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Why Light Side Logi is more profitable than Dark Side Logi.

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Mithridates VI New Eden Research Foundation 161	Posted - 2013.02.07 22:58:00 - [1] - Quote There seems to be a school of thought which is in favour of playing Logistics for personal profit at a cost to team support. I'm putting my disagreement with this in the training ground because I think it's important that new players who want to go logi work this out before they decide that screwing over their team is in their best interests. What I'm going to call the Dark Side Logi operates on a number of self-serving principles, including but not limited to: Opportunities to repair are given up in order to gain the +60 revive when teammates fall, whether it's in their best interests to get back up or not (hell, if you stick around, maybe you can pick them up again). Reppers are put away once the point cap for healing is reached and guns come out until the cap expires. +50 point kills are preferred to the +35 guardian bonus you get for healing someone while they kill. It seems to me that this position can be attacked from a number of different angles. Leaving aside the "it's nice to help your team out" hypothesis, the "you're actually building a reputation as bad support" angle and the "soon there will be friendly fire and if you revive me one more time I will feed you a grenade" argument, I'll assume that we're dealing with moral nihilists who only speak in SP/WP/ISK, otherwise known as "Disregard Teammates, Acquire Currency". Thing is, your team is actually worth more points while they're alive. They're like big bags of never-ending points and you can either stab the points out of them with an ill-considered needling and get short-term gain, losing future points, or you can gently coax the points from them like a snake charmer with a kick-ass magic flute or something. A living heavy with low health will give a stream of triage bonuses as you bring them back to full. Seriously. "Triage +25" flashes on your screen so hard you'll have an epileptic fit... OF JOY. Fire that repper at people whose armor is almost full, too, takes you hardly any time and it might milk more points out of them. The guardian bonus is preferable to taking kills yourself because a decent heavy with a healer attached will kill a much greater number of enemies than a logi with an AR and a dead heavy behind him. If you're enough of a god that you can kill more reds than the big guy with the HMG, you're probably good enough that you can keep him alive while you do it. I'll sometimes quick-switch from guardian to blast someone's face off but only if I'm sure the heavy can survive not having my attention for a few seconds. Can you get both kill assist and guardian on the same person? I don't even know but if you can, that would also be an acceptable reason for firing a couple of shots before going back to healing. Even once your healing stops being a source of points, you still need living friendlies because you should have nanohives set up everywhere. Like, literally everywhere. Your PS3 is crashing under the weight of rendering your millions of nanohives. Live allies run through those nanohives and whether they think they need more ammo or not, you get a team supply bonus (and the extra bullets they have to defend you later, when everyone's in your base killing your dudes, are just an added benefit). Restock nanohives at supply depots and leave them in well-traveled walkways. The more teammates who are running around, the greater your points for supplying them. There are probably more reasons why being a jerk healer is ridiculous and if I think of them, I'll let you know. Hey! If you know other reasons, you could even share them here. I'm not territorial or anything about this thread. I'm going back to basking in the glory of endless points for giving people bullets they don't even want and healing papercuts on giant mechanical space soldiers.
Tac Com Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. 41	Posted - 2013.02.08 01:21:00 - [2] - Quote The point may have been wrapped up in some personal hate and issues with poor Logis. That said, I do agree. While often your K/D won't be stellar and record breaking, your WP goes through the roof as a proper Logi. The amount of Triage, Guardian, and Resupply points brings you a ton of WP. And often you'll be in a good position to revive your teammates aswell after threats have been cleared so those revival points are nice aswell. Aside from the personal bonus, the feeling of being a key member in your team's victory is always a nice feeling in my books. You just happen to be rewarded well for doing so :)
Mithridates VI New Eden Research Foundation 161	Posted - 2013.02.08 01:31:00 - [3] - Quote Tac Com wrote: The point may have been wrapped up in some personal hate and issues with poor Logis. 'fraid not. Perhaps it came across that way because the parts which were intended to be silly were read as being serious? I don't much care if other Logis are good or not... I'm running with randoms who fire their assault rifles at the enemy MCC, so bad Logis wouldn't be on top of my list of things to rage at even if I were so inclined. If you feel like reading it again, please understand that terms like "self-serving" are applied totally sans-malice... which is why the post was geared towards explaining why it's better to work with your team purely from a points perspective. I'm totally cool with people not caring about their team. Just thought I'd point out that even if you don't, it's still a better plan to heal them.
Tac Com Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. 41	Posted - 2013.02.08 01:44:00 - [4] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: Tac Com wrote: The point may have been wrapped up in some personal hate and issues with poor Logis. 'fraid not. Perhaps it came across that way because the parts which were intended to be silly were read as being serious? I don't much care if other Logis are good or not... I'm running with randoms who fire their assault rifles at the enemy MCC, so bad Logis wouldn't be on top of my list of things to rage at even if I were so inclined. If you feel like reading it again, please understand that terms like "self-serving" are applied totally sans-malice... which is why the post was geared towards explaining why it's better to work with your team purely from a points perspective. I'm totally cool with people not caring about their team. Just thought I'd point out that even if you don't, it's still a better plan to heal them. I see, but do understand that this is the written word and context and tone are hard to convey. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. To focus on the topic again, I would also like to remind that you should never go too far in one direction or the other. If you have your repair gun out all the time even while everyone is at full health "just incase," then you may be hurting your team as you might spot someone but not be ready to take that oppertunistic kill. Also when someone is down, reviving them ISN'T your top priority, making sure the site is clear is, then revival becomes your top priority. Playing Logi is a balance between adding to the team offence and keeping your teammates alive. Making sure you have buddies beside you though is often higher on the priority list then killing but don't forget you have a gun either.
Mithridates VI New Eden Research Foundation 161	Posted - 2013.02.08 01:53:00 - [5] - Quote Tac Com wrote: I see, but do understand that this is the written word and context and tone are hard to convey. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. No, I understand. That's why I offered the clarification. Tac Com wrote: To focus on the topic again, I would also like to remind that you should never go too far in one direction or the other. If you have your repair gun out all the time even while everyone is at full health "just incase," then you may be hurting your team as you might spot someone but not be ready to take that oppertunistic kill. Also when someone is down, reviving them ISN'T your top priority, making sure the site is clear is, then revival becomes your top priority. Playing Logi is a balance between adding to the team offence and keeping your teammates alive. Making sure you have buddies beside you though is often higher on the priority list then killing but don't forget you have a gun either. Yeah, I definitely agree with all of that. I didn't include more general "how to Logi" because other Logi guides do the same more effectively but it doesn't hurt to have a reminder. Main thing I wanted to raise here was that "Logi best practice" doesn't change whether you're aiming for points or for team victory.
Soldiersaint Reaper Galactic 5	Posted - 2013.02.08 17:27:00 - [6] - Quote Im not pulling my repair back out until they get rid of the stupid cap that stops you from scoring while you heal people. That is just trash.I love playing medic but until they get rid of the stupid sp cap on the repair tool im not going to use it. Call me a jerk if you want but im tired of it.
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 13	Posted - 2013.02.08 17:45:00 - [7] - Quote also, don't run off like a banshee once revived, I'm trying to heal you moron so you don't die again. Wait 5 seconds to get fragged again, please stop with the squirrel mentality. I'm revived.. oooh squirrel, shoot 'em... I'm dead... I'm alive.... squirrel!
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 371	Posted - 2013.02.08 18:07:00 - [8] - Quote Soldiersaint wrote: Im not pulling my repair back out until they get rid of the stupid cap that stops you from scoring while you heal people. That is just trash.I love playing medic but until they get rid of the stupid sp cap on the repair tool im not going to use it. Call me a jerk if you want but im tired of it. They capped repairing coz people were crashing LAV's and WP farming, so stop complaining and start repping your team mates
Booby Tuesdays THE DOLLARS 13	Posted - 2013.02.08 19:11:00 - [9] - Quote This could be called True Teammate Logi vs True Mercenary Logi. What motivates you, helping others, or pursuit of the almighty ISK? Either way, you can stack some serious chips.
Soldiersaint Reaper Galactic 5	Posted - 2013.02.15 19:52:00 - [10] - Quote You know what your right. Ive been really selfish up to this point and I think its time i changed that. sorry about that.

Jack Sharkey42 Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 18	Posted - 2013.02.15 20:18:00 - [11] - Quote There are few feelings as awesome as reviving someone, healing them, and then watching them run off and tear through 5 people. Like watching your kids go to school lol
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.02.15 22:21:00 - [12] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: +50 point kills are preferred to the +35 guardian bonus you get for healing someone while they kill. Assist and a guardian bonus is +55. Even better, guardian + kill + revive (harder to do)= 115 Also +1 for the swtor reference
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.02.16 11:42:00 - [13] - Quote gbghg wrote: Soldiersaint wrote: Im not pulling my repair back out until they get rid of the stupid cap that stops you from scoring while you heal people. That is just trash.I love playing medic but until they get rid of the stupid sp cap on the repair tool im not going to use it. Call me a jerk if you want but im tired of it. They capped repairing coz people were crashing LAV's and WP farming, so stop complaining and start repping your team mates ....and then they added time based SP gains just for being in match allowing players to deploy in the base/MCC and gain SP while afk... So the limitations on the Repair Tool remain to prevent a form of SP farming which is now more effort than using the basic mechanic CCP has created Regarding that cap, it's worth noting that not only are you capped from gaining more than X WPs within Y time span but also your teammate must have damaged an enemy within X time of when you rep or you will gain 0 WP regardless of the cap, so there are a couple limiters in play currently. And all of that on top of the broken iteration for Repair Tools / Nanoinjectors which causes the higher quality gear to give a lower potential ceiling for WP gains. More on that here. I'm one of those Logis who still ran with, and used, my Repair Tool even when CCP had removed all WP awards from them. Which is to say I agree with the theme of the OP but it's worth noting that we'd have a lot stronger Logi support in game if the systems by which Logis earned the WP/SP/ISK were more balanced/reasonable. Right now those systems require improvements, the absence of which promotes a less team/squad oriented form of game play from many who deploy Logistics. 0.02 ISK Cross
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion 154	Posted - 2013.02.16 12:11:00 - [14] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: This could be called True Teammate Logi vs True Mercenary Logi. What motivates you, helping others, or pursuit of the almighty ISK? Either way, you can stack some serious chips. The problem is this mercenary mentality, whilst applicable in EVE, is not as tolerated in dust because teamwork is integral to success.
KalOfTheRathi CowTek 168	Posted - 2013.02.17 06:01:00 - [15] - Quote What wins matches is not losing clones. I routinely rep everybody close by regardless of the points. And I will follow a random Heavy anytime. Sooner or later the +25s will start to roll as will the +35 guardians. Two of those are much safer than getting one +60 revive under many circumstances. The rep cap doesn't bother me. I just do what I can to win the match. For the NewB Logi Bro here is the math. Follow a Heavy and drop a Hive. +10 ammo resupply every time he returns. +25 triage when jacking his armor back up. A 650 Armor Heavy can net you 100 WP easily. +35 guardian is earned if you are armor repping while he is taking damage. Two at a time is common for me. A simple run supporting a reasonable (non-suicidal Heavy) can easily gain the Logi Bro 200 WP. Do the Math. Support a Heavy. When one isn't around, support the rest of the squad. Clear the area and do a revive when you can. OP, while I understand your effort at light versus dark humor a shorter essay with less artistic vision would have been more effective I suspect. Given that the initial responses were not consistent with what you thought you were conveying anyway.
Mithridates VI New Eden Research Foundation 161	Posted - 2013.02.18 00:15:00 - [16] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Which is to say I agree with the theme of the OP but it's worth noting that we'd have a lot stronger Logi support in game if the systems by which Logis earned the WP/SP/ISK were more balanced/reasonable. Right now those systems require improvements, the absence of which promotes a less team/squad oriented form of game play from many who deploy Logistics. Yeah, I'd definitely like to see the reward system for Logis worked on, but it still seems to be that the less squad oriented form of gameplay leads to less WP than does the type of Logi play where you keep your team alive even while capped and get WP out of them in different ways.
Osiris Ausare Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 4	Posted - 2013.02.18 00:19:00 - [17] - Quote I understand what the OP is saying, but what puzzles me is the person who says they wouldn't continue repping if there is a cap. If you play logi well (repping teammates, being a guardian for a heavy or any other player, providing cover-fire when teammates are hurt, clearing the area of enemies so you can properly revive a team member, or provide extra ammo you can make a lot of WP as the comment above me was breaking down). Furthermore a good logi can also be a good squad leader which brings in even more WP, in fact, in my opinion logibros make the best squad leaders because we spend so much time analyzing the battlefield, figuring out how to keep our teammates alive and how to fight the enemy. With that combination a logi is a perfect squad leader (I know that is going off topic but it fits, because you can continue to make WP by being a leader: squad commission, % increase in WP received and orbital strikes which are one of the best ways to help your team and potentially save them). Furthermore, as previous comments have mentioned it feels great to be a logibro, knowing you are keeping your squad going or as Jack Sharkey42 pointed out rezing and repping a teammate who not only gets revenge but goes on a massive kill streak. Logibros are a quintessential component of a team and KDR is not everything. In fact my best game I went 0/0 (I did have a few kill assists) and helped push my entire squad to the top, pulling the rest of the team with us to victory. That was an amazing feeling. Well that is all for now, I raise a glass to all of my fellow logibros and wish them good luck in battle.
Mithridates VI New Eden Research Foundation 161	Posted - 2013.02.18 00:21:00 - [18] - Quote Yeah, the OP was in response to reading a lot of posts and talking to a number of Logis who were of the mind that there was more WP in letting people die and then reviving them than there is in keeping them alive. If you're a Logi because you want your team to win, the OP doesn't really apply to you.
Osiris Ausare Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 4	Posted - 2013.02.18 00:24:00 - [19] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: Yeah, the OP was in response to reading a lot of posts and talking to a number of Logis who were of the mind that there was more WP in letting people die and then reviving them than there is in keeping them alive. If you're a Logi because you want your team to win, the OP doesn't really apply to you. Which is really really sad. I wish people wouldn't do that because it would give the rest of us a bad reputation and further increase this greedy mentality. This is the first time I've hear or seen this and it really frustrates me. :(
Jack Of Evermore KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 3	Posted - 2013.02.18 04:38:00 - [20] - Quote As a lifelong Logi I don't think I ever would let someone go down just for the WP. Now many a time I have revived someone to have them be splattered sometimes even 2 to 3 times in a row but it happens that way. I feel it is some times better to go for the revive. Even the basic injector gives them 30% armor faster then I could ever rep them and if I have the choice between securing the area and reviving 2 dead Heaves at my feet IGÇÖd bring them both back in the middle of the O.K. Corral reping be damned. It's just a matter of judgment and triage. But one thought on the rep WP I wish the cap was based on each clone if each other player I rep so I can get some for each person not just shut down cold, just a thought. If you are planning on playing a support role you probaly will never be top on K/D but you will never be more satistfied then when you end a match at the #1 top of the board with 0/4 and 1800 WP over someone with 22/1 and 1000

The-Last-Ninja FIND CARL CORP 34	Posted - 2013.02.18 05:21:00 - [21] - Quote I had to stop at "Reppers are put away once the point cap for healing is reached and guns come out until the cap expires." so I could post this and ask... There's actually a limit to how many points someone can earn from repairing teammates' armor? If so, why did CCP do that? Exactly how is that a good idea?
Mithridates VI New Eden Research Foundation 161	Posted - 2013.02.18 17:47:00 - [22] - Quote I believe they capped WP from repair because people were exploiting it by repairing vehicles they or their teammates had damaged for that purpose. Hopefully it's a temporary solution. Would be nice if they could just track how much friendly damage and how much enemy damage a suit/vehicle has sustained and only reward the repair of damage from enemies.
Viral-23 Dead Six Initiative 4	Posted - 2013.02.18 18:29:00 - [23] - Quote I'll testify to this thread. Repair Tool Logi's work so much better than Nano Injector Logi's.
J4yne C0bb DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2013.02.18 23:43:00 - [24] - Quote Jack Of Evermore wrote: If you are planning on playing a support role you probaly will never be top on K/D but you will never be more satistfied then when you end a match at the #1 top of the board with 0/4 and 1800 WP over someone with 22/1 and 1000 Testify, my logibro. Testify.
Jadanza Harkness Algintal Core Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.02.19 02:22:00 - [25] - Quote I totally agree with the OP. I broke 1,500 WP one match with a K/D of 3/9! My K/D is almost always below 50% but I'm often in the top 5 for WP at the end of the match.


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