DUST Search - [Request] Sensitivity acceleration: controls feel off without it (CCP is watching)

Vrain Matari wrote:

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

This is about the DS3 standard PS3 controller. Sensitivity still feels off. Anyone ever just get on an FPS and spin around? Usually you start out slow and accelerate to spin around faster. In Dust you pretty much spin at a constant speed. If there is acceleration, I don't notice it.

I tested spinning around while un-scoped and scoped in MAG, BF3, and KZ3. All these games had acceleration (though BF3's was pretty light). The lack of acceleration in Dust's sensitivity is why I think aiming feels jerky and not smooth: When sniping in Dust for example, its really hard to do small fine movements, but with better acceleration movement can start slow and very fine before getting fast and big.

Basically sensitivity needs acceleration. Acceleration options would be a great addition to the sensitivity options. The lack of sensitivity acceleration is why many new players don't like the controls.

Dev comment from the IRC.
"[05:14:08] <[CCP]Frame> KAGEHOSHI, we have our eyes on that already, thank you
[05:14:16] yay!
[05:15:10] so does that mean its coming?
[05:15:19] or just being talked about?
[05:16:20] <[CCP]Frame> Controls are being tweaked every day :) And devs love detailed info in that thread as well, as it helps them get clearer picture."

Devs are watching, so make your voice heard on the subject.

Important topic Kagehoshi, and well presented, +1.

I think I'm prioritizing this topic to #1 on my list. That's because atm it's probably the core mechanic that most effects the new player experience.

I want to make a distinction between character acceleration and controller mechanics - both are vitally important to a great game experience and 'feel'.

The short version:

Suit acceleration(linear and angular) is simple physics, and needs to be implemented and applied consistently to all dropsuits based on Suit mass/rotational inertia & Suit drive systems(force/torque) . This gives us the acceleration we need for aiming, adds realism/immersion, and makes suit choices richer(Scouts have greater power-to-weight ratios, etc.).

Controller curve acceleration. This is how controller output varies with stick position. This curve should be smooth(no discontinuities in the 1st derivative) and be non-linear(posess a non-zero 2nd derivative). I think right now we have a controller response curve that looks like: \_/ - a flat deadzone flanked by constant-slope lines, which is what gives us the abrupt transition to motion when the sticks leave the deadzone.

I'm pointing this out because it would be tempting for a developer to address the issue by fixing only one of these two things - it would be a 'good enough' solution and probably reduce the complaint volume on the forums by a good chunk.

But addressing only one of these issues will not give a AAA fps 'feel', which is the only accepatble outcome here. The analogy would be a race car with wheels aligned properly but poor steering geometry, or to put it more visceraly, it would be dressing up a pig. And the players will feel it, it's prolly the difference between reviews that say 'meh' and reviews that say 'wow'.

As a final point, I feel there's a strong agrument to be made for investing devtime in making the controller response curve player-shapable. (Splines)Bezier curves & control points is the way to do this most efficiently. CCP should tap the dev who did engine exhaust trails for ships in EVE recently. He'd be up to speed and coding in a matter of hours.


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Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 970	Posted - 2013.02.20 02:50:00 - [1] - Quote No DUST isn't other games, but that's mainly in the macro execution. The micro elements like turning and walking will be common to all games, and it is perfectly valid to bring up other games for comparison purposes. DUST's movement mechanics needs something to smooth it out, either acceleration or user adjustable sensitivity curves. The game should be challenging because of the macro elements, not the micro. If you wanted to make bowling more challenging you might lengthen the lane, requiring more accuracy. You wouldn't force bowlers to wear mittens. Why? Because that's decreasing the person's ability to apply the skill they have rather than increasing the skill requirement. That makes everybody worse and increases frustration. Sure some folks can overcome the mittens better than others, but it doesn't make the game any more enjoyable. We want to fight the the enemy, not our controls. Don't mistake the handicap of poor controls for a challenging game.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 970	Posted - 2013.02.22 17:22:00 - [2] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: This is about the DS3 standard PS3 controller. Sensitivity still feels off. Anyone ever just get on an FPS and spin around? Usually you start out slow and accelerate to spin around faster. In Dust you pretty much spin at a constant speed. If there is acceleration, I don't notice it. I tested spinning around while un-scoped and scoped in MAG, BF3, and KZ3. All these games had acceleration (though BF3's was pretty light). The lack of acceleration in Dust's sensitivity is why I think aiming feels jerky and not smooth: When sniping in Dust for example, its really hard to do small fine movements, but with better acceleration movement can start slow and very fine before getting fast and big. Basically sensitivity needs acceleration. Acceleration options would be a great addition to the sensitivity options. The lack of sensitivity acceleration is why many new players don't like the controls. Dev comment from the IRC. "[05:14:08] <[CCP]Frame> KAGEHOSHI, we have our eyes on that already, thank you [05:14:16] yay! [05:15:10] so does that mean its coming? [05:15:19] or just being talked about? [05:16:20] <[CCP]Frame> Controls are being tweaked every day :) And devs love detailed info in that thread as well, as it helps them get clearer picture." Devs are watching, so make your voice heard on the subject. Important topic Kagehoshi, and well presented, +1. I think I'm prioritizing this topic to #1 on my list. That's because atm it's probably the core mechanic that most effects the new player experience. I want to make a distinction between character acceleration and controller mechanics - both are vitally important to a great game experience and 'feel'. The short version: Suit acceleration(linear and angular) is simple physics, and needs to be implemented and applied consistently to all dropsuits based on Suit mass/rotational inertia & Suit drive systems(force/torque) . This gives us the acceleration we need for aiming, adds realism/immersion, and makes suit choices richer(Scouts have greater power-to-weight ratios, etc.). Controller curve acceleration. This is how controller output varies with stick position. This curve should be smooth(no discontinuities in the 1st derivative) and be non-linear(posess a non-zero 2nd derivative). I think right now we have a controller response curve that looks like: \_/ - a flat deadzone flanked by constant-slope lines, which is what gives us the abrupt transition to motion when the sticks leave the deadzone. I'm pointing this out because it would be tempting for a developer to address the issue by fixing only one of these two things - it would be a 'good enough' solution and probably reduce the complaint volume on the forums by a good chunk. But addressing only one of these issues will not give a AAA fps 'feel', which is the only accepatble outcome here. The analogy would be a race car with wheels aligned properly but poor steering geometry, or to put it more visceraly, it would be dressing up a pig. And the players will feel it, it's prolly the difference between reviews that say 'meh' and reviews that say 'wow'. As a final point, I feel there's a strong agrument to be made for investing devtime in making the controller response curve player-shapable. (Splines)Bezier curves & control points is the way to do this most efficiently. CCP should tap the dev who did engine exhaust trails for ships in EVE recently. He'd be up to speed and coding in a matter of hours. This is what I was talking about when I mentioned user adjustable sensitivity curves. It's not the slope of the line, we can adjust that now with the slider. The problem is that it's a simple line. If you raise the sensitivity up high enough such that the end of your line is high enough, the transition from nothing to a lot of movement is abrupt. If you lower it to the bottom the transition is better, but at the expense of a far lower max rate at the end of the line. What you need is a curve, not a line. One that can smooth out the transition from nothing to moving, then move up at a decent pace to produce a fast movement. What would that feel like? Just like the inertia you experience every day. It takes a moment to get moving. You don't just start out at top speed, and doing so in game is unnatural and causes control problems. It's difficult to get just a tiny bit of movement when the line is highly sloped, and that is why it's far easier to use a mouse for sniping. Your hand and mouse is naturally affected by intertia/acceleration, and you can fine tune it with special weights in a gaming mouse. Every wonder why you can adjust the weight of the mouse? It's to let you adjust your acceleration curve with real physics. What we need is that simulated physics for the DS3.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 970	Posted - 2013.02.22 18:36:00 - [3] - Quote CLOSEDBETA TSTR-est E3 wrote: God every time I read one of horned wolfs post it just sounds like long winded half speculation fps genre authority dribble... I have yet to see this individual in any match mind you and hardly ever on the leaderboards.I have seen him more in IRC and on the forums than in game.He still feels like he is an authority on subjects such as these but I wonder if his opinion on the subject matters because where are the hours of testing.One would assume that such an individual would be highly visible.That being said. Sensitivity does not effect the turn speed in this game, and should not. The sooner you realize that the better.Each class has strengths and merits.Anyone who is reading this and does not know the scout is the fastest class in the game.It strafes faster sprints faster and turns faster.It is balanced by the fact that it has the lowest HP of any other class.Heavy is the slowest.It gas the highest HP of any other class.It also is a DPS machine in the short range.But the ASSAULT can widdle its HP down from mid to long range and it moves slightly faster.This is how all the different classes are balanced out. Giving the player the ability to effect turn speed in the options menu would give rise to heavies that do 180 degree turns instantly......and that my friends would be stupid. Next time Horned wolf bring up a thread that doesnt have to do with major game balancing mechanical changes that give favor to one class or another.Also how about you use some foresight into what your requesting and imagine how it could be broken.Then imagine everyone doing it.Lets use a little intelligence here instead of filling page after page with long winded assumptions about the potential player base growth as if you were an authority on the matter. There are several DS3 users out there that are new to the game and they are doing quite well.Its the complexity of the SP system and the customization that they are having small trouble with but this is easily remedied by just asking questions to other players. While a turn speed base speed increase would be great it would have to across the board to keep it from unbalancing the other classes.....and so we would just find our selves back here again....kick rocks and get your aim up kid. You may be letting your opinon of the poster affect the care with which you read his posts. He is not asking to allow the user to adjust the maximum turn speed of a suit. He is asking to adjust the rate at which that speed is reached. He is asking for inertia to be introduced into the DUST universe so the moment you start moving you aren't moving at top speed. That is the opposite of HALO where the character spins at top speed without accelleration or being bothered to follow any physics model at all.