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Jathniel
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39
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Posted - 2013.02.21 20:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
As it stands now. I have a strongly held viewpoint that ARs need to be nerfed. I find it ridiculous that the Officer ARs get 72 and 90 round clips.
Clip size as big as an SMG?
I've never used the Thale's, but it's a beast weapon, and the requirements for it's use match it's performance... You're not going to have noobs running around with Thale's. As it should be.
In this recent corp match against STB, I was running a Genesis Sniper Rifle, with triple damage mods, and it still took 3 rounds to down one of their assaults. With my setup, on average i need 3 rounds to down a HEAVY. Not an assault. 1 round for noobs and scouts. 2 rounds for assaults and logis.
The Thale's is the ONLY sniper rifle with guaranteed stopping power vs. everyone. How rare it is, ensures that it cannot be spammed and abused (i've never EVER gotten one). It's probably the only real treat that sniper's get. I would not like to see a damage nerf on it.
What I CAN agree to is damage reduction in OTHER snipers in favor of larger clip size, and much enhanced RoF. (The details of which would have to be hashed out.) |
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.02.21 20:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hm. Good point on availability after the market opens.
How about item specific drop rates instead of a global drop rate reduction?
Easier to get all but the very best Officer weapons.
This way, the weapon maintains potency, but we don't see abuse. |
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.03.06 22:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:as I said the few points in damage the other officer weapons have goes a long way along with their other benefits your example on the officer hmg is one of these as the rof on a hmg (and other weapons such as the smg and AR) is very high and the damage is multiplied very quickly.
the officer's weapons are all about making a presence on the battlefield and the damage they do gives a feeling of 'what the hell is that' when used against you another weapon that has a sizable increase is the officer's forge gun and let me tell you after having been hit by one when I had my reps and hardeners on it still did a 'oh balls' amount of damage.
the thales is not impossible to survive a shot from the thale's but it is for most a one shot weapon as they are using A:damage mods and little protection or B:don't have the skills,and by extension the mods, to survive a shot from the weapon.
also I'm not saying that it is hard to shoot someone twice with the thale's just that there is a stopping time between shots as it is a 'normal' sniper and not a tactical (could you imagine an officer's version of the tactical would have like 250 damage at the base*shudders*) so that may be why the damage is so high ,mind you the damage seems to have taken a bit of a buff for some reason (or perhaps was that way before and I didn't notice) and a slight decrease may be in order perhaps 300-310 but nothing crippling as it still needs that 'oh balls' factor on the battlefield. The Officer Forge Gun does the same damage as the Prototype Forge Gun, and less damage than the Prototype Assault Forge Gun. It does, however, have a bigger clip and lower charge time. Again, why don't the other regular Sniper Rifles do more damage then? Simply because they would be OP, so there's absolutely no reason as to why the Thale's should be doing 114 more damage than the Prototype Sniper Rifle. It just seems like they forgot the Thale's when they flattened the damage of all the weapons, because the other Officer Sniper Rifle, the Balac's, has the correct damage (19 more than the Prototype). The Thale's needs to be lowered to 230-240 damage.
No. I strongly disagree. The Thale's is the only sniper rifle that does what it does, and it's good at it. There is no fear factor if the damage is lowered that much. I got my first and ONLY pack of Thale's EVER, just last night, and I've played a LOT of Dust. 3 straight builds, and I got my first set of Thale's last night. No. Thale's are RARE. The performance is flawless. I'm going to hate when the damage mods are "fixed", because running quad-damage mods with a Thale's is an extremely HARD-EARNED 1-shot kill on most enemies. You'll still need 2 or 3 shots to kill a heavy.
Sniper's work hard to earn their Thale's. When they get it, it MUST be capable of 1-shot ****. Comparing the Forge Gun with the Thale's is not possible. We're talking a weapon that kills armor and infantry alike vs. a weapon that is anti-infantry only.
Even when the market opens up, they will eventually become rare again. The supply of Thale's will NOT meet the demand.
Don't tell me, I have to work hard to spec up to use the best sniper rifle in the game, which is already hard enough to come by, just to tell me, "surprise! it's not much stronger than the other rifle you were using."
It's purpose IS to make you shudder. It IS supposed to be OP. When you see one killing you in a match, you're not supposed to have a chance to get to cover. The sniper using it, is not supposed to be a sniper where you can say, "well i'll just flank him. stupid sniper. if i get hit, ill just take cover and rep." No. Just no.
It's fine to do that with any other SR, but not Thale's. No. |
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.03.06 23:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
(Hm. You seemed reasonable enough to deal with a contrary viewpoint before.) Getting 10, 20, 30 thales translates into getting a pack of thale's 1, 2, or 3 times.
Considering how long people have played the game, that is NOT a lot. For me that translates into, "I got a Thale's ONCE after a period of several months." For those other's you mentioned, that means they got it 2 or 3 times in a period of several months. If one individual is getting 30 Thale's per week... then you have issues with rarity.
No one, is getting any officer weapon at that rate. As I said, supply will not keep up with demand when the player trading opens up, with these current rates.
I have 20 Krin's ARs. is that a lot? no. That means, in all my time playing, I've technically, only got them twice.
Have you used a Balac's AR? Have you seen how quickly they chew up heavies? If you're not seeing a difference between the weapon you usually use, and the performance of your officer's weapon, then you're either doing something really really right, or doing something really really wrong.
A Thale's is OP, for the purpose that it serves. It's a sniper's weapon. Sniping is "easy", as you so blatantly insinuate. A Thale's used from the red line, or anywhere else for that matter, that connects with a target, is supposed to take you down. No matter who YOU are, because of what IT IS.
You threw down all these numbers on damage, and comparisons, just to make an arbitrary point that "it needs to match the other officer weapons better, just like the other officer SR." I'm not bsing you, or trolling you, I'm now telling you that point is nonsensical and frivolous. (The point you made was quite similar to saying a tall politician should be cut at the shin's just because it would be appropriate that he doesn't stand taller than his other average-heighted counterparts. Nonsense, right?)
Your point was made, without any regard to the specific roles of those particular officer weapons. Won't make much sense, for the officer forge gun to have much more damage than the prototype counterparts. Why? Look at how much HP, the forge can already strip from vehicles. All factors considered, a forge already 1-shots LAVs, does roughly the same to DS, and CAN take out a tank in 2 or 3 shots minimum.
Sniper rifles by comparison, WITHOUT damage mods, need 2-3 shots on MLT infantry, and as that infantry specs up... 4 shots, 5 shots, 6 shots... to take down ONE guy. When the damage mods are "fixed", that's going to be happening again. The Thale's will be the only weapon where that doesn't apply, as much.
So your point was also made in short-sightedness. |
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.03.07 19:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote:2100 Angels wrote:Bendtner92 wrote: Django Quik said it nicely in the post just above.
You don't even need to "test" it as you can easily see it just from numbers. No matter how you put it the Thale's will at maximum be 2-shotting ANY non-heavy regardless of fitting and actually also be 2-shotting most heavies as it is right now.
You can actually 2-shot any non-heavy without using 2-3 damage mods as well. 1 is plenty for that job. Using more than 1 is just to 1-shot more people which is lame by itself, and then of course also to make sure you can 2-shot heavies.
If you call 2-shotting a vk.1 assault suit with health mods in all the slots balanced I don't know what to say. For information I can say that with a full health mod fit plus level 5 in the skills that give you 25% more shields and armor, a vk.1 assault will have just above 1k HP. And he gets 2-shotted...
For that exact reason the Thale's needs to be brought down, and not a buff to all the other Officer weapons.
lets put this in context for a second, this is the highest tier weapon currently attainable... 2-3 shotting the upper echelon of players with defensive skills is what it should be able to do. With absolutely MAXED damage skills and 2 complex damage mods, the Thales does either ~468 or ~495 damage... depending on how the damage stacking is calculated. I'm leaning to the 468 damage being the most likely (the sum of the damage bonuses as a multiplier as opposed to each damage bonus stacking on one another). Without knowing what the exact EHP of a fully tanked vk1 suit is, it appears that this suits the scenario you envisioned.... Bendtner92 wrote:That would in my opinion be fairly balanced. It would in that case be able to 1-shot a lot of low-end suits, 2-shot many high-end suits with few health mods, 3-shot high-end suits with many health mods and 3 to 4-shot any heavy. This. The best sniper rifle in the game essentially negates the best shields/armour, turning your proto fits into militia fits. Whats the problem?
As things are CURRENTLY, this is what I do with a proto-sniper (Ishukone), with *triple* damage mods: 1-shot low-end. 2-shot mid-range. 3-shot high end. 4-shot heavies. Fix damage mods, and you WILL be adding an extra shot to each of those categories. I don't know what Martian math the OP is using.
My Thale's converts this into: 1-shot low-end. 1-shot mid-range. 2-shot high end. 2-shot heavies.
Effectively converting everyone into a militia-fit, but not insta-killing spec'd up players. Just as you said. JUST LIKE IT SHOULD. Fix damage mods, and the Thale's will be doing damage like the first set of numbers, which imho, reduces how useful it is, but still makes it handy. The OP is proposing reducing the Thale's base damage, which combined WITH the damage mod fix, is just going to make all manner of nerf. |
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.03.07 20:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:Jathniel wrote:As it stands now. I have a strongly held viewpoint that ARs need to be nerfed. I find it ridiculous that the Officer ARs get 72 and 90 round clips.
Clip size as big as an SMG?
I've never used the Thale's, but it's a beast weapon, and the requirements for it's use match it's performance... You're not going to have noobs running around with Thale's. As it should be.
In this recent corp match against STB, I was running a Genesis Sniper Rifle, with triple damage mods, and it still took 3 rounds to down one of their assaults. With my setup, on average i need 3 rounds to down a HEAVY. Not an assault. 1 round for noobs and scouts. 2 rounds for assaults and logis.
The Thale's is the ONLY sniper rifle with guaranteed stopping power vs. everyone. How rare it is, ensures that it cannot be spammed and abused (i've never EVER gotten one). It's probably the only real treat that sniper's get. I would not like to see a damage nerf on it.
What I CAN agree to is damage reduction in OTHER snipers in favor of larger clip size, and much enhanced RoF. (The details of which would have to be hashed out.) You can hide behind the redline and get a lot of kills with no deaths using a thales..AR has to be in the actual battlefield yet you want those nerfed? I disagree with you
Well, my stance back then was: "why does AR essentially, totally displace the SMG?" then simple sense hit me, "because the SMG is a side arm." and that clip size is only on the Officer's ARs.
ARs are fine, imho. Old post. Viewpoints change.
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.03.07 20:40:00 -
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Bendtner92 wrote:Two troll posts in a row, you just won't stop? I'm not trolling you. I'm disagreeing with you. You don't want me to troll you. That would be unkind, and counter-productive, since that would simply lead to getting banned.
Bendtner92 wrote:If there's 100 people in a corp and all have 20 Thale's that's 2000 in total. Give those to the few snipers in your corp and they'll have several hundred each. If you say that's not a lot GTFO.
Also just because one guy has more Thale's than you does not mean there's an issue with rarity. Maybe you've just been unlucky and been getting other stuff or whatever. Still a limited resource, that will be depleted if used arbitrarily. Point is invalid, the moment you ignore the fact that myself and countless others almost never get them.
Bendtner92 wrote:I never said the other Officer weapons weren't better than the Prototypes. Stop reading what you want and read what I write. The other Officer weapons are only slightly better than the Prototypes, and aren't an easy win button like the Thale's. Except for maybe the Forge Gun since it's able to dish out 13-14k damage in less than ten seconds due to both lower charge time and a bigger clip. You got issues if you think everything that hits hard from afar automatically translates into "an easy win button", and this casts a shadow of incredibility on your entire OP.
Bendtner92 wrote:A Thale's is not supposed to be able to 1-shot nearly every non-heavy. That's what you want it to be like, but if you can't see past your own nose STFU. Having it being able to do that is seriously gamebreaking in high-end matches. Especially considering the almost half CPU and PG requirements of the Prototype, which means the sniper is also able to fit a lot of other stuff as well. I disagree with you. 100% and whole-heartedly. The Thale's as it is now, is *the* most powerful sniper rifle. Yes, it will 1-shot everyone who is NOT spec'd up, AS IT SHOULD. I find it game-balancing because it is the ONLY sniper rifle, that performs as it does. I DISAGREE with you, and the entire point raised in your OP, AND I will continue to disagree with you. And if you can't get over, or handle disagreement, then YOU are the one that can't see past your own nose, and YOU are the one that needs to STFU.
I'm not yielding on this, and there is nothing to negotiate when it comes to the Thale's base damage performance, IMHO, it's the best sniper rifle in the game, and it's damage is the strong point. The damage output of a single weapon, does not break a game.
If you find it "game breaking", and you literally CANNOT play because a single sniper rifle, that you will RARELY ever come across anyway, has a bunch of damage... then the point you are making is not for the sake of game-balance...
It's called whining.
As for the complaints of red line sniping, I'm not going to even start on that, it's totally off-topic, and equates to more whining. |
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.03.07 21:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Patoman Radiant wrote:Jathniel wrote:As it stands now. I have a strongly held viewpoint that ARs need to be nerfed. I find it ridiculous that the Officer ARs get 72 and 90 round clips.
Clip size as big as an SMG?
I've never used the Thale's, but it's a beast weapon, and the requirements for it's use match it's performance... You're not going to have noobs running around with Thale's. As it should be.
In this recent corp match against STB, I was running a Genesis Sniper Rifle, with triple damage mods, and it still took 3 rounds to down one of their assaults. With my setup, on average i need 3 rounds to down a HEAVY. Not an assault. 1 round for noobs and scouts. 2 rounds for assaults and logis.
The Thale's is the ONLY sniper rifle with guaranteed stopping power vs. everyone. How rare it is, ensures that it cannot be spammed and abused (i've never EVER gotten one). It's probably the only real treat that sniper's get. I would not like to see a damage nerf on it.
What I CAN agree to is damage reduction in OTHER snipers in favor of larger clip size, and much enhanced RoF. (The details of which would have to be hashed out.) You do realize how rare the officer weapons are right? If you lose that gun in a suit that could be blown up by any stray powerful shot, nade, rail gun, heavy blaster, you lose at least a million if not more. Officer weapons may not be as rare here than in eve ( have never looted a officer just faction), but still they are not that common, and cannot be purchased or made.
Oh yes, yes i do. Please read the rest of the thread. Please do. Check the date on that post. |
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.03.08 01:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:I'll quote Trollsroyce, the guy that's probably spent the most time with the Thale's this build, because that's also what I want the Thale's to be fixed to (because it's broken right now). trollsroyce wrote:240 damage Thale with a 6/7 shot clip is where I'd have it. 240 damage would be a little under 400 damage with Weaponry 5, Proficiency 5 and some damage mods which would be a perfect value in my opinion.
This value is about where I am with the Ishukone (roughly 325 damage)... on a triple damage mod build, because imho, anything short of this damage for snipers is insufficient. This much damage is already fairly insufficient against higher-end/proto players, and that's with our "broken" damage mods. (3-shots on the toughest assaults. Assaults!)
...and you want an Officer sniper's rifle to perform this way? Essentially, rendering the Thale's another useless sniper rifle? Something, by it's very design, that is the ultimate sniper rifle, and is MEANT to neutralize the absolute toughest players?
The Thale's prevents everyone from doing anything with impunity, and with a good fitting, will bite most of the HP out of the toughest assaults and heavies. As it should.
It should rip away the shields and majority armor of proto assaults and heavies alike, make them run for cover, and tell their squad mates, "look, im surpressed. i can't run back out there until im repped and i get my shields back. That fking Thale's took everything out of me." and if you aren't a spec'd proto, tough luck when someone lines a Thale's scope on you.
Tough proto-heavy on the field, catching everyone's rounds with his teeth? No one else can stop? Don't worry, the Thale's can.
Hotshot proto-assault with a ton of shields running around owning everyone with his Duvolle? No one else can stop? Don't worry, the Thale's can.
Anyone else not proto? Too bad.
The Thale's makes dedicated snipers the undisputed champs of LRC. As it stands, these same proto-heavies or proto-assaults can grab a sniper rifle and counter-snipe (without specing into snipers) without much fear, because they aren't too worried about the current damage of other sniper rifles. They trust that their shields/armor will protect them long enough to pull off the counter-snipe (you would need a 2nd shot to kill them, even if you shoot them in the head because they have so much damned HP), which is fine. But put them up against the Thale's in its current state, and they would think twice, about deliberately exposing themselves in all fronts, even counter-sniping.
@any CCP dev reading: Don't touch the base damage on the Thale's, please. Don't touch it. Leave it right where it is. It keeps dedicated snipers ahead of others that don't think sniping is worthwhile. When you guys fix the damage mods, sniper rifles are going to be at a distinct disadvantage. People accuse snipers of pandering to their KDRs, but take a look at the leaderboards and see the reality of sniping. Majority don't do all that great anyway. Leaderboards are dominated by assaults, and dotted by a few heavies. The Thale's is the one sniper rifle that you KNOW if you risk deploying, it's going to come through for you on whatever you shoot at. |
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.03.08 02:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rachoi wrote:@Jathaniel
i agree that the Thale should stay the ultimate, nigh unbeatable Sniper, as should all the officer toys, since they are [supposedly] the strongeest, hardest to get guns in the game at the moment, but that could always change. meaning varying levels of officer weaponry to collect.
yes, a Thale should be able to take out a Proto Assault VK.1 with maybe two shots, at least. and a headshot? please, that should make their heads explode in a beautiful shower of blood. just as Wolfman's Pistol should be able to take down a heavy with only a few well placed shots. or a Balac AR should be able to rip through a squad of unprepared souls.
we are talking BEST of THE BEST guns here, i will admit some of the ones aside from snipers need a slight boost, if they are going to be the ultimate edge. and there is always a way to take someone down, just find it.... just like you should find that Thale sniper sitting way off in tthe distance
This is more reasonable.
A boost to other officer weapons would be far more acceptable and reasonable. Especially, if some people do not see a difference in performance between their OFC weapon, and whatever their usual fit is.
But asking for a nerf, is happening way too damned much lately. |
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.03.08 03:23:00 -
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Rachoi wrote:very true, no one is looking at the premise of this game, and that is risk/reward by knowing how to maximize the minimum.
and when you learn that... things like the Thale, or Balac toys seem... boring i would think
but i think the other OFC ones do need a boost, and hell, eventually there might be OFC suits too, so nerfing what is good now only hurts the future for us.
think of what can be improved and tweaked, not just flat out nerfed
This is why I say a hit to the Thale's base damage is a no-go. Especially one almost 100 points strong. That's a nerf, not a tweak.
All current damages considered. It's the only SR, with correct fitting, that can 1-shot a proto-player through headshot.
There have to be trade-offs. A serious hit to base damage, must mean a serious increase to something else, like headshot damage. Like %250 instead of %195. The weapon's potency against the strongest characters must not be lost. Dropping the base damage below 300 points will hurt this significantly. |
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.03.08 03:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sleepy Zan wrote:Touch the Thale and I'll cut you!
...into itty, bitty pieces like that guy from Metal Gear Rising....
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.03.11 20:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
swannee wrote:If you are constantly getting Sniped and 1- shot, then just call in your free LAV to move across the open field. Dont blame the sniper or the rifle because you watch an ally die from one shot and then think you are safe to run to the same spot. Most good players will not die that often from a Thales, as they know where most enemy snipers will be sitting and can easily avoid them. I sat in a pub match with a Thales rifle, and killed 15 red dots in the same spot, at the beginning of the match. I think the biggest nerf to snipping will come when the matchmaking will be fixed, and skilled players are pitted against each other.
I guess my point is, if i sit in one spot and get 40+ kills with a thales, is that the rifles fault or the random red dots that keep running into the open?
Oh Jesus yes...
This, so much this... |
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