will come when the matchmaking will be fixed, and skilled players are pitted against each other.

I guess my point is, if i sit in one spot and get 40+ kills with a thales, is that the rifles fault or the random red dots that keep running into the open?

Touch the Thale and I'll cut you!