DUST Search - Why bother driving a Tank? How they need to be Fixed.

Mobius Wyvern wrote:

Landari Zeta wrote:

I love tanks. I really do. I have one problem about them though.

They aren't OP.

You are all probably thinking, "Wow what a tard, wanting OP tanks!"
Everything else is OP, why not have the tanks scale up with the rest of everything?

Lets think about it for a minute. A tank should be an Infantry Support vehicle. It should make a presence on the battlefield, forcing infantry to take cover and call in their own tanks to kill you.

During WWII the Sherman tank was meant to keep infantry huddled up in a corner until they can call in some air support or have a Tiger take it out. That is how tanks should be handled, like they were originally designed. Every German soldier didn't have an Anti-Tank rocket, why should everyone in DUST? I felt like this was the same problem in Battlefield. There is just no incentive to get into a tank knowing everybody and their grandmother have access to a powerful Anti-Tank solution immediately upon respawning.

The tanks in DUST have two problems: they have no splash damage and they die WAY too quickly by infantry, the one thing they are supposed to suppress. Even a well tanked Soma can die to a single newbie with a Militia Swarm Launcher or Militia AV Grenades.

"Well try to not get in a bad position to get hit with AV Grenades," some of you may say. That isn't the point. People should be saying, "Oh my God they have a tank," instead of ,"Sweet Jesus a full tank! Free Points!"

Now onto tank damage. Its big, but only against other vehicles. Sure, you can just keep popping jeeps with a 80GJ Railgun but I feel that is NOT what a tank should be meant for. Just killing Jeeps. So I would like to see splash damage. Not necessarily from the Railgun, but from the Blaster too.

The Railguns I can see having low splash damage. Its a solid chunk of non explosive metal streaking to its target.

Blasters on the other hand need to change. Having to hit someone square in the chest 4-6 times with a Large tank mounted weapon seems completely idiotic. It's a Large Blaster, not a machine gun. Blasters in the EVE universe fire "globs" of superheated plasma at a target. It should at least have some splash damage.

But that is just my two cents. I understand half of you will disagree with me, but as a Tank driver I just want to express my ideas.

I put forward a suggestion in a thread I made a few weeks back to redo our current HAVs to be Tank Destroyers, and release the MAV as a "tank", since you used WWII as an example.

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BobThe843CakeMan BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 132	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:38:00 - [31] - Quote Tanks are fine right now imo. With the right modules you can make a pretty BA tank. I means indestructible to a point. Even milita tanks with the right modules can be pretty damn powerful. It all comes down to the driver and the modules on his tank. :D
Landari Zeta Exit Wound Heavy Industries 16	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:57:00 - [32] - Quote Obviously half of you don't fully grasp what I was saying. Tanks should act like Tanks are supposed to. Killing infantry, securing positions, etc. The one problem many tank drivers have isn't about 'positioning' or 'staying safe'. It is that a 50k SP scrub who started playing 15 minutes ago has access to weaponry that can kill even the most skilled tank drivers. It is NOT about, "OMG YOU IDIOT DONT GET CAUGHT BY INFANTRY LOL BAD TANK DRIVER QUIT NOW" Its the fact that tanks, for the most part, do not leave an impression. They have far too many counters for the amount of SP people dump into them.
BobThe843CakeMan BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 132	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:03:00 - [33] - Quote Landari Zeta wrote: Obviously half of you don't fully grasp what I was saying. Tanks should act like Tanks are supposed to. Killing infantry, securing positions, etc. The one problem many tank drivers have isn't about 'positioning' or 'staying safe'. It is that a 50k SP scrub who started playing 15 minutes ago has access to weaponry that can kill even the most skilled tank drivers. It is NOT about, "OMG YOU IDIOT DONT GET CAUGHT BY INFANTRY LOL BAD TANK DRIVER QUIT NOW" Its the fact that tanks, for the most part, do not leave an impression. They have far too many counters for the amount of SP people dump into them. yet tank drivers like me can go 60-0 in a game easy. or corp battles only other tanks or most of the enemy team with av can kill me. you obviously have no idea how to fit a tank. at least standard av. proto might be a problem. but i have a standard tank now so im satisfied. :D
SILENTSAM 69 Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 421	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:09:00 - [34] - Quote Finally someone asking for a buff instead of a nerf. That said I am not sure if tanks need much work. They were quite powerful and dominated the battlefield before. They still do damage, but it is now possible to take them out. Also I find there are powerful tanks and some people do know how to fit them to make them quite hard to destroy. That said there is an attack plan for everything, so everything can be taken down by something else with the right preparation.
BobThe843CakeMan BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 132	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:12:00 - [35] - Quote SILENTSAM 69 wrote: Finally someone asking for a buff instead of a nerf. That said I am not sure if tanks need much work. They were quite powerful and dominated the battlefield before. They still do damage, but it is now possible to take them out. Also I find there are powerful tanks and some people do know how to fit them to make them quite hard to destroy. That said there is an attack plan for everything, so everything can be taken down by something else with the right preparation. well they don't need a buff or a nerf. if u buff it they will get nerfed severely and if get nerfed as they are now tanks have no hope. right now is a good middle ground.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:12:00 - [36] - Quote Landari Zeta wrote: Obviously half of you don't fully grasp what I was saying. Tanks should act like Tanks are supposed to. Killing infantry, securing positions, etc. The one problem many tank drivers have isn't about 'positioning' or 'staying safe'. It is that a 50k SP scrub who started playing 15 minutes ago has access to weaponry that can kill even the most skilled tank drivers. It is NOT about, "OMG YOU IDIOT DONT GET CAUGHT BY INFANTRY LOL BAD TANK DRIVER QUIT NOW" Its the fact that tanks, for the most part, do not leave an impression. They have far too many counters for the amount of SP people dump into them. Problem: Militia HAVs don't beat Militia AV unless they're well-fitted. Solution 1: Don't use Militia HAVs. Solution 2: Fit your Militia HAV better. Problem? No problem.
Mr Zitro Imperfects Negative-Feedback 417	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:13:00 - [37] - Quote Anyone who says av gernades are fine is a moron who has never touched vehicles or just hates them all together. Second if militia swarms can go across the map so a forge gun should also or limit it to similar distances. And for the kid having trouble with a soma, get your mechanics level to 5 FIRST and for most. Then get armor upgrades to level 1 and armor reps too. After that get armor hardener to level 1 and use the active hardeners! After that go for large blasters to lvl 2 and use scattered blaster. This is part of tanking for dummies! <--- this book is in no way related to Mr. Zitro's Survival Guide
BobThe843CakeMan BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 132	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:15:00 - [38] - Quote Mr Zitro wrote: Anyone who says av gernades are fine is a moron who has never touched vehicles or just hates them all together. Second if militia swarms can go across the map so a forge gun should also or limit it to similar distances. And for the kid having trouble with a soma, get your mechanics level to 5 FIRST and for most. Then get armor upgrades to level 1 and armor reps too. After that get armor hardener to level 1 and use the active hardeners! After that go for large blasters to lvl 2 and use scattered blaster. This is part of tanking for dummies! <--- this book is in no way related to Mr. Zitro's Survival Guide plus 1. i have to agree with this because it's wat i did. XD. av grenades need to be tweaked but nothing more. i'm sick of nerfs. Lol
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 67	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:50:00 - [39] - Quote I haven't read the whole thread, but a tank out in the open by itself should get destroyed pretty quickly. If it has the proper infantry support around it, then it should be deadly. I think a decent example of this is in Halo 4, specifically on the big map Exile. There is a scorpion tank on that map, and if no one helps the driver, it can get overwhelmed pretty quickly with sticky grenades and rockets/spartan laser. But if the team protects it, and keeps the tank in the background and away from moving into the more tunnel/corridor/smaller parts of the map, then it can be extremely powerful.
Vesta Ren ZionTCD Legacy Rising 33	Posted - 2013.01.31 03:03:00 - [40] - Quote Oh wow, how i love all the people posting here who have NEVER driven a tank in this game. I've played as one for a while now, espectialy earlier in the beta. I've been through times when they were OP, and when they were very very underpowered. Right now its pretty bad (although not as bad as when forge guns had infinite range and milita drops were free, that was a bad time) The missle turret is as useless as always, being only moderitly effective against infantry and useless against vehicles and implacements. The railgun is better as it destroys other tanks, jeeps, and instilations without too many problems, but can't hit infantry to save its life. It doesn't even bother most people, it just hits near by and they keep on going about their buissness. The blaster can actualy kill infantry and makes them run for cover, but without any splash it is almost imposible to hit anyone in an urban setting. So realy none of the weapons are threatening, and its not like the the blaster or missle are designed to kill vehicles either. As for not dying, the militia AV fits make it far too easy for people to simply kill you once they see you on the field. A pair of militia swarm launchers can kill my 5000+ EHP tank in two vollies, well both my heavy and normal rep are running. I'll be the first to admit that my tanking skills are a little under par right now, but when you consider the investment i have made compaired to the investment the two swarm launchers have made, its a little rediculous. 320 k ISK per tank, plus 650 k SP put into vehicle skills, compared to their 0 isk and 0 SP. Ya, that seems balanced, right? AV needs to be a speciality in this game like everything else, and the biggest step in that direction would be the removal of the militia AV fits. The swarm launcher also needs to be looked at, as the range seems rediculous and it does the same damage as a forge gun per hit. 1200 damage per volly on shots that never miss and can't be out run or distracted. And to anyone who talks about positioning, buy your self a militia tank and spend a few minutes driving it around. They're pretty much that speed all the time, unless you sacrifice something in your fit to add an after burner or something. in which case your tank is going to be too thin and you'll be alpha'd by a newberry with his shiny militia swarm launcher. TL;DR Tanks offensive, defensive, and manuvering capabilities are severly lacking, and need to be changed (in a sensable way CCP, i don't want a god tank, just a usefull one) to make them more usefull on the battlefield.

Zekain Kade BetaMax. 931	Posted - 2013.01.31 03:13:00 - [41] - Quote Landari Zeta wrote: Not just Militia tanks. Those are basically on par with Rookie ships in EVE. I have seen Gunloggi's melt from just being poked at by infantry. Then they were ****** fitted tanks.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.31 03:20:00 - [42] - Quote Vesta Ren wrote: 5000+ EHP tank I can do that with a Sica. Even more once I've skilled into Shields properly. Before the reset I broke 6k EHP on a Sica for my tank alt. Are you counting your reps in the EHP for the scenario, though? Because if not, they probably add about 500 to your total when you're up against 2 Militia Swarms. Which isn't a lot, especially if you're an Armour tank. Shield Tanks fare much better in dealing with Swarms. But we get slaughtered by Flux Grenades and Laser Rifles, so it balances out.
Vesta Ren ZionTCD Legacy Rising 33	Posted - 2013.01.31 03:26:00 - [43] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Vesta Ren wrote: 5000+ EHP tank I can do that with a Sica. Are you counting your reps in the EHP for the scenario, though? Because if not, they probably add about 500 to your total when you're up against 2 Militia Swarms. Which isn't a lot, especially if you're an Armour tank. Shield Tanks fare much better in dealing with Swarms. But we get slaughtered by Flux Grenades and Laser Rifles, so it balances out. Thats the point, you can't active armour tank against 2 militia swarms. I was not counting reps, just strait hit points adjusted slightly for resists. Reps got 1 cycle off before i died, and i've been able to out-rep the main blaster turrets on other tanks. It just isn't balanced at all. btw i'm not saying my fit is perfect, or that you couldn't do just as well in a militia tank, but that it shouldn't matter. For the isk investment you could easily set up an infantry-man with proto gear and have him die less, kill more, and get less flame on the forums than a tank driver will.
Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation 172	Posted - 2013.02.02 00:48:00 - [44] - Quote Yes. Players should have access to the AV weapons from the start. Why? Because it's extremely hard to kill a tank without AV equipment. If you say it's not go against a militia tank without a AV weapons. You can have all the cover you want, infinite ammo too. None the less. Earning ISK for a tank isn't that hard to do. Specializing in it is something different. But that's the thing...if you're specilizaing in it, you will know how to not get beaten by militia swarms and blasters. :I I'd hate to say this (not really tho) HTFU.
137H4RGIC WarRavens 26	Posted - 2013.02.03 01:45:00 - [45] - Quote OP, you're just not a smart tank driver. I drive a completely Militia fit tank and effectively get average 20 kills and 2-3 deaths per match. Sometimes I go 30-1. If you're dying as much as you say you are, you're doing it wrong. Part of driving a good tank is having a good team that you can rely on to watch other fields of view. If you have no targets, let your front gunner spot them for you. Use your turret to get your rear right and your top turret to get your rear left. When it comes to killing infantry, I think the blaster turret is well balanced. You SHOULD NOT be able to kill infantry in 1-2 shots. THAT would be OP. Also, work on your driving skills/situational awarenees. Having a mental layout of the place can help you avoid being blown up as you can be rather evasive. By the the enemy team is sick of fighting my tank, half of them are fit up with AV fits. The best part about that, is I let the Blueberries do their jobs. I don't get bloodthirsty and try to make that next kill (well, sometimes I do, and it usually gets me killed, but it's rare). Being that the enemy team is half AV, that allows your team of assault and heavies. Those boys will tear up the AV if you let them. As far as tanks go, if you get a REALLY high KDR, that's because the enemy team won't stop and buckle down to take you out. If you're against a skilled team, you'll need to rely on your blueberries more, accept the fact you won't get many kills as you're the biggest target on the field, and be happy with the 8+ kills that you do get. Your role is EXTREME suppressive cover fire. Quit QQing and start driving better and recognizing your role. Sincerely, Caldari Militia Blaster Tank Pilot Avg K/D 20/2
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2013.02.03 02:15:00 - [46] - Quote Landari Zeta wrote: I love tanks. I really do. I have one problem about them though. They aren't OP. You are all probably thinking, "Wow what a tard, wanting OP tanks!" Everything else is OP, why not have the tanks scale up with the rest of everything? Lets think about it for a minute. A tank should be an Infantry Support vehicle. It should make a presence on the battlefield, forcing infantry to take cover and call in their own tanks to kill you. During WWII the Sherman tank was meant to keep infantry huddled up in a corner until they can call in some air support or have a Tiger take it out. That is how tanks should be handled, like they were originally designed. Every German soldier didn't have an Anti-Tank rocket, why should everyone in DUST? I felt like this was the same problem in Battlefield. There is just no incentive to get into a tank knowing everybody and their grandmother have access to a powerful Anti-Tank solution immediately upon respawning. The tanks in DUST have two problems: they have no splash damage and they die WAY too quickly by infantry, the one thing they are supposed to suppress. Even a well tanked Soma can die to a single newbie with a Militia Swarm Launcher or Militia AV Grenades. "Well try to not get in a bad position to get hit with AV Grenades," some of you may say. That isn't the point. People should be saying, "Oh my God they have a tank," instead of ,"Sweet Jesus a full tank! Free Points!" Now onto tank damage. Its big, but only against other vehicles. Sure, you can just keep popping jeeps with a 80GJ Railgun but I feel that is NOT what a tank should be meant for. Just killing Jeeps. So I would like to see splash damage. Not necessarily from the Railgun, but from the Blaster too. The Railguns I can see having low splash damage. Its a solid chunk of non explosive metal streaking to its target. Blasters on the other hand need to change. Having to hit someone square in the chest 4-6 times with a Large tank mounted weapon seems completely idiotic. It's a Large Blaster, not a machine gun. Blasters in the EVE universe fire "globs" of superheated plasma at a target. It should at least have some splash damage. But that is just my two cents. I understand half of you will disagree with me, but as a Tank driver I just want to express my ideas. I put forward a suggestion in a thread I made a few weeks back to redo our current HAVs to be Tank Destroyers, and release the MAV as a "tank", since you used WWII as an example.
Void Echo A.I. 26	Posted - 2013.02.03 02:41:00 - [47] - Quote Hehehe this whole thread is making me laugh, to those that are complaining about your tanks being destroyed, calm down & think, I have a gunnlogi tank with 6020 shields and 1000 armor, 2 11.5% damage reduction modules on my tank with 2 shield extenders that give 1710.0 shield each and a light clarity shield booster, I have an 80gj compressed railgun as my main cannon, a 20gj compressed particle accelerator and a 20gj scattered neutron blaster. I'm not one to brag but I have an amazing tank, iv only lost it when I'm out in the open surrounded by enemy forges and swarms when my shields are over 50% down & that rarely happens . Here's my suggestion, don't use militia tanks, they stand no chance again heavy firepower no matter how much shields and armor, and don't put yourself in situations where your trapped. I'm actually glad that people are starting to fight back against tanks, it would be boring for me if there wasn't anyone shooting at me with a forge or swarm launcher, I do however agree that as the main tank killers level up the equipment, the tanks should be equally leveled because of balance.
137H4RGIC WarRavens 26	Posted - 2013.02.03 02:43:00 - [48] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Landari Zeta wrote: I love tanks. I really do. I have one problem about them though. They aren't OP. You are all probably thinking, "Wow what a tard, wanting OP tanks!" Everything else is OP, why not have the tanks scale up with the rest of everything? Lets think about it for a minute. A tank should be an Infantry Support vehicle. It should make a presence on the battlefield, forcing infantry to take cover and call in their own tanks to kill you. During WWII the Sherman tank was meant to keep infantry huddled up in a corner until they can call in some air support or have a Tiger take it out. That is how tanks should be handled, like they were originally designed. Every German soldier didn't have an Anti-Tank rocket, why should everyone in DUST? I felt like this was the same problem in Battlefield. There is just no incentive to get into a tank knowing everybody and their grandmother have access to a powerful Anti-Tank solution immediately upon respawning. The tanks in DUST have two problems: they have no splash damage and they die WAY too quickly by infantry, the one thing they are supposed to suppress. Even a well tanked Soma can die to a single newbie with a Militia Swarm Launcher or Militia AV Grenades. "Well try to not get in a bad position to get hit with AV Grenades," some of you may say. That isn't the point. People should be saying, "Oh my God they have a tank," instead of ,"Sweet Jesus a full tank! Free Points!" Now onto tank damage. Its big, but only against other vehicles. Sure, you can just keep popping jeeps with a 80GJ Railgun but I feel that is NOT what a tank should be meant for. Just killing Jeeps. So I would like to see splash damage. Not necessarily from the Railgun, but from the Blaster too. The Railguns I can see having low splash damage. Its a solid chunk of non explosive metal streaking to its target. Blasters on the other hand need to change. Having to hit someone square in the chest 4-6 times with a Large tank mounted weapon seems completely idiotic. It's a Large Blaster, not a machine gun. Blasters in the EVE universe fire "globs" of superheated plasma at a target. It should at least have some splash damage. But that is just my two cents. I understand half of you will disagree with me, but as a Tank driver I just want to express my ideas. I put forward a suggestion in a thread I made a few weeks back to redo our current HAVs to be Tank Destroyers, and release the MAV as a "tank", since you used WWII as an example. Not a good idea, tanks can already be set up as tank destroyers just attach rail guns, tanks dont need to worry about tank destroyers - additionally that's a pretty narrow role to fill for a vehicle class.
Void Echo A.I. 26	Posted - 2013.02.03 02:45:00 - [49] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: OP, you're just not a smart tank driver. I drive a completely Militia fit tank and effectively get average 20 kills and 2-3 deaths per match. Sometimes I go 30-1. If you're dying as much as you say you are, you're doing it wrong. Part of driving a good tank is having a good team that you can rely on to watch other fields of view. If you have no targets, let your front gunner spot them for you. Use your turret to get your rear right and your top turret to get your rear left. When it comes to killing infantry, I think the blaster turret is well balanced. You SHOULD NOT be able to kill infantry in 1-2 shots. THAT would be OP. Also, work on your driving skills/situational awarenees. Having a mental layout of the place can help you avoid being blown up as you can be rather evasive. By the the enemy team is sick of fighting my tank, half of them are fit up with AV fits. The best part about that, is I let the Blueberries do their jobs. I don't get bloodthirsty and try to make that next kill (well, sometimes I do, and it usually gets me killed, but it's rare). Being that the enemy team is half AV, that allows your team of assault and heavies. Those boys will tear up the AV if you let them. As far as tanks go, if you get a REALLY high KDR, that's because the enemy team won't stop and buckle down to take you out. If you're against a skilled team, you'll need to rely on your blueberries more, accept the fact you won't get many kills as you're the biggest target on the field, and be happy with the 8+ kills that you do get. Your role is EXTREME suppressive cover fire. Quit QQing and start driving better and recognizing your role. Sincerely, Caldari Militia Blaster Tank Pilot Avg K/D 20/2 Dude, right on, as a fellow tank driver you have my respect. Be a ***** to kill but sweet to ally with.
Mars El'Theran Red Rogue Squadron Heart 0f Darkness 52	Posted - 2013.02.03 02:58:00 - [50] - Quote I personally have an issue with Missile launchers on tanks; I really wish people would stop fitting them as they are useless against almost everything most of the time. They also seem to fire off to the right from time to time, and either way, are only useful against a stationary vehicle target due to flight time, launch delay, and general inaccuracy. Aside from that, I think Tanks are fine as they are; leave them alone.

Landari Zeta Exit Wound Heavy Industries 16	Posted - 2013.02.03 23:12:00 - [51] - Quote Been playing with the Gunloggi and Madrugar fits recently. My opinion has changed slightly. I can consistently go 20/0 now that I have been messing with the tank modules a bit more and I have a nice setup going. In regards to AV Weapons: Keep the Militia Forge Guns Keep the Militia Swarm Launchers AV Grenades should go. If people want to kill a tank they should use a rocket launcher or an appropriate AT weapon. AV Grenades are stupid, fictional, and take little fitting requirements. I have no problem with Flux grenades. Those actually make sense. I understand the need for an average trooper to be able to defend himself against a tank, but don't use a grenade of all things to kill a tank through its armor. Its just silly.
JohnDS Wolf Exit Wound Heavy Industries 10	Posted - 2013.02.03 23:36:00 - [52] - Quote Current costs for M1 Abrams 5million US dollors. cost for an US soldier (currently) 850000 US dollors. Anyone else wana complaine about costs? serious, infiltry are ALWAYS going to be serverly more cost effective. get use to it.
Shledder OMNI Endeavors 4	Posted - 2013.02.03 23:55:00 - [53] - Quote The tanks are fine as is and players should always have access to a build to take out a tank. For those who drives tanks, it is up to you to stick with infantry and have them seek out anybody with AV grenades or rockets. If somebody can sit in a tank the whole game racking up kills (by themselves with no infantry around) it's no longer a team based game and needs to be changed.


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