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Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
789
   |
Posted - 2013.02.13 06:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Howdy.
The first thing to note... While this is a long post it is not intended to be a rant. It is feedback meant to be constructive.
Most of you know me, or have some idea of who I am and what I do around here. For those that don't, I'll introduce myself briefly. Like a lot of people, I've been following dust intently since it was first announced back in 2009. I've been a part of the actual beta for very close to a full year now. For about half that time, I've been writing for Dust514.org, dust514base.com and co-hosting CAST514 with Grideris. I currently own the #dust514 channel on irc.coldfront.net which is where most dust fans hang out. I've been as active as I can within the community, and interact with (read: harass) developers on a semi-regular basis. I've mingled and murdered with most of the big name corps and a lot of smaller ones. It's been something of a goal of mine to squad with pretty much everyone I can, at least once.
But, I digress. The point of the introduction, is to add a sense of gravity to this letter. Very few (if anyone) can say they have been more active or contributed more to the community than I have. It'd be fairly safe to say I am probably one of the biggest (or at least the most prominent) Dust Fanboys out there. Few have defended CCP over the last year as much as I have, or remained as positive and hopeful. I write this though, with a heavy heart. In the past, I expressed similar concerns privately via email not wanting to start a threadnaught. However, I am no longer convinced my upbeat attitude will get through to CCP, and the only course forward is tough love and a more public approach. A lot of this has been said before, but I'm hoping that because it's me saying it.. CCP will take an extra ear and hopefully get their butts in gear.
To put it as bluntly as possible : Dust will never be a great game if things progress as they have been so far. CCP needs to seriously step up their game, or Dust will never be the amazing game they want it to be.
To clarify : I am not saying dust is going to fail. I am saying that Dust does not and probably will not have that 'timeless' quality that makes a FPS game great enough to have a huge chunk of players till playing it a decade later. This is a very hard thing to do, and there's really only been a dozen, maybe two dozen or so FPS games that really stood out like that over the years. There's no question Dust will be successful and always have a decently sized following just because of the Eve players who are interested in FPS games. Being free doesn't hurt either. CCP has made history by linking the two games together... but the big question is and always has been 'Now what?'
"Now What?" has been the question we've been asking CCP for almost three years. Every time we get an answer, the plan dazzles and amazes those able to live in the same imagination land as CCP when they get that twinkle in their eye. Yet... CCP has been coming notoriously short when it comes to the actual delivery part of those plans. When I look at the past year of beta, I've heard lots of great plans and cool stuff from the Devs, but yet looking at the actual progress of the game... I'm actually becoming very worried.
We've gotten shinier textures, a couple new guns, and a new map or two... but that's pretty much it. In almost a year of beta, they added the mass driver and laser rifle, black ops tanks, and I think it was 3 maps. Throw in a about 5-6 variants of modules too I guess. They've actually removed more guns and modules for 'adjustments' than they put in by like twice the amount, though! They added corporation/squad support and orbital strikes. Dropship handling was changed a bit. The last two builds/expansions (I'm gonna call them builds from here on) were pretty much entirely focused on fixing stability and added almost nothing to actual game play. This is a huge core of the problem. The last few builds were necessary to make things more playable, but the foundation of the game (The actual gun play and shooting aspects) is still severely lacking and has not been given nearly as much attention as it should have gotten. Moving forward, if this is not a high priority... any grand future plans will be build on a poor foundation and the game overall will suffer immensely.
I'm hesitant to bring up Incarna because it's too easy and convenient to say "Hey CCP... Incarna (blah blah something something)" and use it to bully them about pretty much any subject with it. But for the last 3-5 months, They have spent very little (noticeable) time on the actual shooting part of this FPS game. To me, that is a problem. A -very- big problem. We've had about 2-3 incarna-esque builds in a row now and most of the bigger supporters in the community said nothing of it because we had heard the bigger plans and were always looking over the hill to the greener pastures that lay ahead. Only... when we got there they weren't so green. Personally, I can't stand by and let this continue without speaking out. I may be a fanboy, but I'm perfectly capable of calling CCP out on their **** when they need to be. Point being.. In pretty more than a year of beta almost all of the main changes have been on the backend and had very little to do with actual gameplay itself.
Some of it is a problem with managing the expectations of the players. Is CCP really at fault there? Hard to say. One thing is for sure though... CCP has handled expectation management pretty poorly. While I personally take any future plans I hear from them with a grain of salt and assume it's just something on the table, there's many others in the community that will just rush to post any tiny tidbit they hear, filling in any blanks with speculation of their own and posting it as irrefutable fact. While the bigger problem there is (mostly well intentioned) players, CCP never stepping in to debunk these wild speculations certainly does not help. |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
789
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 06:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Though, moving back to my earlier point : What is there that will make dust stand out and make it great? I ask this openly, knowing full well at least some of the plans for the nearish and far future. At least currently? We have nothing. The guns & suits are generic, with very little to actually differentiate them. The only suit that is really 'special' is the heavy, because it is the only suit that can rock heavy weapons. The scout suit is essentially just a faster, weaker assault suit, and the logistics suit is essentially just a slower, more versatile assault. None of these suits really do anything special that the other suits can't. It's just a matter of one being marginally more useful in like 1/10 situations than another suit. To be frank, it's kind of dull.
None of the suits or vehicles really do anything special. None of them have any sort of 'Wow' factor. Bonuses and abilities such have been talked about.. but I'm trying to avoid futuretalk and focus on what we have now. The current 'sidegrades' which we were told would be expanded on, have instead been mostly flattened so that there is very little difference between tiers & versions. The fitting system really isn't that different from loadout editing in other FPS games. Pretty much the only 'unique' spin that Dust has going for it right now compared to most FPS games is the fact you need to buy your own equipment. I don't count OB's because they are essentially a killstreak air strike, something mirrored in other games as well. The only thing special about OB's is that they can come from Eve which is honestly not very exciting (In current form)
Then we have the game modes: Ambush and skirmish 2.0, with ambush being your stock TDM. A staple in any FPS game, there's really not much to criticize here other than the spawn system and most of the maps either being way too large or way too small. But when we talk about skirmish 2.0, the people who remember the original version from 8+ months ago pretty much unanimously want it back. There was an actual sense of attacking/defending, but instead of working to resolve the imbalances... they completely revamped the game mode into something totally different. Skirmish 2.0 could've easily been a completely different game mode, and then we'd have much more variety than we had now. And yet... we're stuck wondering what could've been and feeling nostalgic over the 'good old days'. It's also worth mentioning the canyon tile set/layout. This vanished, but people who gave feedback about the original craterlake layout again almost unanimously loved the canyon style and preferred it to the redline fishbowl mountains every other current map is plagued with. A much loved game mode was killed because it was too easy to attack. A balance issue killed skirmish 1.0 when a fix to defence relays would've been just as good.
That brings me to balance as a whole. In this regard, there has been almost zero (if any) forward progress in almost a year of playing the beta. It's been a largely illogical teeter-totter of a couple things being the only things worth using, then becoming worthless, then becoming godly again or staying worthless. A few things have remained far too good and been almost completely unchanged for almost a year. Shotguns, and the incredibly broken 450% headshot modifier on scrambler pistols for instance. From my chatting with people on the dev teams, there really isn't anyone specifically in charge of balancing. If there is any point I could stress enough in this letter, it is that this needs to change. I'm not going to argue this a lot. The history of the beta and the long series of mostly confusing over-nerfs (Or lack of nerfs) or nerfs in completely wrong areas leaving something still far too strong speaks entirely for itself.
Balance is a tricky thing, though. For this, CCP has to rely a lot on the community to playtest and provide feedback. However... even more daunting than the task of balancing, is filtering through the trash on the forums and finding the good/useful feedback. It is here that one of the biggest communication gaps emerges. Probably the best example I can give you : We were talking to CCP Blam, one of the main dudes in charge of vehicle related stuff. He was (seemingly) completely unaware of the hilariously broken vehicle collision damage that had emerged like two builds ago, but got incredibly worse with this latest build. There are many more examples of similar conversations with devs where they go "Really, that happens!?" that draw serious questions to if any of them actually play the builds once they are released. If they do play with us on current builds, they are either (seemingly) unwilling or unable to recognize faults in their own work, which is distressing and worrisome in itself. |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
789
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 06:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
The communication gap has been something multiple people have spoken out and asked desperately for measures to improve things. To be as blunt as possible : The information that needs to be getting to the dev teams in most cases (apparently) never reaches them, and when it does it lacks proper context so they don't really know what to do with it. So they just slap-dash something together and in nearly every circumstance to date... it just makes things worse. The weekly updates threads just reinforce this, The community team is definitely reading the forums and passing some things along... but it's usually not the right things unless there's a threadnaught(s), or it's unclear what about a specific subject they are passing along, only that they are talking about something. This desperately needs to improve. We as players could do a lot to help them in this regard, if we policed ourselves a bit better and posted much less trash for them to wade through to get to the good stuff. If you have a friend that likes to shitpost, just tell them it's not cool and to cut it out. Peer pressure can be a wonderful thing if used for good! Even then, the community team has probably one of the worst jobs out there in the eyes of most. It falls to them to pick through the trash, and then pass information along to the devs during their weekly meeting. I'd honestly like to blame the junk posts, but the perception is that they're still missing a lot of the legitimate stuff. While none of us know what's going on in these meetings... one can't help but feel that important stuff is being overlooked. (See earlier example with CCP Blam)
EDIT: An addendum about the communication issues. This is really a tricky thing to comment on. To be completely honest, it does seem like CCP is trying hard to listen to the community. The problem is, they listen to us too much but never seem to hear what we are saying. They've allowed player complaints to dictate the direction of the game to the point where they've never really focused on their own plans, or that's the way it seemed. Best example : People said grouping was important. Instead of just giving us squads to let us play with four of our friends, they rushed to give us corporations with incomplete functionality fairly earlier on than they planned... instead of working on the core gameplay. Grouping and corps definitely improved the social aspects of the game which was a much needed breath of life at that point, but it still didn't change the fact that all it really added was that you could play (what still remains) a barebones game with your couple hundred closest friends four at a time.
CCP has a pretty awesome plan for the long term with dust. Anyone who's read anything about Dust from CCP can see that. The problem here is... They don't seem to actually have anything for the short term, or it changes wildly with every build. There is a serious lack of direction in making those plans actually happen. They don't seem to know what to focus on, so the bouncing from plan to plan ends up hindering development overall. CCP does need to listen to its community, but they need to pick and choose what they listen to more carefully. They need to not let players completely change their plans except in the more dire of circumstances. Make a plan. Stick with it. Make minor adjustments as needed. CCP can afford to go more free-form after all the necessary and basic features are in the game. Right now though, the absolute best thing CCP can do is to just focus on the core experience. We've had months of stability and backend changes. Now it's time to make the frontend shine. (And I'm not talking about graphics) That said... CCP can't get tunnel vision. I know that sounds like a mixed message, but that's been the problem this entire development cycle. They get so caught up working on fixes that they seemingly stop working on newer stuff. No matter what, there always needs to be tangible forward progress.
There's just really not much excuse for the lack of delivery on even the most basic of stated plans so far. If they honestly can't focus on doing current content fixes along with the addition of new content... They need to hire more people for these teams to accommodate that. Plain and simple. The current pace of development has been languid at best. As much as I love the CCP guys I've had the chance to talk to.. I have to believe they can do better.
I don't want to make this seem like I'm rambling, So I'll cut this short. Anyone who's been a regular on the forums has probably noticed my activity has severely dropped. I'm not the only one, either. The goodposters are dwindling. Despite being an avid supporter of Dust... I find myself becoming less willing to help a company that won't help itself. I see other people making amazing posts and feedback which seems to fall on deaf ears, as it seems many of my own attempts do. Though admittedly I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if they simply patronized me and nodded their heads every time I approach them, because of how much I prod and harass them.
TL:DR
(Don't be a slacker, read it)
Lovingly,
Nova Knife |
DropKickSuicide
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
74
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 06:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
(Reserved, Possibly for trolling) |
ScorchOP AmarrVictor
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 06:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quit reading at 'I am self important'
(You're not) |
Rachoi
HavoK Core
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
this is a great post and all... but i dunno if its actually gonna be read... lets hope though, and i wwant to keep a shamelss bump line on this one |
Sylvana Nightwind
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
60
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ah another build fatigue post. Well, what can you do? You can either spit at ccp for not delivering new content to the game/fixing stuff quicker or deal with it and just wait :D If they say that dust office is like 3x smaller than eve office I kinda understand how they don't really have that many resources to push stuff forward harder like in eve. |
Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros
Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
good post it just seems to be more criticism then actual support/feedback who wants to read a giant criticizing letter? |
DropKickSuicide
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
74
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Wow I atcually read ALL of that, and agree with alot of what you say.
Even tho Im bad for Trolling myself I think itd be a good Idea to ease up on the Troll posts and when someone does cry "NERF IT" or "ITS OP" we as a cummunity need to be more civil and descriptive with why said thing is not OP or why said thing is OP.
This is a Beta after all and we are the ones the Devs are looking to for Information so maybe they would hear us out more if we posted feedback worth hearing. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Too little too late.
In seriousness though, if you can get them to listen because it is coming from you, then DUST is better off and I will be happy. |
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Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
789
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sylvana Nightwind wrote:Ah another build fatigue post. Well, what can you do? You can either spit at ccp for not delivering new content to the game/fixing stuff quicker or deal with it and just wait :D If they say that dust office is like 3x smaller than eve office I kinda understand how they don't really have that many resources to push stuff forward harder like in eve.
This is not a build fatigue post.
This is a post drawing attention to the fact that there has been a pretty small amount of tangible progress as far as content goes in almost an entire year of development, coming from someone who has seen that entire period go by pretty unremarkably.
This is a post drawing attention to the fact that balance as a whole has gotten much worse over the course of a year,
You know, stuff like that. |
Ceerix MKII
An Eye For An Eye
AN EYE F0R AN EYE
35
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
I am starting to get the same feeling from the game as it moved from closed beta to open beta. Right now i'm looking to see if there are major changes over the next 2-3 months, and that most of the effort from the closed beta was used in trying to join the game with the tranquility server. But if it keeps progressing at the same speed it has been I can see community interest dropping out rapidly. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
If real game modes don't come by fanfest there will be a serious risk of this game losing it's current playerbase and having nothing to replace it with. |
Liner ReXiandra
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
While I am not as committed to the game as heavily as Nova Knife here, but I feel the same way - and I think more people do. When Chromosome got pushed, I once again rallied some buddies to try Dust 514 again that have tried the beta from fairly early on. Their response was:
"are the graphics still poor and are the vehicle controls still laughable?"
I could not tell them that both of those issues have resolved within the beta over the course of what.. 9 months(?) or so.
It's hard to stay hyped and rally others for this game with the development rate up to now. With Chromosome came the mention that the team would step up the content rollout / increase number of devblogs / more communication.
Well, we've had a few game shows and Chinese newyear which takes some time out of things, but we havn't seen a devblog yet, content that gets pushed breaks more things than it fixes, and where are the CSM Dust 514 session notes? |
tribal wyvern
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
675
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
I read the whole post, in my opinion it wasn't long enough lol. Nova does raise some very valid points.
As a long term player of dust (almost a year) i too have supported dust from the start and have also been following dust since it was announced back in 09, and unfortnatly I have to agree with every issue pointed out here.
That does not mean I will be giving up on this title, I just hope things improve for the better. Ccp, if you don't read nova's post and take heed then you're damn fools, you have to listen to the issues that matter instead of following up on all the 'this is op' and 'nerf this' threads because while you are trying to cater for EVERYONE.......you are breaking this game. Prioritize !!
Great post nova  |
mollerz
s1ck3r Corp
71
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 07:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
IT's easy to become bored when there are few options. I guess it would be nice to know when the next big update is planned at the least. The same old bugs over and over impeding gameplay gets pretty old. At least fix some bugs and maybe toss us a content bone here and there to spice it up.
Just look at the general forums. with the take over stuff. That's classic boredom. There's nothing new to talk about because we've told them over and over and over what the worst bugs are. Yet they remain. At least give us new bugs to bi-complain-tch about.
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Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
328
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 09:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP has spent a lot of time just trying to produce the game we see.
The game we see is pretty sad.
Small maps, small player counts, flat weapons/armor and ZERO metagame.
Why is this game worth playing?
Right now, I can't really come up with a reason other than my corpmates.
GetGoodGäó CCP. |
Monkxx
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 09:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
+1, Nova.
You took the words out of my head and put them into nice well-written letter without curses
BUT, you forgot to mention that Dust514 is developed by CCP Shanghai - new company which has no experience in developing AAA console shooters.
Also, can someone name any decent First Person Shooters developed by Chinese? 
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Panther Alpha
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 12:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
I finally found the courage to read through all that, was a bit to long. 
It is interesting to hear the views of some one, that had been involved in the game from the start. It seems to me that has been a bit of a roller coaster, for both CCP, and the closed beta fans.
As someone that have just joined the " Party ", i will say, that the game is not that bad. Yes it needs some polishing, and some more details. But overall, the concept have some great potential.
My biggest consent about Dust 514, is the FPS elements. In my opinion, it is some very "Serious" balance issues, that needs to be address SooN. I think is time for CCP, to start focusing in balancing the First Person Shooter components in the game.
I can see, and understand, what Dust 514 will be in the future, as an integrated part of the EvE universe, and i think is great idea. But Dust 514 NEEDS to be a FPS first, and a RTS / RPG game secondly.
I guess what i trying to say is : CCP, focus in the FPS balance, before you do anything else.
Peace |
mollerz
s1ck3r Corp
71
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 13:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:
I guess what i trying to say is : CCP, focus in the FPS balance, before you do anything else.
Peace
how can they balance it until they kill most of the bugs? I think the priority is get everything working solid first. then work on balance. They could balance everything out, fix bugs- and that will radically change some things (especially sniping), and then they will have to balance it all over again. |
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Kleanur Guy
SyNergy Gaming
154
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 14:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Excellent post. +1 |
lordjanuz
Norwegian Dust514 Corporation
88
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 16:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
+1 I read it all and it was spot on, I have also been playing this game for over 10 months now, and you did put words on what many feels right now.
In the beginning it was kind a fun with the SOON comment on all we asked about, but after so long time it has just begun to be a excuse, I was on the Fanfest last year and nearly nothing talked about then have we seen in the game.
Now its just about grinding ISK and SP , and we have 2 modes .
Ambush = Deathmatch
Skirmish = Semi Deathmatch take points and kill everyone.
The maps are way to small, only small variation in tactics, go longer kill everyone, go shorter kill everyone, check salvage, check ISK and Check SP.
We would like to se new things over the hills, be able to move troops with dropship on a distance, not like now , we run faster, and use DS as scouts.
Dust 514 should be the game that stands out, taking risk , explore new things, let us have it CCP.
Question :
1. what can we expect to be implented next build.
2. what is to come at the summer.
3. what is not coming this year
No more SOON , just give us the facts, and a response on from CCP that this thread have been read.
And dont give me the game is free and CCP dont have to give us anything, CCP is as depended of us as we are of them, and that the game is free is not a exuse for making a poor game.
Read a post today from a gaming magazine, " I logged in and it looked advanced and exiting, logged in a game and it was just a poor fps.......
CCP just make the game you planned , have faith, thats what many are looking for, something DIFFERENT. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 18:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
I am sad and angry because this is all true. |
Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
328
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 19:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Good post fanboi.
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Tiel Syysch
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 19:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Yep.
I have been jokingly saying CCP doesn't play the same game we do, but man, seriously, it really doesn't feel like they play the game at all with how disconnected they are with issues we bring up. They just seem so dumbfounded by some of this stuff, when it's like "it took me 8 seconds of playtime to see this, and there's literally no play style I can think of that could not have experienced this, and it's been happening for months now" kind of issues.
The lack of progress content-wise is really killing things, too. We were told they gave us what we needed in this current build for those new weapons from the tournament wallpaper unlocks and that they could stream them to us when they had them working or whatever was the reason we couldn't have them right away. It's been almost 2 months into this build now, and still no sign of them coming.
Builds are taking longer, and progress per build is slowing down. |
Coyskurk
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 19:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Liek dis if you crai every time D;... Just kidding. But seriously this post is the one post, in my honest opinion, that CCP needs to THOROUGHLY read MANY times through. I, also a fanboy, have started to get fed up with the small amount of progress being made by CCP. They're crossing the street too slowly and the car is closing in fast. |
Cyn Bruin
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
653
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 19:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
Good post Nova, I do hope the people that can affect some of these decisions read it and take it to heart.
As an addition to your post... You stated 2 of the builds were backend and dealt with some network issues. We are still experiencing these issues in this build.
We still have alot of rubberbanding (our characters skip forward/backward because of network connection), terrain that is still choppy and uneven (characters get stuck on flat surfaces), hit detection is still off (character shows blue shields which indicates a HIT but takes no damage), etc etc.
The "we are still in beta" is getting old since we've been in CLOSED beta for close to a year and havent seen much progress. Some of the issues we are still dealing with are fundamental to an FPS. Hit Detection and Network Connectivity being 2 HUGE ones.
CCP, you are not dealing with PC gamers with this game. FPS players are a different breed and lose attention fast if a game doesn't have certain basic functionality. I seriously hope you have an elephant in the hat instead of a rabbit, because alot of magic is going to be needed to get this on the right track.
PLEASE... Surprise us.
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Cat Merc
Systems Federation
Coalition of Galactic Unity
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 20:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
I called it when I said that the game isn't ready for open beta.
This ISN'T a good first impression, and by this rate, it will never give a good impression.
CCP, listen to Nova Knife, this is a good post. |
Matobar
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
123
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 20:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
People who have no experience as game developers complaining about the game development of DUST 514. Sounds good man. |
Schazla
WarRavens
159
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 20:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nice post Goblin.
+1 |
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