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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 04:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is about the DS3 standard PS3 controller. Sensitivity still feels off. Anyone ever just get on an FPS and spin around? Usually you start out slow and accelerate to spin around faster. In Dust you pretty much spin at a constant speed. If there is acceleration, I don't notice it.
I tested spinning around while un-scoped and scoped in MAG, BF3, and KZ3. All these games had acceleration (though BF3's was pretty light). The lack of acceleration in Dust's sensitivity is why I think aiming feels jerky and not smooth: When sniping in Dust for example, its really hard to do small fine movements, but with better acceleration movement can start slow and very fine before getting fast and big.
Basically sensitivity needs acceleration. Acceleration options would be a great addition to the sensitivity options. The lack of sensitivity acceleration is why many new players don't like the controls.
Dev comment from the IRC. "[05:14:08] <[CCP]Frame> KAGEHOSHI, we have our eyes on that already, thank you [05:14:16] yay! [05:15:10] so does that mean its coming? [05:15:19] or just being talked about? [05:16:20] <[CCP]Frame> Controls are being tweaked every day :) And devs love detailed info in that thread as well, as it helps them get clearer picture."
Devs are watching, so make your voice heard on the subject. |
Sete Clifton
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE
67
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 05:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yeah, there is something "off" about the aiming in Dust (both in and out of ADS). I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it has to be some combination of sensitivity, acceleration, and dead zone. For me personally, fixing this would be a huge improvement of the game overall. Games that don't have proper aiming mechanics get very tiresome and tedious after a while.
As you pointed out, sniping is a good example. Making small adjustments (usually trying to line up a head shot) of a completely motionless target can be a real pain in the ass. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 05:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
The turn rate is linked directly with the stick's amount of deflection off center. So you need to learn to finesse the stick. Either that or get stick extensions so you can get finer control with larger movements. |
Velvet Overkill
Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS.
104
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 07:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:The turn rate is linked directly with the stick's amount of deflection off center. So you need to learn to finesse the stick. Either that or get stick extensions so you can get finer control with larger movements. Thanks for stating the obvious.
Edit: Also getting stick extensions or having more skill with moving the stick wouldn't solve the problem of the jerky nature of aiming in dust. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 07:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Velvet Overkill wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:The turn rate is linked directly with the stick's amount of deflection off center. So you need to learn to finesse the stick. Either that or get stick extensions so you can get finer control with larger movements. Thanks for stating the obvious.
Some people need it stated. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 07:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
So someone points out a problem with the sensitivity, and you choose to blame the player instead, even suggesting spending money on upgrading one's controller when its the game's problem (never seen another shooter have this problem). Ignoring a problem is not the best way to deal with it, especially when it can potentially turn new players off the game since they're most likely used to actually decent sensitivity acceleration. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 07:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'm not blaming anyone and it's not the games problem just because it doesn't have a mechanic you want. If it's something you're not used to, then do what I do and learn to use it. Failing that, do what I do when it doesn't work for me and find something else to play.
Also, like I've said in other posts, Dust isn't other games. There's always going to be something that will not be to someone's taste. No game ever appealed to everyone who played it. |
Sete Clifton
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE
67
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 08:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
There are a lot of things about games that are similar to films and music in that they are highly subjective and based on artistic vision. This (the aiming) is not one of those things. It's not about being slower and more tactical, or faster and more twitchy. It's about controls that actually work and that you don't have to struggle with in order to make it go where you want it to. Aiming in Dust is very rough and unrefined right now, and if CCP thinks it's working as intended, then I would be seriously concerned about the future of this game. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 09:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sete Clifton wrote:There are a lot of things about games that are similar to films and music in that they are highly subjective and based on artistic vision. This (the aiming) is not one of those things. It's not about being slower and more tactical, or faster and more twitchy. It's about controls that actually work and that you don't have to struggle with in order to make it go where you want it to. Aiming in Dust is very rough and unrefined right now, and if CCP thinks it's working as intended, then I would be seriously concerned about the future of this game.
This ^
@Shijima Kuraimaru: Saying "Dust isn't like other games" is not a valid excuse for a feature just being bad. Using that excuse to justify the bad aiming mechanics is like trying to justify broken Ambush spawning, or bad texture loading. Things like this are the reason why the feedback/requests section exists. Asking for adjustments is totally appropriate. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 11:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Sete Clifton wrote:There are a lot of things about games that are similar to films and music in that they are highly subjective and based on artistic vision. This (the aiming) is not one of those things. It's not about being slower and more tactical, or faster and more twitchy. It's about controls that actually work and that you don't have to struggle with in order to make it go where you want it to. Aiming in Dust is very rough and unrefined right now, and if CCP thinks it's working as intended, then I would be seriously concerned about the future of this game. This ^ @Shijima Kuraimaru: Saying "Dust isn't like other games" is not a valid excuse for a feature just being bad. Using that excuse to justify the bad aiming mechanics is like trying to justify broken Ambush spawning, or bad texture loading. Things like this are the reason why the feedback/requests section exists. Asking for adjustments is totally appropriate.
In that case, bringing up mechanics of other games isn't a valid argument either. Seriously, I have no problem aiming in Dust. If it was so broken, then nobody would be able to do it and yet we have players, that are using the controller, that are getting huge amounts of kills and playing like pros. So then, as your point has been proven invalid by the wide success of many other players, what's your excuse? |
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 00:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Sete Clifton wrote:There are a lot of things about games that are similar to films and music in that they are highly subjective and based on artistic vision. This (the aiming) is not one of those things. It's not about being slower and more tactical, or faster and more twitchy. It's about controls that actually work and that you don't have to struggle with in order to make it go where you want it to. Aiming in Dust is very rough and unrefined right now, and if CCP thinks it's working as intended, then I would be seriously concerned about the future of this game. This ^ @Shijima Kuraimaru: Saying "Dust isn't like other games" is not a valid excuse for a feature just being bad. Using that excuse to justify the bad aiming mechanics is like trying to justify broken Ambush spawning, or bad texture loading. Things like this are the reason why the feedback/requests section exists. Asking for adjustments is totally appropriate. In that case, bringing up mechanics of other games isn't a valid argument either. Seriously, I have no problem aiming in Dust. If it was so broken, then nobody would be able to do it and yet we have players, that are using the controller, that are getting huge amounts of kills and playing like pros. So then, as your point has been proven invalid by the wide success of many other players, what's your excuse?
The controls are usable, and I have grown use to them over the many months that I played Dust, but they are not ideal, and can be improved. The fact that people can use them successfully doesn't mean there is no room for improvement, and of course some people will do really well, we're all the using the same controls, so they only do well against others using those same controls. I bring up other games as examples, not arguments. Unless you suck at aiming at every other shooter because of acceleration, I really don't see why you have such a problem with this request. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 01:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
If there was just an option to adjust the acceleration, that would be perfect. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
970
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 02:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
No DUST isn't other games, but that's mainly in the macro execution. The micro elements like turning and walking will be common to all games, and it is perfectly valid to bring up other games for comparison purposes.
DUST's movement mechanics needs something to smooth it out, either acceleration or user adjustable sensitivity curves. The game should be challenging because of the macro elements, not the micro.
If you wanted to make bowling more challenging you might lengthen the lane, requiring more accuracy. You wouldn't force bowlers to wear mittens. Why? Because that's decreasing the person's ability to apply the skill they have rather than increasing the skill requirement. That makes everybody worse and increases frustration. Sure some folks can overcome the mittens better than others, but it doesn't make the game any more enjoyable.
We want to fight the the enemy, not our controls. Don't mistake the handicap of poor controls for a challenging game. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 21:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Skihids wrote:No DUST isn't other games, but that's mainly in the macro execution. The micro elements like turning and walking will be common to all games, and it is perfectly valid to bring up other games for comparison purposes.
DUST's movement mechanics needs something to smooth it out, either acceleration or user adjustable sensitivity curves. The game should be challenging because of the macro elements, not the micro.
If you wanted to make bowling more challenging you might lengthen the lane, requiring more accuracy. You wouldn't force bowlers to wear mittens. Why? Because that's decreasing the person's ability to apply the skill they have rather than increasing the skill requirement. That makes everybody worse and increases frustration. Sure some folks can overcome the mittens better than others, but it doesn't make the game any more enjoyable.
We want to fight the the enemy, not our controls. Don't mistake the handicap of poor controls for a challenging game.
Look in options. there is a sensitivity adjustment. If that's all you were looking for, it's already there and this diatribe was pointless. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 22:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Skihids wrote:No DUST isn't other games, but that's mainly in the macro execution. The micro elements like turning and walking will be common to all games, and it is perfectly valid to bring up other games for comparison purposes.
DUST's movement mechanics needs something to smooth it out, either acceleration or user adjustable sensitivity curves. The game should be challenging because of the macro elements, not the micro.
If you wanted to make bowling more challenging you might lengthen the lane, requiring more accuracy. You wouldn't force bowlers to wear mittens. Why? Because that's decreasing the person's ability to apply the skill they have rather than increasing the skill requirement. That makes everybody worse and increases frustration. Sure some folks can overcome the mittens better than others, but it doesn't make the game any more enjoyable.
We want to fight the the enemy, not our controls. Don't mistake the handicap of poor controls for a challenging game. Look in options. there is a sensitivity adjustment. If that's all you were looking for, it's already there and this diatribe was pointless.
He should have been more specific as to what he means by sensitivity "curve", but its obvious he isn't talking about the sensitivity options we have now. Anyone who isn't a newb already knows about the current options. |
Mithridates VI
New Eden Research Foundation
170
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 22:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Spawn killing is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Learn how to not get killed on random spawn.
Sound glitching and looping is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Pretend it's a remix and learn to enjoy it.
Passive SP freezing is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Increase your ability with starter fits and you don't need to improve your skills.
Being booted from matches at random is fine. Stop trying to compare Dust to games which let you play until the end of the match. It's not like other games.
Searching for Battle forever is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Get to know people in chat. Read a book. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 02:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mithridates VI wrote:Spawn killing is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Learn how to not get killed on random spawn.
Sound glitching and looping is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Pretend it's a remix and learn to enjoy it.
Passive SP freezing is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Increase your ability with starter fits and you don't need to improve your skills.
Being booted from matches at random is fine. Stop trying to compare Dust to games which let you play until the end of the match. It's not like other games.
Searching for Battle forever is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Get to know people in chat. Read a book.
Spawn killing is fine. It's going to happen. It happens to everyone. It happens to me. Camping droplinks and CRUs is actually a fun past time when something more presing isn't demanding the squad's attention.
Sound glitching is a bug and they're working on it.
Passive SP freeze? I don't know, it hasn't happened to me. But I would call that a bug.
In the entire time I've played Dust, since second build of closed beta, I have only been booted from a match like 5 or 6 times. May be CCP's connection, might be your ISP connection, might be your connection to the internet. Could even be your router/modem is part of the problem. I don't know but they're all possibilities. I just figure that if the problem isn't affecting everyone, then it's not necessarily something on CCP's end.
Battle search issues. There could be any number of things with this but, once again, not something that I personally experience very often. Just a little bit more than being booted from a match, but not very much.
Calling the controller mechanic, that is working as intended, a problem simply because you don't like it is unreasonable. Sure, suggest that they change it. If they do good for you. If it makes the game easier for everyone, great. But it's just different, it's not a problem. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 02:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Skihids wrote:No DUST isn't other games, but that's mainly in the macro execution. The micro elements like turning and walking will be common to all games, and it is perfectly valid to bring up other games for comparison purposes.
DUST's movement mechanics needs something to smooth it out, either acceleration or user adjustable sensitivity curves. The game should be challenging because of the macro elements, not the micro.
If you wanted to make bowling more challenging you might lengthen the lane, requiring more accuracy. You wouldn't force bowlers to wear mittens. Why? Because that's decreasing the person's ability to apply the skill they have rather than increasing the skill requirement. That makes everybody worse and increases frustration. Sure some folks can overcome the mittens better than others, but it doesn't make the game any more enjoyable.
We want to fight the the enemy, not our controls. Don't mistake the handicap of poor controls for a challenging game. Look in options. there is a sensitivity adjustment. If that's all you were looking for, it's already there and this diatribe was pointless. He should have been more specific as to what he means by sensitivity "curve", but its obvious he isn't talking about the sensitivity options we have now. Anyone who isn't a newb already knows about the current options.
You'd be surprised how people can play a game for a long time and not know what options are available to them. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 05:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Still needed. |
Velvet Overkill
Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS.
104
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 08:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Mithridates VI wrote:Spawn killing is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Learn how to not get killed on random spawn.
Sound glitching and looping is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Pretend it's a remix and learn to enjoy it.
Passive SP freezing is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Increase your ability with starter fits and you don't need to improve your skills.
Being booted from matches at random is fine. Stop trying to compare Dust to games which let you play until the end of the match. It's not like other games.
Searching for Battle forever is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Get to know people in chat. Read a book. Spawn killing is fine. It's going to happen. It happens to everyone. It happens to me. Camping droplinks and CRUs is actually a fun past time when something more presing isn't demanding the squad's attention. Sound glitching is a bug and they're working on it. Passive SP freeze? I don't know, it hasn't happened to me. But I would call that a bug. In the entire time I've played Dust, since second build of closed beta, I have only been booted from a match like 5 or 6 times. May be CCP's connection, might be your ISP connection, might be your connection to the internet. Could even be your router/modem is part of the problem. I don't know but they're all possibilities. I just figure that if the problem isn't affecting everyone, then it's not necessarily something on CCP's end. Battle search issues. There could be any number of things with this but, once again, not something that I personally experience very often. Just a little bit more than being booted from a match, but not very much. Calling the controller mechanic, that is working as intended, a problem simply because you don't like it is unreasonable. Sure, suggest that they change it. If they do good for you. If it makes the game easier for everyone, great. But it's just different, it's not a problem. You missed the point of his post, but I guess it's fine, because your interpretation might not be sane. |
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Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 08:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
Velvet Overkill wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Mithridates VI wrote:Spawn killing is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Learn how to not get killed on random spawn.
Sound glitching and looping is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Pretend it's a remix and learn to enjoy it.
Passive SP freezing is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Increase your ability with starter fits and you don't need to improve your skills.
Being booted from matches at random is fine. Stop trying to compare Dust to games which let you play until the end of the match. It's not like other games.
Searching for Battle forever is fine. Dust isn't like other games. Get to know people in chat. Read a book. Spawn killing is fine. It's going to happen. It happens to everyone. It happens to me. Camping droplinks and CRUs is actually a fun past time when something more presing isn't demanding the squad's attention. Sound glitching is a bug and they're working on it. Passive SP freeze? I don't know, it hasn't happened to me. But I would call that a bug. In the entire time I've played Dust, since second build of closed beta, I have only been booted from a match like 5 or 6 times. May be CCP's connection, might be your ISP connection, might be your connection to the internet. Could even be your router/modem is part of the problem. I don't know but they're all possibilities. I just figure that if the problem isn't affecting everyone, then it's not necessarily something on CCP's end. Battle search issues. There could be any number of things with this but, once again, not something that I personally experience very often. Just a little bit more than being booted from a match, but not very much. Calling the controller mechanic, that is working as intended, a problem simply because you don't like it is unreasonable. Sure, suggest that they change it. If they do good for you. If it makes the game easier for everyone, great. But it's just different, it's not a problem. You missed the point of his post, but I guess it's fine, because your interpretation might not be sane.
You wouldn't be the first one to question my sanity. |
Velvet Overkill
Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS.
104
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 08:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Fundamental PFS mechanics like as aiming (scoped and unscoped), running, walking, crouching, firing, and jumping in polished games that are successful feel fluid and intuitive after some getting used to. In Dust 514, aiming requires getting used to and after that, it still feels a little unnatural. For lots of users, it has a significant negative impact on controlling their character causing the user to have to "fight the controls" resulting in less fun and make them less able to get into the game, and ultimately a loss of longterm players due to that the aiming is different than what they have tried in various FPS, but in a bad way and less people recommending this game. |
Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 11:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
I agree with the OP's conclusion as to what's 'off' about the current controls. I find it almost impossible to get any sort of fine tuning to my aiming even when I'm not being shot at. Fire fights tend to have me fighting to keep my aim on a target that's barely moving. That always felt unnatural to me. |
Panther Alpha
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 12:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
I playing with a mouse at the moment, firstly because i'm use to playing FPS with a mouse ( Thanks CCP!! ), secondly because the DS3 controller feels to.... i think " Inaccurate " is the word i looking for.
Maybe trying to emulate the mouse "precision" will be a good thing to try. Do a direct comparison of a gaming mouse set at 800dpi, and try to emulate that "feeling". |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
404
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 15:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:This is about the DS3 standard PS3 controller. Sensitivity still feels off. Anyone ever just get on an FPS and spin around? Usually you start out slow and accelerate to spin around faster. In Dust you pretty much spin at a constant speed. If there is acceleration, I don't notice it.
I tested spinning around while un-scoped and scoped in MAG, BF3, and KZ3. All these games had acceleration (though BF3's was pretty light). The lack of acceleration in Dust's sensitivity is why I think aiming feels jerky and not smooth: When sniping in Dust for example, its really hard to do small fine movements, but with better acceleration movement can start slow and very fine before getting fast and big.
Basically sensitivity needs acceleration. Acceleration options would be a great addition to the sensitivity options. The lack of sensitivity acceleration is why many new players don't like the controls.
Dev comment from the IRC. "[05:14:08] <[CCP]Frame> KAGEHOSHI, we have our eyes on that already, thank you [05:14:16] yay! [05:15:10] so does that mean its coming? [05:15:19] or just being talked about? [05:16:20] <[CCP]Frame> Controls are being tweaked every day :) And devs love detailed info in that thread as well, as it helps them get clearer picture."
Devs are watching, so make your voice heard on the subject. Important topic Kagehoshi, and well presented, +1.
I think I'm prioritizing this topic to #1 on my list. That's because atm it's probably the core mechanic that most effects the new player experience.
I want to make a distinction between character acceleration and controller mechanics - both are vitally important to a great game experience and 'feel'.
The short version:
Suit acceleration(linear and angular) is simple physics, and needs to be implemented and applied consistently to all dropsuits based on Suit mass/rotational inertia & Suit drive systems(force/torque) . This gives us the acceleration we need for aiming, adds realism/immersion, and makes suit choices richer(Scouts have greater power-to-weight ratios, etc.).
Controller curve acceleration. This is how controller output varies with stick position. This curve should be smooth(no discontinuities in the 1st derivative) and be non-linear(posess a non-zero 2nd derivative). I think right now we have a controller response curve that looks like: \_/ - a flat deadzone flanked by constant-slope lines, which is what gives us the abrupt transition to motion when the sticks leave the deadzone.
I'm pointing this out because it would be tempting for a developer to address the issue by fixing only one of these two things - it would be a 'good enough' solution and probably reduce the complaint volume on the forums by a good chunk.
But addressing only one of these issues will not give a AAA fps 'feel', which is the only accepatble outcome here. The analogy would be a race car with wheels aligned properly but poor steering geometry, or to put it more visceraly, it would be dressing up a pig. And the players will feel it, it's prolly the difference between reviews that say 'meh' and reviews that say 'wow'.
As a final point, I feel there's a strong agrument to be made for investing devtime in making the controller response curve player-shapable. (Splines)Bezier curves & control points is the way to do this most efficiently. CCP should tap the dev who did engine exhaust trails for ships in EVE recently. He'd be up to speed and coding in a matter of hours. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
970
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 17:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:This is about the DS3 standard PS3 controller. Sensitivity still feels off. Anyone ever just get on an FPS and spin around? Usually you start out slow and accelerate to spin around faster. In Dust you pretty much spin at a constant speed. If there is acceleration, I don't notice it.
I tested spinning around while un-scoped and scoped in MAG, BF3, and KZ3. All these games had acceleration (though BF3's was pretty light). The lack of acceleration in Dust's sensitivity is why I think aiming feels jerky and not smooth: When sniping in Dust for example, its really hard to do small fine movements, but with better acceleration movement can start slow and very fine before getting fast and big.
Basically sensitivity needs acceleration. Acceleration options would be a great addition to the sensitivity options. The lack of sensitivity acceleration is why many new players don't like the controls.
Dev comment from the IRC. "[05:14:08] <[CCP]Frame> KAGEHOSHI, we have our eyes on that already, thank you [05:14:16] yay! [05:15:10] so does that mean its coming? [05:15:19] or just being talked about? [05:16:20] <[CCP]Frame> Controls are being tweaked every day :) And devs love detailed info in that thread as well, as it helps them get clearer picture."
Devs are watching, so make your voice heard on the subject. Important topic Kagehoshi, and well presented, +1. I think I'm prioritizing this topic to #1 on my list. That's because atm it's probably the core mechanic that most effects the new player experience. I want to make a distinction between character acceleration and controller mechanics - both are vitally important to a great game experience and 'feel'. The short version: Suit acceleration(linear and angular) is simple physics, and needs to be implemented and applied consistently to all dropsuits based on Suit mass/rotational inertia & Suit drive systems(force/torque) . This gives us the acceleration we need for aiming, adds realism/immersion, and makes suit choices richer(Scouts have greater power-to-weight ratios, etc.). Controller curve acceleration. This is how controller output varies with stick position. This curve should be smooth(no discontinuities in the 1st derivative) and be non-linear(posess a non-zero 2nd derivative). I think right now we have a controller response curve that looks like: \_/ - a flat deadzone flanked by constant-slope lines, which is what gives us the abrupt transition to motion when the sticks leave the deadzone. I'm pointing this out because it would be tempting for a developer to address the issue by fixing only one of these two things - it would be a 'good enough' solution and probably reduce the complaint volume on the forums by a good chunk. But addressing only one of these issues will not give a AAA fps 'feel', which is the only accepatble outcome here. The analogy would be a race car with wheels aligned properly but poor steering geometry, or to put it more visceraly, it would be dressing up a pig. And the players will feel it, it's prolly the difference between reviews that say 'meh' and reviews that say 'wow'. As a final point, I feel there's a strong agrument to be made for investing devtime in making the controller response curve player-shapable. (Splines)Bezier curves & control points is the way to do this most efficiently. CCP should tap the dev who did engine exhaust trails for ships in EVE recently. He'd be up to speed and coding in a matter of hours.
This is what I was talking about when I mentioned user adjustable sensitivity curves.
It's not the slope of the line, we can adjust that now with the slider.
The problem is that it's a simple line. If you raise the sensitivity up high enough such that the end of your line is high enough, the transition from nothing to a lot of movement is abrupt. If you lower it to the bottom the transition is better, but at the expense of a far lower max rate at the end of the line.
What you need is a curve, not a line. One that can smooth out the transition from nothing to moving, then move up at a decent pace to produce a fast movement. What would that feel like? Just like the inertia you experience every day. It takes a moment to get moving. You don't just start out at top speed, and doing so in game is unnatural and causes control problems.
It's difficult to get just a tiny bit of movement when the line is highly sloped, and that is why it's far easier to use a mouse for sniping. Your hand and mouse is naturally affected by intertia/acceleration, and you can fine tune it with special weights in a gaming mouse. Every wonder why you can adjust the weight of the mouse? It's to let you adjust your acceleration curve with real physics.
What we need is that simulated physics for the DS3. |
Firestorm Zulu
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2013.02.22 17:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:This is about the DS3 standard PS3 controller. Sensitivity still feels off. Anyone ever just get on an FPS and spin around? Usually you start out slow and accelerate to spin around faster. In Dust you pretty much spin at a constant speed. If there is acceleration, I don't notice it.
I tested spinning around while un-scoped and scoped in MAG, BF3, and KZ3. All these games had acceleration (though BF3's was pretty light). The lack of acceleration in Dust's sensitivity is why I think aiming feels jerky and not smooth: When sniping in Dust for example, its really hard to do small fine movements, but with better acceleration movement can start slow and very fine before getting fast and big.
Basically sensitivity needs acceleration. Acceleration options would be a great addition to the sensitivity options. The lack of sensitivity acceleration is why many new players don't like the controls.
Dev comment from the IRC. "[05:14:08] <[CCP]Frame> KAGEHOSHI, we have our eyes on that already, thank you [05:14:16] yay! [05:15:10] so does that mean its coming? [05:15:19] or just being talked about? [05:16:20] <[CCP]Frame> Controls are being tweaked every day :) And devs love detailed info in that thread as well, as it helps them get clearer picture."
Devs are watching, so make your voice heard on the subject.
BF3 does an excellent job of sensitivity. Right now in in hip fire or ADS everything is jerky because the acceration is non almost non existent. You hit a constant velocity spin speed with only being a little bit off axis on the DS3. It makes sniping, long range shots, and general fine tuned aiming a chore/burden/pain. |
CLOSEDBETA TSTR-est E3
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2013.02.22 18:25:00 -
[28] - Quote
God every time I read one of horned wolfs post it just sounds like long winded half speculation fps genre authority dribble... I have yet to see this individual in any match mind you and hardly ever on the leaderboards.I have seen him more in IRC and on the forums than in game.He still feels like he is an authority on subjects such as these but I wonder if his opinion on the subject matters because where are the hours of testing.One would assume that such an individual would be highly visible.That being said.
Sensitivity does not effect the turn speed in this game, and should not. The sooner you realize that the better.Each class has strengths and merits.Anyone who is reading this and does not know the scout is the fastest class in the game.It strafes faster sprints faster and turns faster.It is balanced by the fact that it has the lowest HP of any other class.Heavy is the slowest.It gas the highest HP of any other class.It also is a DPS machine in the short range.But the ASSAULT can widdle its HP down from mid to long range and it moves slightly faster.This is how all the different classes are balanced out.
Giving the player the ability to effect turn speed in the options menu would give rise to heavies that do 180 degree turns instantly......and that my friends would be stupid.
Next time Horned wolf bring up a thread that doesnt have to do with major game balancing mechanical changes that give favor to one class or another.Also how about you use some foresight into what your requesting and imagine how it could be broken.Then imagine everyone doing it.Lets use a little intelligence here instead of filling page after page with long winded assumptions about the potential player base growth as if you were an authority on the matter.
There are several DS3 users out there that are new to the game and they are doing quite well.Its the complexity of the SP system and the customization that they are having small trouble with but this is easily remedied by just asking questions to other players.
While a turn speed base speed increase would be great it would have to across the board to keep it from unbalancing the other classes.....and so we would just find our selves back here again....kick rocks and get your aim up kid.
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Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
970
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Posted - 2013.02.22 18:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
CLOSEDBETA TSTR-est E3 wrote: God every time I read one of horned wolfs post it just sounds like long winded half speculation fps genre authority dribble... I have yet to see this individual in any match mind you and hardly ever on the leaderboards.I have seen him more in IRC and on the forums than in game.He still feels like he is an authority on subjects such as these but I wonder if his opinion on the subject matters because where are the hours of testing.One would assume that such an individual would be highly visible.That being said.
Sensitivity does not effect the turn speed in this game, and should not. The sooner you realize that the better.Each class has strengths and merits.Anyone who is reading this and does not know the scout is the fastest class in the game.It strafes faster sprints faster and turns faster.It is balanced by the fact that it has the lowest HP of any other class.Heavy is the slowest.It gas the highest HP of any other class.It also is a DPS machine in the short range.But the ASSAULT can widdle its HP down from mid to long range and it moves slightly faster.This is how all the different classes are balanced out.
Giving the player the ability to effect turn speed in the options menu would give rise to heavies that do 180 degree turns instantly......and that my friends would be stupid.
Next time Horned wolf bring up a thread that doesnt have to do with major game balancing mechanical changes that give favor to one class or another.Also how about you use some foresight into what your requesting and imagine how it could be broken.Then imagine everyone doing it.Lets use a little intelligence here instead of filling page after page with long winded assumptions about the potential player base growth as if you were an authority on the matter.
There are several DS3 users out there that are new to the game and they are doing quite well.Its the complexity of the SP system and the customization that they are having small trouble with but this is easily remedied by just asking questions to other players.
While a turn speed base speed increase would be great it would have to across the board to keep it from unbalancing the other classes.....and so we would just find our selves back here again....kick rocks and get your aim up kid.
You may be letting your opinon of the poster affect the care with which you read his posts.
He is not asking to allow the user to adjust the maximum turn speed of a suit.
He is asking to adjust the rate at which that speed is reached.
He is asking for inertia to be introduced into the DUST universe so the moment you start moving you aren't moving at top speed.
That is the opposite of HALO where the character spins at top speed without accelleration or being bothered to follow any physics model at all. |
CLOSEDBETA TSTR-est E3
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2013.02.22 19:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
There are a hundred other threads that have gone over sensitivity,acceleration and the DS3.Yes I will concede that other games do acceleration better than CCP.You also have to take into consideration that CCP is a PC software company and there users are KBM.CCP has done a good job of giving us arc movements instead of angular arrow key movements.You also have to understand that this is the UNREAL ENGINE and if you ever played that game you know that character movements in that game are like the light bikes off the first TRON movie.There in 90's and straight 45 degrees.We already know why CCP chose unreal because they were able to acquire the right to use it and its portability with the PS4 coming out.We wont be going backwards this is the engine they chose.
Btw I dont know how many times Ive fooled with the sensitivity because I adjusted it for sniping then back to assault it had to be readjusted.........first thing I did on this game the very first spawn was jump off a rock and spin and yes I saw it then.Has it stopped me from carrying a 4.2 and over 9k in kills?No I adapted.Most truly good FPS players will.All this would do at this point is change the muscle memory for peoples articulation during which there KDRS will suffer as they readjust and then after a short time theyll just go back to killing people just as well as before if not better.
Im not diametrically opposed to this thread Im just saying its been done before. ALOT, and CCP didnt do anything about it then so why would they now.....They (CCP) wonder why they get reviews like "the controls feel clunky".Like I said I dont think Unreal was made with analog joysticks in mind.This isnt a failing on CCP's part just an over site.I chock this one upto when the PS4 comes out maybe something can be done about this.Until then I just keep playing.
I dont think acceleration should be a adjustable thing,but it is a good thing and I thought a norm in current games now but apparently I was wrong.It is rather simple though.One speed for 90 to 67.5 degrees.67.5 to 22.5 faster.22.5 to 0 full turn speed.Now I know the analog stick doesnt go from 90 to 0 degrees but I think you get my meaning.
The full turn speed would be the classes current turn speed ...problem solved.Now will they do that?I doubt it. |
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