DUST Search - Forge Guns OP? Not sure but here is some thoughts.

Radar R4D-47 wrote:

1) Accuracy Stability Issues-a free fire weapon of the caliber should not be pinpoint accurate that way it can only hit large targets not fast moving ground targets strafing to and fro.

It's a long range AV sniper rifle. That's the point. That's why using a FG isn't an immediate death sentence.

2) Removal of splash damage- This makes it impact only which makes sense to me if you get hit by something of that size and speed i don't care how much armor you have it should kill you.

It already deals obscene direct damage. The splash is to make it consistent with other large rail weapons and so, once again, it isn't completely useless against infantry.

3) Limitations to DS as the swarm launchers are able to make ridiculous motions to follow a moving dropship i believe them perfect for DS because it takes time for them to reach targets you have to take time to lock on DS are given a warning notice they are being targeted and cannot be used against infantry, however a FG has none of the previously state limitations therefore having a damage reduction only applicable to the DS would be ideal and make it more fair for everybody

Infantry don't get warning from the guy with a Sniper Rifle either, but you don't see CCP giving infantry a resistance to sniper rifles. If you really want to complain about this, then go cry to the rail tanks and rail installations too. they deal even more damage than the Forge Gun does. Perhaps the dropship could be notified of a rail-charge-up, but anything else is seriously pushing it.

4) Here is a more drastic look that could **** people off:
ill stick to the standard but here is my changes to attempt to balance it
Direct Damage 1200-1200
Splash Damage 210-210
Blast Radius 2.5-2.5
Charge up Time 3.5-5.5

That's almost how long it takes for the HMG to reload. It would make the gun absolutely pointless. If you were going to do this, then the gun damn well better be able to one-shot everything but proto level tanks or it'll be absolutely terrible.

Clip Size 4-1 (yes only 1)

If you honestly believe this is a good idea, then I have lost all hope in your common sense.

Reload Speed (I don't know what its current reload speed is but cut it down to 1/4th the time)

Yay, I can fire my forge gun once in the time it takes for the HMG to reload. This is beyond terrible. Even if you are cutting down on the reload time, the DPS is still so beyond laughable that it doesn't even matter.

Max Ammo 16-8

FGs already run out of ammo quickly as of now. Halfing it will just make them sit next to Supply Depots all the time.

Cpu/PG unchanged
This gives pilots and operaters time to react to a FG not to remove its usefulness as a AV
I have some other variations that you could do instead but this i feel could make its current physics make sense. I'm curious as to see your thoughts.

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DropKickSuicide Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 74	Posted - 2013.02.13 09:56:00 - [31] - Quote Radar R4D-47 wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: says the guy who camped a mountain with Officer Snipers. That's right I remember you...please tell me the militia submachine gun is OP too! The fact that you have one of the most Powerful weapons in the game at your disposal, one that can decimate heavies wielding a forge gun, and you call them OP? I just find that....unsettling. Wow really your going to take me back to my first month of dust were i didn't know anything i haven't even gotten to c if a thale has been changed or not if it hasnt there definetly needs to be a change. But i dnt know how to start on that weapon i have given my thoughts to this one and want to c what u would try to change so dropships can become a legitimate vehicle to use Please make use of Punctiuation, it makes you look less not smart. Example: FG is fine to use you just need to get good and stop being an easy target when you make predictible moves or sit still it makes my job much easyer to complete Correct Example: FG is not "OP", you just need to get good and stop being an easy Target. When you make predictable moves or just sit still, you make My job much easyer to accomplish
Radar R4D-47 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 0	Posted - 2013.02.13 10:31:00 - [32] - Quote Thank you dropkick for the unrelated side note to my lack of english skills. I was mad the community is not understanding the whole point of the thread. Im not whining about forge guns. My friend likes this game because he can fly a dropship (weird another human with the animialistic instinct to want to fly possibly a major selling point of the game) however, if i hop in the dropship with him we run the field for about 30 to 45 seconds swarms start to appear. Well no problem someone using a weapon for its purpose. Kudos to you militia swarm launcher. Other then the swarm launchers ridiculous turn rate, Swarm laurnchers ARE the most balanced weapon in the game. Is role in the game is strictly Anti-material. Forge Guns were put in the game to be anti-material used to counter tanks because the swarms follow speed was easy for a tank to dodge. However when used against a dropship it DECIMATES THE USEFULNESS of a dropship in every given way. Not only does it severely alter the direction of the dropships movement (causing most to hit buildings in urban enviornments causing instant death) but it also is too easy to free fire. Anyone who tells me different is lying. I use them on my av class because its too ridiculously easy you lead a target and fire dropships cannot change course with enough time for you to drastically realign your shot and tanks are tanks; large, slow moving, death machines. The difference between the two if fitted equally is usually 2x the amount of Hp not to mention a much better armor/shield rep. Im happy there is a legitimate weapon a tank can fear but that same weapon makes it impossible for a dropship to survive. Were I am mad is i offered a mold of how to change it or to make it balanced versus a dropship and the ridiculous immaturity known as the Dust community scoffed and said oh just another whining baby. Instead of taking my mold or ideas and sculpting them into viable information for a developer to actually read and say "oh' that is exactly what we should do" instead of going through the garbage forums we have here sorting through the trash and coming up empty. The thread was created for someone to come in and say "Radar you are completely wrong Forge guns are no OP look at these facts..." or for someone to say "I think your right but mabye the changes should be..." Not.. Polish Hammer Leave the Forge Guns alone. Last time a select few got all bent out of shape about them, they nerf'd the damage to where they were pointless to use. Tanks had a damn frenzy. Nothing is needed to do to the Forge Guns. End of story. Which weapon is next on the QQ "IT'S OP" list? if that's your reaction to a feedback thread keep your mouth shut and stay in general discussion. A feedback/request topic is meant for the developers so they don't have to sort through the garbage on general but our great dust community is making there job as difficult as possible. Post your comments accordingly.
CarloArmato2991 RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 20	Posted - 2013.02.13 10:44:00 - [33] - Quote I think that reducing the speed of the shot fired would be the best solution to prevent this "Dropship ****"... If you get hit by a slow anti-materia sphere, than you deserve to die
DropKickSuicide Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 74	Posted - 2013.02.13 10:45:00 - [34] - Quote In your OP you make it sound more like a QQ "NERF THIS ****" then an actual Balencing Post. Now what you suggested in the OP is to basically make all FG into Brach FG, Cut the Damage in 1/2, and Take away our Ammo. Now I do agree that DropShips are to easily taken down, BUT that is no reason to point at the FG. You should always look to Buff 1st then Nerf what ever kills you most. Dropships could use more HP/Shields for sure, 2 hits and most DS are good as dead. This is NOT the FGs fualt nor should the FG be blamed, the FG does exactly what it should and has plenty of drawbacks to Balance it out. Next time you find something "OP" try it for yourself and try to think of a way to Buff against it enstead of Nerfing it.
Ltd HARRISON Nagashima Heavy Industries and Shipping Toad Migration at Dusk 10	Posted - 2013.02.13 16:51:00 - [35] - Quote Radar R4D-47 wrote: I'm happy there is a legitimate weapon a tank can fear but that same weapon makes it impossible for a dropship to survive. And this is why you really don't want the FG to be nerved but the DS to be buffed. All your suggestions would give the tankers a free ride and make the FG useless, because it wouldn't be a rock to anything...
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 907	Posted - 2013.02.13 17:16:00 - [36] - Quote Again, nerfing the forge gun is not how you help dropships. You end up with a tank imbalance. You need to INCREASE the FLIGHT CEILING of the dropship so it can use it's vertical capabilities to avoid fire. People need to stop trying to nerf everything and try to fix what is actually causing the issues.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 907	Posted - 2013.02.13 17:18:00 - [37] - Quote CarloArmato2991 wrote: I think that reducing the speed of the shot fired would be the best solution to prevent this "Dropship ****"... If you get hit by a slow anti-materia sphere, than you deserve to die This will probably be the domain of the Plasma Cannon. You already have to lead targets considerable when shooting at good dropship pilots.
chevere del'Piso Solarise Flares Get Off My Lawn 4	Posted - 2013.02.13 17:19:00 - [38] - Quote Also take a look at the mini guns, perfect accuracy from ranges as far as sniper rifles... with almost the same amount of damage... I would suggest, faster over heating (like the turrets) or exponentially decreased accuracy at long ranges....
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 907	Posted - 2013.02.13 17:22:00 - [39] - Quote chevere del'Piso wrote: decreased accuracy at long ranges.... I agree with this. Increase the spread of the HMG fire at rang and you pretty much fix the issue.
Karajix Lakshmi IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 0	Posted - 2013.02.13 17:31:00 - [40] - Quote so far, I can take 4 shots from a forge gun. I have the last DS with good shield skills. The problem I see you having is that your not spec'd into drop ships. What makes the DS so versatile is the Afterburner. Any pilot who is skilled with DS's will have one fit. If you don't have one fit, there's no way in hell your going to last the whole match with the same drop ship. Invest in one past the starter DS. The gorgon kite fit will be hard to hit by nearly everything...just make sure to put AB and Mobile CRU highs, and lows need Jovian thruster mods on lows.

pegasis prime The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries 81	Posted - 2013.02.13 17:52:00 - [41] - Quote Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote: Here's a video of a guy with a forge gun killing people, including LAVs, infantry, and dropships, from both at short and long range, while strafing, moving at full speed away, or while standing still. I'd love to hear what you would have done differently that would have rendered him unable to kill you. Are you daft thats an old build and a proto forge gun so no bloddy wonder he was rockin
RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2013.02.13 18:33:00 - [42] - Quote Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote: The issue isn't that a forge gun can kill a dropship, it's that it can conceivably kill a dropship with the dropship having no recourse There was a thread where people worked out that a decent forge gun loadout does about 3500 damage per shot. With a Myron fit for nothing but tank you can have about 4000 shield hitpoints. No afterburners, no CRUs, nothin' but extenders. That's the only way to not get insta-blapped in a dropship. And you can do this from anywhere, before the dropship pilot has any way to even know there's a forge gun on the field. The range is essentially unlimited, and it's incredibly accurate. I've seen videos of people using forge guns, and the stuff they can do is pretty crazy, and pretty unpleasant to watch as a pilot. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482656#post482656
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.13 20:11:00 - [43] - Quote The issue is that we have a FG,HAV,DS combination to balance. The HAV naturally has more HP than a DS, so a FG that is balanced against the HAV is going to decimate the DS. To fix that you could buff he HP of the DS, but then you end up with a flying tank (minus the large turret of course). That approach may be required if you want the DS to have a battlefield role such as remote shield transfer where it has to fly low and slow. OTH, you could increase its survivability in other ways such as making them more responsive/nimble and removing the absurd flight ceiling. Add an accurate position map and it might then be able to deliver troops without getting in harms way of the FG by dropping them from altitude. What CCP Blam! Needs to do is review each mission he envisions for the DS and evaluate what would make that mission viable. In battle remote shield support? Well you could greatly increase the range of the module to allow the DS to stay in cover, or you could give it HP equivalent to the HAV it is supporting, or you could allow it to rep while cloaked. It's basically the option to tank or evade the damage. Don't give us a mission that the DS can't perform. Don't lure us out into a hot battlefield with no way to tank or evade the FG, blaster installation, or HAV turret. EDIT: CCP could add threat detection to the DS to allow us to avoid danger. I've used the FG and noticed that it's kicking out some serious emissions when charged. It's got to be easy to spot that profile and paint it on the map. An angry red pulsing dot on my map would clue me in not to loiter at low altitude in that vicinity. Those emissions would be diminished by some degree by terrain, so HAV's may not pick up on it as well as a DS could. If a SL locks on passively we wouldn't get a lock-on warning, but we could easily get a launch warning. The heat signature and movement profile of SL missiles would be quite distinct and easy to track. While I'm not opposed to more HP, I'm more in favor of systems that allow a good pilot to avoid danger rather than just sit and tank it all.
Jotun Hiem Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 412	Posted - 2013.02.13 20:34:00 - [44] - Quote Radar R4D-47 wrote: 1) Accuracy Stability Issues-a free fire weapon of the caliber should not be pinpoint accurate that way it can only hit large targets not fast moving ground targets strafing to and fro. It's a long range AV sniper rifle. That's the point. That's why using a FG isn't an immediate death sentence. 2) Removal of splash damage- This makes it impact only which makes sense to me if you get hit by something of that size and speed i don't care how much armor you have it should kill you. It already deals obscene direct damage. The splash is to make it consistent with other large rail weapons and so, once again, it isn't completely useless against infantry. 3) Limitations to DS as the swarm launchers are able to make ridiculous motions to follow a moving dropship i believe them perfect for DS because it takes time for them to reach targets you have to take time to lock on DS are given a warning notice they are being targeted and cannot be used against infantry, however a FG has none of the previously state limitations therefore having a damage reduction only applicable to the DS would be ideal and make it more fair for everybody Infantry don't get warning from the guy with a Sniper Rifle either, but you don't see CCP giving infantry a resistance to sniper rifles. If you really want to complain about this, then go cry to the rail tanks and rail installations too. they deal even more damage than the Forge Gun does. Perhaps the dropship could be notified of a rail-charge-up, but anything else is seriously pushing it. 4) Here is a more drastic look that could ** people off: ill stick to the standard but here is my changes to attempt to balance it Direct Damage 1200-1200 Splash Damage 210-210 Blast Radius 2.5-2.5 Charge up Time 3.5-5.5 That's almost how long it takes for the HMG to reload. It would make the gun absolutely pointless. If you were going to do this, then the gun damn well better be able to one-shot everything but proto level tanks or it'll be absolutely terrible. Clip Size 4-1 (yes only 1) If you honestly believe this is a good idea, then I have lost all hope in your common sense. Reload Speed (I don't know what its current reload speed is but cut it down to 1/4th the time) Yay, I can fire my forge gun once in the time it takes for the HMG to reload. This is beyond terrible. Even if you are cutting down on the reload time, the DPS is still so beyond laughable that it doesn't even matter. Max Ammo 16-8 FGs already run out of ammo quickly as of now. Halfing it will just make them sit next to Supply Depots all the time.** Cpu/PG unchanged This gives pilots and operaters time to react to a FG not to remove its usefulness as a AV I have some other variations that you could do instead but this i feel could make its current physics make sense. I'm curious as to see your thoughts. You have proposed no good changes. You clearly do not understand how forge guns work or how to properly pilot a dropship. You do not pass Go, you do not collect 200 ISK. And no, I don't play AV heavy, although I did pre-open beta.
Radar R4D-47 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 0	Posted - 2013.02.14 12:31:00 - [45] - Quote Jotun Hiem wrote: You have proposed no good changes. You clearly do not understand how forge guns work or how to properly pilot a dropship. You do not pass Go, you do not collect 200 ISK. And no, I don't play AV heavy, although I did pre-open beta. Finally, other then your closing statement someone has finally done exactly what i hoped the dust community was capable of critiquing anothers work to show what is wrong/right with it so Kudos Jotun now i would be happy to see you post your changes or why you would not change the forge gun instead of putting a uncalled for remark at your close. I saw more post that actually pertain to the topic at hand i please ask you all the continue debating and maybe throw in your own stats that you would give a standard forge gun along with its traits such as accuracy.


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